| Author | Message | ||
     Aaron |
USA ... production units have just started trickling in. I apologize for the delay but it looks like it won't be much longer. This whole spring has just been nuts for getting parts. I don't know why, it just seems like every vendor has got things backordered. You wouldn't believe how much WIP we have sitting around waiting for one piece here or there to complete the order. That's money, not to mention frustrated customers. Drives me crazy. | ||
| Timbo |
Ditto on the Firebolt. I love mine too. It has the factory race kit BTW, but what do I know Dyna? I just ride the thing. Sure, fifteen more horses to the rear wheel *sounds* great. Who wouldn't want that? Right? I've *thought* about it too. After all guys like you just keep saying how underpowered they are. I've also *ridden* my Bolt pretty hard, at length and in various conditions, and found that it wheelies pretty easy out of first and the front end will even loft when shifting hard into second. I'm ok with that, but I've also had the back tire begin to break loose when accellerating hard out of a corner too. This I didn't expect when it happened because the bike is so planted and sure in the corners. Admittedly I was pushing it harder and harder when this happened and all was ok, but it got me to thinking, do I really *need* fifteen more ponies out back? Would it just get me into trouble? Hmmm...maybe, maybe not. I'm sure as time goes on and my skill/comfort level increases I'll be able to effectively use more, safely, but for now, I've come to the conclusions that 1) I'm not trying to win any dyno shootouts. And 2)This bike is a whole-lot-o FUN as is. Timbo | ||
| Bykergeek |
Timbo Says:"This bike is a whole-lot-o FUN as is." WINNER!! WINNER!!! WINNER!! (Message edited by bykergeek on May 11, 2003) | ||
| Dynarider |
A stock DDFI Buell might make 85 RWHP in finely tuned stock form, if you were lucky. Add the full blown race kit for $1,200 and guess what, you got the same 85 RWHP, maybe 87 RWHP if you were really lucky. Was that a shit deal too? And again, the XB9's are damn near 50 pounds lighter than their predecessors. Blake, you as well as I have seen quite a few dyno runs from stock Tubers outting out 85hp with no problem at all. How many stock XB's are putting out the same power? Vik didnt have shit done to his motor & he was putting down mid 90's. HP in the 90's is so incredibly easy to do with the tubers..not quite as easy or as cheap to do with the XB's. I recall once we were debating the quater mile dragstrip times of the XB9's versus the tube framers. I found the times for a DDFI S3 and an XB9R, both tested by Motorcyclist and both corrected to standard conditions with the XB9R being two tenths quicker than the S3. You guffawed the fact that I compared the XB9R to an S3 instead of an X1. Maybe you don't understand that the DDFI S3's and X1's share the exact same engine and are virtually the same weight, and that the S3 has superior aerodynamics? The XB9's are a big step up performance wise for Buell. And I also pointed out to you that you found the 1 qtr mile time that was slower than an XB. I posted 5-6 examples of bikes ranging from M2's to X1's & S1's that all posted significantly faster times. You stated that the times you posted were the only ones you had seen. And then I asked you why if the XB is such a superior bike in every way to the tube frames, why dont you own one? You run a Buell oriented web site & promote the brand, why not put your money where your mouth is..you basically stated that you really didnt care for the bikes & were happy with your M2. You will notice in this entire deal I am not knocking Buells..in fact I am actually defending the Tube framers as I feel they are a better bike. Im not saying they are more reliable, but I think they better fit the essence of what a Buell should be..Rude crude & loud. I love the X1..just wish they could get over that damn reliability issue. The XB's dont turn my crank at all..kinda generic looking. I also feel a tube frame bike will handle just as well as an XB. The XB is not some magical machine that simply by allowing anyone to ride it they will be a track star. Dave states that he is turning faster times on the XB then he did on the X1. Dave for 1 thing is a hell of a rider & I will tell you he will give anyone here a run for their money & I would put my money on him. A lot of it could simply be due to the fact that he is on a bike that he has been told 100 times he will be faster on. Sorta like giving someone a placebo & miraclously their problems all go away. I dont doubt that he is faster now, but the more track days & the more experience you build up you will naturally get faster no matter what bike you are on. You say the XB's are a big step in performance..how???? The numbers are less, the qtr mile times are slower. If you mean by what you can get outta them like Aaron is doing..hell you can do that with the tubers as well. FMJ just got 156hp out his aerocharged bike..Wes & Pammy are getting 127rwhp outta her bike. Its not a matter of what bike is better, its actually how much HP do you want & how deep are your pockets? | ||
