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Tx05xb12s
| | Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 08:49 pm: | 
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I bought my shop manual when I realized that it wasn't necessarily a joke when a buddy of mine told me that H/D really stands for "Hundred Dollars" and that 5000 mile tuneups were around $300. I figured $54 bucks and a little grit under my nails was probably the larger ROI. Besides, tinkering and tuning is part of the experience I have come to find. Sometimes I just go out to the garage when it's running perfectly and doesn't need a thing and spend time just looking at and checking her over. I'm betting I'm not alone on that one.
By the way, anyone try to fab a decent looking tail out of the old pasta strainer? I've still got mine on since I've been spending my $$$ on peformance enhancements and safety gear. Thus far I've had a rule on my toy purchases - they had to either contribute to safety or peformance. I'm just now getting around to cosmetics.
I was going to drop $350+shipping on a tail from Trojan-Horse, but I'm thinking with a skillsaw, dremel, and maybe a rasp I could make it look like something. I figured I could cut along the natural contours right under the taillight, move the blinker mounts back an inch or so, and then repaint once the metalwork looked good. (Thought it and the seat siderails would look good blacked out) Then I was thinking I would mount the license plate using the 2 tail section mounting screws underneath by creasing the top of the l. plate forward slightly so the smokeys won't wine about it but still clear the tire and find a small light to install on the underside to light it up. I am after something unique, but not necessarily a "home built" look. It has to look good. Anyone done this? |
Tx05xb12s
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 05:25 pm: |
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I want to point out the obvious. In order to get the highest octane possible, I always look for the gas pumps that have a separate hose for each octane rating. If you're using one of those "one hose fits all" type pumps, you're probably diluting your 93 octane with at least a 1/2 gallon of whatever was pumped through it before you. With gas prices the way they are these days, you can bet it's not going to be 93 octane. |
Josh52
| | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 04:40 am: |
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I HAVE RUN 100 LOW LEAD FOR TWO YEARS STRAIGHT ON MY XB9S NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.THE BIKE RUNS BETTER AND ALOT COOLER THE FAN BARELY COMES ON .WHEN I CANT GET TO THE AIRPORT TO GET GAS I RUN HAVE TO RUN REGULAR IN IT FOR A MINUTE AND THEN THE FAN STARTS COMING ON MORE.BUT NO PROBLEMS WITH THE THE LOW LEAD AND IT SMELLS GOOD TOO |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 01:29 pm: |
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Leaded gas will destroy CATALYTIC CONVERVTERS by contaminating the catalyst (palladium?) which reduces the amount of NOx the vehicle generates. Since no Buell carries a catalytic converter (unlike Honda and BMW), there is no concern on the use of leaded gas.
O2 sensors are made to withstand leaded fuels. There may be exceptions, but as always, refer to manufacturer's data. The reason for the confusion with O2 sensors is they arrived shortly AFTER leaded gas was removed from the market place due to the Federal (EPA) Catalytic Converter requirement. So no consumer had the opportunity to run an O2 sensor with leaded gas because there was no leaded gas around, hence the myth... |
Perry
| | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 03:29 pm: |
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Okay, get this - I pulled out MY copy of the 2005 service manual (for a Lightning, not a Firebolt) and the language is slightly different.
Where pwnzor's says "Use a good quality leaded or unleaded gasoline" mine says "Use a good quality unleaded gasoline".
So what gives? It's the same engine, so I am guessing it's just an issue with the manual.
Now I'm back to wondering whether I can use the leaded fuel or not... |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
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Hey, if you don't mind changing out o2 sensors there is no reason you shouldn't use leaded gas, or octane boosters.
I have seen o2 sensors fail at the track due to leaded race fuels. The one on our race bike did before we went to the
true race only ECM (which does not use an o2 sensor)
The o2 sensor gets plated with the lead during the time before the sensor gets up to temperature. it may not fail the first,
or even the second time that you use leaded fuel, but it will fail when enough lead accumulates on the sensor.
