| Author |
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Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:01 am: | 
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Brineusaf,
Troll on....
I`m Not from Germany, So perhaps you know more than us here in North America,
Perhaps I should send you my m0tor and you can go at it..
(Message edited by hogs on November 19, 2006) |
Alex
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:10 am: |
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Hogs said:
"Anyways Alex,
You are still losing me buddy, I too have been working on HArleys/Top Fuelers at one time as well,Well for 25 Plus years, so All I was asking for was a ball park for your numbers, for the 1450 kit, Wow, ya think its Top Secret stuff or something... "
Having that said, Iīm sure You are able to estimate the ball park for a 1430 engine on You own (funny how people get strange when You donīt tell them numbers). By the way maximum numbers are pretty non-saying anything. Iīm sure that You as an engine expert know that a dyno-shootout engine looks pretty impressive when just speaking of max. hp or torque but it might be a bunch of s...t when You want to ride with it around town. So not talking about numbers is not a matter of "Top Secret" but just a matter of "Not really saying anything".
If You like You can tell me what You would expect from a 1430 engine with stock cams and stock compression. Then I can get a feeling if Your and mine expectations are in the same ballpark. Go for it.
Regards
Alex |
Alex
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:14 am: |
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Please,
donīt start fighting for such a ridiculous reason. Itīs not worth it. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:18 am: |
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Please,
donīt start fighting for such a ridiculous reason. Itīs not worth it.
+1 |
Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:28 am: |
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Please,
donīt start fighting for such a ridiculous reason. Itīs not worth it
+100
Alex , IF ya read up above as to what I AM guessing at , and only Guessing at when I replied to CharlyeFun up above...
You tell me how far I am off... |
Alex
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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Hogs said:
"Alex , IF ya read up above as to what I AM guessing at , and only Guessing at when I replied to CharlyeFun up above...
power guessing here as Have NOT seen any 12`s reported on this board or any wheres out there but say what 110-115 RWHP 95-100 RWTorque Just guessing..
You tell me how far I am off..."
Sorry, Hogs, didnīt remember Your guessed numbers above. With those numbers Iīd say You are a pretty realistic man.
All the best
Alex |
Uawjesse
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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I have a question. Has anyone thought about how much power an xb 12's transmission and belt drive system can handle? The machine work, parts and labor for this conversion is likely pretty expensive. I would not be very happy with dropping a bunch of cash on the motor only to destroy the transmission. I would think a few upgrades would be necessary to beef up the trans, possibly a chain conversion as well, More $$$. Not a mechanic, just my 2 cents |
Mainstreamer
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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Alex, I agree with you about the providing flakey absolute numbers. How do you feel about providing some indication in relative terms. Like % of increase?
It would be nice if you would put something on the table. thx..
Paul |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
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Damn internet card took a shit so I missed your reply Hogs.
Sure, send me your motor.
I could use a spare to tinker with.
I just didn't think it was very hard to understand what he said, yet you stay persistant. What gives?
You, having experience as you stated... know what to expect, correct? |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 02:35 pm: |
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Jesse, contact Saintly or his crew for info on a dirt cheap, very reliable chain conversion.
Hogs... "troll on"? Serious? I've posted quite a bit on here, and just because I spoke up about you nagging him makes me a troll? I have hardly posted anything offensive or anything even considered trolling (with the exception of the new buell thread), I've helped others on here, and have volunteered to help more than once, and have even assisted a fellow badwebber in a time of need. Don't scrutinize me! |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 03:02 pm: |
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Kyle,
Good point. We should all, you included, avoid entering into personal criticisms here. This is not the place for it.
Alex,
What type of dyno are you using? A Dynojet will not allow the fudging of drive ratio. It measures RWHP and determines engine torque based upon the engine speed which is read from the inductive pickups on the spark plug wire.
(Message edited by blake on November 19, 2006) |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:40 am: |
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Blake,
I agree somewhat, but it's odd how you comment on this "hang-up", and ignore the rest of the board. Coincidence? |
Alex
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 03:08 am: |
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Blake said:
"Alex,
What type of dyno are you using? A Dynojet will not allow the fudging of drive ratio. It measures RWHP and determines engine torque based upon the engine speed which is read from the inductive pickups on the spark plug wire. "
Blake, I pretty much know how a dyno works (although I donīt know any dyno that really "measures" RWHP). Over here there are Dynojets, Fuchs, Ammerschläger, Bosch, Superflow and probably many more. So all types of dynos which allow all types of failures and manipulations. I use an eddy current brake dyno.