| Dynarider |
Timbo..you can never have enough hp. Too much is just about right. I see these ami shootouts & see folks with Harleys putting out 150+ hp & think to myself..holy shit would that ever be a riot to ride. Granted these arent nowhere near stock motors, but if I had the $$ I would love to have one. Just picked up a new Andrews cam for mine the other day, going to try out the Yost tube in my Mikuni & this fall the heads are coming off. Havent decided between having Nallin, Hoban, or Branch do em. My goal is 95-100 hp at the rear & I know its easily doable. Last dyno run I had was with stock heads, Andrew EV3 cam & a reworked CV carb & Khrome werks pipes with AR cones & the bike was putting out just shy of 75hp at the rear. That was on the S&S mobile Dyno. Plenty of power in the heads to get & with the new carb & cam I think I will be close...have seen similar combos right in the neighborhood. Going to be fun trying anyways. | ||
| Roc |
Daves - A previous post of yours follows: "I've sold 5 Wileyco pipes so far. But you wouldn't like them because they put out 4 less HP on the same bike, the same day and are 420.00 list price which after discount is 378.00. They are a bunch lighter and sound and look good. Our dyno put the power gains between the Buell can and the Latus almost exactly the same" I read that to say that the Wileyco makes less power than stock, is that correct? The Latus and Buell systems make almost exactly the same power gains, what other changes are required by each system? Is that just the Latus can, as they state on their site, against a Buell race kit? Would you buy the Latus again? (Message edited by roc on May 12, 2003) | ||
| Blake |
No, I've not seen many stock DDFI tube framers putting out better than 85RWHP. If what you say is true, Vik's is the only one I've heard of that made better than 90RWHP with just a race kit. You are prone to exaggeration... on one hand you offer that the XB9's make less than 70 rwhp, but on the other you proffer that many stock tube frame Buells make over 85 RWHP. I've not seen either of those statements to be true to any significant extent. None of the 1/4 mile times you posted in our prior debate refuted the Motorcyclist data. You cannot take separate uncorrected tests by different entities and use them to gauge relative performance. I do not promote Buell. I ride a Buell. I prefer my Nallinized '97 Cyclone to any other Buell, period. If I could though, I'd have one of Aaron and Brian's 1200 kitted XB9R's for the track and keep my Cyclone for street duty. Maybe someday. You are free to believe that a 40 pound lighter bike with better suspension and shorter wheelbase and quicker steering will not handle better. Seems a bit ridiculous to do so though. Troll on. Hey Dave, did you get that? It's merely the power of positive thinking that is getting you around the track faster on the XB9R. Couldn't have anything to do with a completely different motorcycle, nah, it's all in your head. Silly us. I guess Don Canet fell victim to the same thing when he piloted an XB9R to a virtual tie for 1st place with an F4i in the rigoeous CW street course handling competition. We better tell Eric Wood about this phenomenon, since he too apparently fell victim to the same power of positive thinking when he won teh FUSA Sportbike race last year at Loudon on a Kosko XB9R. The RRW review must have suffered the same fate. Silly road racer reviewing the Hal's Buell XB9R racebike on the track. WTF does he know? Turns out it was all just positive expectations just making him think the bike handled so well, better even than the 748RS. Foolish boy. And to think all this was revealed to us by a guy who denies the need to counter-steer to get a bike to lean/turn more quickly. Time for a ride. Gonna fire up the M2 and kill some East Texas bugs. (Message edited by blake on May 12, 2003) | ||
| Dynarider |
Eric wood won because the lead bike crashed I believe. Ya its still a win tho. And you just love to argue as much as i do...the counter steering debate was about low speed, battletrax type events. Posted several pics & even had other people who do similar events say that yes you dont need to counter steer in LOW speed events. Body lean & a slight movement of the bars is all that is needed. | ||
| Dynarider |
None of the 1/4 mile times you posted in our prior debate refuted the Motorcyclist data. You cannot take separate uncorrected tests by different entities and use them to gauge relative performance Umm, the tests I listed were all corrected for sea level, etc. I gave dates of the publishings as well as the mags they were in. They are just as relative if not more so than your 1 posting. I gave 5-6 examples. | ||
| Dynarider |
Time for a ride. Gonna fire up the M2 and kill some East Texas bugs. Wish I could say the same, been raining with 25-30 mph winds all damn day. Supposed to be shitty all week long...would much rather be riding than typing. | ||
| Daves |
Roc, On our broken dyno  the stock bikes put out about 68 HP, with the race ecm,air filter and the Wileyco it peaked at 72. something. It does get rid of the dip in the TQ curve. Same set up but with the Buell race muffler we get 76. something, same with the Latus. Would I buy a Latus again? Good question.I like it OK, not loud enough for me but might be for you. The paint burning off in the first 100 miles kind of sucks. I think they are going to powder coat them now. I think if I had it all to do over again I'd take a Buell muffler, which is less money,paint or powder coat it black and put it on. I wanted to run a Force pipe but they weren't and still aren't available,soon though. I would like to try out the new Jardine that is available too. I really don't care for the CHROME exhuast tips on the Latus, looks kind of cheesy to me. I'm waiting for my hand built header to get done, maybe this week! Ride to the edge! It's all in my head. Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center | ||
| Dynarider |
On our broken dyno the stock bikes put out about 68 HP, with the race ecm,air filter and the Wileyco it peaked at 72. something. Dave, so your numbers are coming up pretty much as I said the Buell were..in the 60's for hp on a stock bike. Yet when I state those are the types of numbers I have seen being produced I am being negative???  Perhaps you guys need to buy one of those "happy dynos" that will make everyones bike appear to be an AMA superbike? Im almost suprised someone here hasnt said your dyno sucks or you guys dont know how to operate it. If you guys get the chance, why not take one of the stock XB mufflers & modify it like in the drawing I posted & see what kinda numbers it produces? I realize you are a dealer & your goal is to sell as many bikes, mufflers, tires, etc as possible. But for folks in a budget crunch it is an alternative to laying out big $$$. | ||
| Dynarider |
I really don't care for the CHROME exhuast tips on the Latus, looks kind of cheesy to me. But they would look so cool with the matching chrome heel guards & passenger peg brackets. Blake, I mentioned that I thought the "fetal pig" was basically a stock muffler with 2 exhaust tips in it & you ridiculed the idea. Has anyone opened one up yet to actually see what the exhaust flow is??? I doubt its any different than the stocker. Same exact shape muffler, & you can only fit the required pipes & bends for them inside in a certain configuration. I would like to see one that has been tossed aside by someone & cut it open just for the hell of it. | ||
| Aaron |
Dave: when you look at how the dyno works, you see that it's an incredibly simple device with almost nothing to go wrong. All it does is detect each revolution of the drum and calculate horsepower and torque from the acceleration rate. So the only sources of error are variations in the mass of the drum, friction in the pillow block bearings, and the correction process. It's really a very simple design. A few years ago, MCN did a comparison where they took a bike to several different SoCal Dynojet shops and had it tested. The total range of numbers was less than 2% apart. We have 2 dyno's, one with an eddy brake unit and one without, built a couple years apart, and they read the same. The stock bike results off them are very consistent with what the magazines are showing, too. I'm curious why you're only seeing 68hp from stock XB's. Could you post one of these 68hp charts? How many bikes have shown this? Is it a Dynojet inertia dyno? Is it in a well ventilated place? Did they take the bike into the limiter? How often do you guys grease the pillow block bearings? Does it have the automatic weather station? If so, do the temp/barometric pressure/humidity readings shown in Winpep reflect reality? There's gotta be an explanation. (Message edited by aaron on May 12, 2003) | ||
| Darthane |
Dyna, you can have mine next year. I'll be dumping it for either a new Pro Series one or perhaps one of these complete Force kits they're talking about, but I doubt that 'cause I'm not willing to spend that kind of money for another 6 or 7 horsepower. My bike has consistently run high 70s and low 80s on the same dyno after being kitted. The lowest one was the last, after the bike had sat all winter on the same fluids (I know, I'm a bad boy), and pretty much everyone agreed it was running 3-5HP on the low side. And you know what? I don't care. See you guys on the NE tour. Bryan | ||
| Fasteddieb |
<<exact>> well, sorta... It's a bit shorter (and lighter)  | ||
| Daves |
Aaron, What numbers are you guys getting from the stock XBs? I'll ask the shop if they have greased the thing. It is a Dyno Jet 150 with an eddy brake upgrade. Should be ventilated enough, the overhead door open. | ||
| Aaron |