@ Uawjesse: no problems up to now with transmissions or drive trains.
@Paul: as I told Hogs his guessed numbers look pretty realistic (take a look above). Hope that helps. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 05:15 am: |
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I never heard of the rapid bike ecm. Their website has a listing for a Uly.
I need to learn more about this.
We have been using the Rapidbike adjustable ECM on our race bike all year. Think of an improved and more powerful Power Commander and you won't be far off.
It needs to be set up on a dyno and works incredibly well 
You can alter fuelling and ignition throughout the rev range to your heart's content, although to do so you need the Pro software package from Rapidbike to do this (There are two software packages available: the 'customer' software that only allows limited adjustment, and the 'Pro' software that allows full adjustment).
It does not give the option of adjusting individual cylinders like the Direct Link, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing  Sometimes too much adjustability can be a bad thing in some hands.
Check out the company web site at http://www.rapidbike.it/
I agree with Alex about the dyno numbers. Too much weight is put on dyno charts and numbers, whereas in fact they can be very misleading at best and sometimes plain false at worst. |
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 07:18 am: |
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hi................the theories about the importance of the dyno runs have and RWHP and what can be manipulated are very interesting reading indeed...............the subject is always handled in the same way by the same people no matter what Buell Forum you read.........nevertheless it is actually quite funny that when the same people talk about the best way how to set up your engine following modifications...............the dyno is always quoted as the reference and the "tuning assessment tool" of choice........an there is always the same reluctance "to let the cat out of the bag (forgive me this crude translation of a german idiom".....hmmmmmmmmmmm........trojans point is good..............the dyno does not tell you if your engine has that crucial bit of punch when you exit a particular corner as this depends on the gearing..............nevertheless the dynorun can certainly show what the modification has delivered................and this is what people like to see.
Will they ever get it. NOPE..........
tiger |
Alex
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 09:36 am: |
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Tiger,
You are my personal hero. Again You saved the world with Your wisdom.
Still You forgot to mention the importance of reducing the rotating masses and a link to Your homepage which is really a bunch of fun. I especially like the "there is no room for the top crankcase mount screw on a Big Bore engine" part. That is a real good one.
Alex |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 06:00 pm: |
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Alex,
You are right. I got lazy and hoped you wouldn't notice. Inertial dynos only actually measure the time intervals between each complete rotation of the drum. From that most basic measured data, given the inertia of the drum, RWHP is calculated based upon the change in time interval from one drum rotation to the next.
I was wondering what brand dyno you typically use.
I can assure you that Cycle Rama for one and other prominent H-D/Buell performance shops here only produce dyno tests of high integrity. Their records pretty much prove it, whether it be a Land Speed Record or Drag Racing championships, or dyno shootout wins, the reputable shops here can be relied upon to produce honest dynomometer test results. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 09:41 pm: |
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The real value of dyno readouts is in the shape of the curves on both the HP and torque. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:01 am: |
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Reducing the rotating masses, inertia really, can show up in an inertial dyno test, but not at all for a brake dyno test.
I agree that consistency in dyno testing is a serious issue and that results can be affected by many many factors. |
Tigerbythetail
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 06:00 am: |
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Dear Alex
Your excellent reputation in particularly in Germany earns you an enormous amount of business from all over the world and your record breaking engines are winning championships all over Europe and the Staates. Your are such a brilliant expert that I am humbled any time I read your pearls of wisdom.
Still you always get personal and you are so easy to excite. I am surprised that a busy man like yourself is still able to write so much about the little he does........
tiger |
Alex
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 06:24 am: |
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Gäääääähhhhhhhhn.
Gute Nacht John Boy Tiger. |
Freezerburn
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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>>"the real value of dyno readouts is in the shape of the curves on both the HP and torque"
I agree. But I would include with regards to any mods you want to be comparing curves to a stock base line or just to see how the curves change with each mod.
I completely understand Alex's reluctance to talk numbers with the variability amongst the different dynos. But one thing that would be consistent would be the percent improvement over stock (for max HP and torque only). I think before and after dyno charts are really required to get a sense of the overall improvements. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 08:03 am: |
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And.... Another big bore post DIES... |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 01:19 pm: |
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all threads die sooner or later.
Is there more to be said on this one? Questions unanswered?
Re-state them if there are. |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 02:41 pm: |
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Yes - I thought all XB's came with 10.5 compression, now I see them listed at 10.0 - when did that change?