Of probably a dozen or so stockers we've tested between the 2 dyno's, they've all fallen in the 73-77hp range. It's an upgraded 150? I would assume the electronics were also upgraded at the same time to the "Dynoware EX" stack with the weather station, as I *believe* you need the new stuff to run the eddy brake unit. And you're probably using Winpep. So the numbers ought to be right. The only thing to watch for is that the extra inertia of the eddy brake unit mandates a different "data48.cfg" file to get accurate readings, but I suspect y'all have the right one, your numbers would be WAY low without it. I once used a single roller version of the data48.cfg file on my dual roller dyno and the power was about 25% low. I dunno, but there must be an explanation. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Darthane, have you been back to the dragstrip with your firebolt lately? Just curious to see what your bike is running and have you improved your times and mph. | ||
| Daves |
Thanks Aaron, I'll have to check on some things. It is a Dyno Jet 250, my bad. Ride to the edge! Dave | ||
| Daves |
I need to talk to you about getting one of those Force set ups. Give me a call when you get a chance. Ride to the edge! Dave 1-800-342-7539 ext 14 | ||
| Aaron |
Well, a 250 should have all the latest stuff. That's what we have, our main dyno is the dual-roller version of a 250. So that doesn't explain it. Hell, I don't know. But 68hp is awfully low for a stock domestic XB. | ||
| Daves |
Guess I'll have to dyno some more of them to see for sure. It just seems we never get big numbers that some others do? Thanks Ride to the edge! Dave | ||
| Skully |
Dyna, Take a look at "From Cruiser to Sport Bike - An XB9S Rider's Log by Keith Thrash..." under the "Tale Section". There you will see the dyno chart for my stock XB and then with K&N filter plus race ECM. My bike in stock trim put out 75 RWHP. Since the dyno runs were completed, I've added a D&D muffler. I like the way the muffler looks and sounds and plan to get it back on the dyno in the next couple of weeks to see how it works with the race ECM. I have a CBR600 F3 that is fully race prepped. The F3 is probably a little faster above 100mph, but I really don't care. The XB is just so darned much fun to ride. I've ridden the F3 on the street and it simply has no soul. When I'm on the XB, every where I stop people wander up and ask "what is that cool looking/sounding bike?" Blake and I just returned from a trip to Northwest Arkansas. We put 1400 miles on the bikes in four days. I've put over 120,000 miles on bikes over the last 10 or 11 years. This was about as much fun as I've ever had. When Blake invited me to go to the new bike show in Dallas last fall, I had just purchased the XB. I was concerned that I might see something that I liked better. Well, I didn't and after last weekend, if I went out to buy a replacement I would make the same choice today. Don't get me wrong, there are some really cool Italian bikes, but I'll just stick with my little XB. Keith | ||
| Al_lighton |
Blake, FYI, my 99S3 was dyno'd at 92HP with a Race air cleaner, Race ECM, and stock header with either a V&H or Two Brothers can. So Vik's isn't the only one out there. Come to think of it, I think Josh recently said his did that as well. I don't think low 90's is all that uncommon out of race kit DDFI bikes. Buell did claim 101 at the crank stock. Seems reasonable to bet that the race parts are good for a few more ponies, and the losses to the rear wheel between 10-15%. Al | ||
| Dynarider |
Tsk tsk Al, Blake says I exaggerate & that Vik is the only one he might have heard of getting 90's out of his X1. The Xb's are by far the superior machine when it comes to producing HP  | ||
| Daves |
Thanks for the call Justin. Ride to the edge! Dave | ||
| Darthane |
Ar15ls1, No, I haven't been to the track since the second and last trip my riding group and I made. I don't know if I will get back out there this year or not. The best time I had documented was a 12.200@112.49mph, and I was pretty damned happy with that considering my woeful inexperience at the quarter mile. Its also the best documented time of anyone in our group (comprised of several M2s, a X1, and a S3), so unless someone beats it and I have to go defend my honor I probably won't even bother going back. The bike's much more fun on the twisted roads...now if only there were any around here. Bryan | ||
| Aaron |
I didn't even know about this page ... it has dyno sheets showing 8 different stock XB9's tested on 6 different dyno's. Excluding the Buell-provided sheet which shows something just over 80hp, the range of results is 73.0 to 79.0hp, and that 79.0 was a 5th gear pull. A 4th gear pull on the same bike netted 76.0. So yeah, there's something wrong with 68hp from a stock XB9, either the bike or the dyno or the way the test was done. Funny thing about that chart from Buell, it claims to show "Corrected Rear-Wheel Torque". If it's rear wheel torque, why does it cross the horsepower at 5252 engine rpm? | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Thanks Darthane. You did say that you beat an X1 and an s3 in a drag race. Once again , the xb's are faster than most people think! (Nothing agaist the tube framers) |