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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my 2004 XB12 was built in july of 2003. The manual lists compression ratio at 10 to 1
Cranking pressure is 160 psi front, and 150 PSI rear. |
Sflabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 02:12 am: |
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Not necessarily done, I thought it was here, but it turns out on another forum, someone mated the V-rod injectors (read 41% larger flow characteristics) to a turbo XB. Wouldn't this be similar to the needs of a big bore kit?
http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?t=1326&highlight=Fuel+injectors |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 04:28 pm: |
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If the flow rate matched with demand and the pulse frequency and duration then it could be done.
It can get tricky trying to balance these factors, but not impossible.
I understood that the stock throttle body on a 12 would limit hp to around 120hp or so due to
the diameter of the bore limiting the amount of air that can flow in. Is this incorrect? |
Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 04:39 pm: |
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Glad this thread is alive again...
I think Rev. performance was doing some work on boring the trottle bodies and also adjustable fuel regulators and even larger injecters I think.. Perhaps they can tune in here and give what info they have come up with now as it was a few weeks ago, And I thought at that time they said they wd. get back on this the next day or so, still waiting..
Once again this was for the 12 models with the 1450/1500 kits... |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 04:11 am: |
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Bump |
Alex
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 07:38 am: |
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Hogs,
Iīm experimenting with a 90" engine with some "minor" modifications (if You understand what I mean). Right at the moment it doesnīt look like the stock fuel system will get along with it easy so I will probably need to investigate further.
Still this engine wonīt be a street performance engine. So for a street engine the stock system is ok.
Btw, did You read the post about a 88 engine on e-bay putting 120 hp and 120 ftlbs on the rear wheel? I might get along with the horsepower number but the torque number is where I start shaking my head.
Stay tuned. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 08:16 am: |
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Hey Alex,
Hows it going, I have heard something about fuel pressure regulator needing attention there, just rumors though...
Keep us posted on how ya make out, You seem to be the only one at this time working on the 90 incher , This is something I am Very Interested in.. Yeah 120 HP wd. be possible not sure that is RW though but 120 Torque seems to be on the high side thats for sure especially if they are saying RW And if so How long that sucker wd. lastttttttttt...
Keep on Trucking.. Good Work |
Alex
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Hogs,
I will keep You informed if You like. But it will take some time as I have dozens of engines and heads laying around that ask for my intention so my R&D time is limited.
Later - Alex |
Challenger
| | Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 09:42 am: |
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Interesting fight there, have to throw my spoon into soup!!
I did few things into my XB; headwork (modified the shape of port window among other things, flowed them, changed custom cams, raised the CR to 11,7:1 (calculated) but still stock bore 12R, hooked 1,84" intake valve and kept exhaust stock, port matched the intake to ports cause shape was altered from stock, own design open airbox with K&N, using DL to alter maps.
I used one dynohouse, Dynojet dyno setup to certain parametrs, we're living in sea level. From that dyno figures change as you know, so comparable is only when shootouts are done in the same dyno.
Injectors were running out quite a bit... so that's about it. Bigger injectors + high pressure regulator needed for getting maps correct. Throwing dyno numbers here would only be certain numbers, not comparable to other dyno's, so quite much like waste of time. |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 01:36 am: |
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I am not worthy...I so want to understand everything you guys are talking about. Help!!! Please. A few links would suffice.
-Thanks in advance. |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 07:50 am: |
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What has gotten you bewildered?
Just put the word into an online dictionary or thesaurus, if that doesn't help, just post up the word or calculation that has caught you off guard. |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 07:53 am: |
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When you alter the heads dramatically, there AF value is going to change, to even it back out modifications must be made to the injectors, or throttle body.
Whats been mentioned in the past few posts is that the fuel injectors don't have the "flow value" that is needed, which means.. they aren't injecting enough fuel - making the AF ratio off.
That's the shorthand version of my answer. Others can critique or change it if they feel like it. |
Rasmonis
| | Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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Brine,
Truthfully, most of it has me bewildered as I know nothing about mechanical engineering other than very basic concepts.
I am eager to learn, and hope to one day be able to contribute something worth reading to threads like this. Today is obviously not that day... |
Brineusaf
| | Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 12:35 am: |
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Well, tomorrow is another day!
Just go to the library and pickup a book on "Small Engine Repair" to best started with the basics.
Or... find an old beat up lawnmower during "spring cleanup" and make it a project to bring it back to life. That way you don't run the risk of ruining something worth money, and parts & supplies will be minimal - plus.. it's a basic engine design and will be an awesome basis on which to build more knowledge and experience. |
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