I know that some people will not believe it until it happens to them. Just be sure to have the proper socket, and a sensor
on hand if you do try it. The bike will run like crap until you replace the sensor, but it should get you home. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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Brian My bud's 06 Fat bob has been running nothing but leaded race gas for over 6000 miles now. His race car 3 seasons. I asked them about them and he said nothing special about them just regular O2's. I know on the bike the pipes are hand made by him and the bung was relocated in a spot where they were in better direct flow of the exhaust. The factory pipes he said was actually a bad spot and he could see where the problem could occur. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 09:02 pm: |
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Like I said, most cars run dynamic o2 sensors that are heated electrically (3 or 4 wire).
I don't know what the Harleys run, but they do run entirely different fuel injection systems than the Buells do.
I can tell you for certain that leaded fuel will do-in the o2 sensor on the XB. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 09:57 pm: |
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We run VP C14 leaded race gas in our race bikes on the dyno and yes it does shorten the life of the 02 sensor, We keep a spare and on try and use 100 octane un- leaded when we can.
My ULY pinged from the first run after break-in and did until I re-mapped the timing tables using Direct Link. I am still working on a generic timing map for the stock compression XB9s and XB12s. In general here is what I did without any noticeable loss in power.
I use the race tables so here is what mine looks like. I round down any .5 values on the front cylinder table making a 35.5 a straight 35. Next I reduced all values greater than 0 by 2. These were now copied and pasted into the rear cylinder map and reduced by another 3.
Save the map to a new file name with the word timing. I am sure the Buell Engineers had a reason to have some of the cells in the rear advanced forward of the front. But my discussions with other tuners and my experience in tuning V twins tells me the rear should be between 1 to 5 deg behind the front. It is working OK and when all the Direct link Maps are finished I will forward these to AL at American Sport Bike. ... I also understand that VP now has a 103 unleaded. ... Hope this helps. ... Terry |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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I'll reiterate what the manual clearly states: Use a good quality leaded or unleaded gasoline, 91 pump octane or higher. DO NOT USE RACE GAS OR OCTANE BOOSTERS. USE OF THESE FUELS WILL DAMAGE THE FUEL SYSTEM.
My interpretation of this is: Use 91-94 octane gas. Leaded or unleaded. Everyone who has said the o2 sensors have gone bad has also said they are using race fuel.
Simple tech. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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VP makes several un-leaded race gases. It's the build up of lead on the 02 sensor that makes them go bad. Narrow band (single wire) sensors only see one value and always drive the A/F to 14.7 which is the value used by the Buell Engineers in "Closed Loop." Buell uses an "Alpha-N" system and the dynamic sensors in the above listed post are wide band and are used on "Mass Airflow" or "Speed Density" types of F/I System. They do last longer because that have less heat cycles as they are heated to maintain their temperature. But again as far as I know there are no (Lead Proof) sensors, it shortens the life of them all. ... Terry |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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Thanks for the back-up Terry 
Just for my own curiosity, do (stock)H-Ds use a narrow band or dynamic o2 sensor?
Bads1: I was not trying to be argumentative with my earlier posts, I was just trying to
pass on some information that I and others had learned the hard way. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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I wasn't trying to say one way or the other that lead would or would not ruin 02 sensors. I have no real insight to this because I don't use leaded gas, and don't intend to. I'm just pointing out what the manual says. Are the o2 sensors part of the fuel system?
Wasn't trying to step on any toes, I don't race. It seems apparent that the o2 sensors are failing when "race" gas is used. I wonder if there is any anecdotal evidence available with regard to lower octane leaded fuel? Such as fuel in the 91-94 octane range. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:31 pm: |
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Brian yes they do, all bikes except the Buell Blast now have FI. The H-D system is made by Delphi and has a closed loop area from idle thru approx. 60% TP and a narrow band sensor. Unlike the Buell, it does not have a learn mode or any thing such as AFV. We were just starting to learn the systems and start a few maps using a PC when CARB shut us down.
Matt not an issue, and it's not the the race gas it's self that causes the restriction, it's the lead in most race gases. There are a few 100 octane unleaded pump gas available at race tracks, mostly for cars that use Cats in the exhaust system. I am sure that the manual is correct and that you can get away with some 91-94 leaded for a while, but I am not to sure where one would find any. I understand that all gas from Canada including off track race gas must be unleaded. The AMA is very strict in it's rules about the amount of lead that can be in the gas. We used to mix 3 parts of VP MRX01 with VP C12 for AMA road race events. Now we can use straight VP C14. At 14.5:1 CR on my Blast I ran 115 octane at Bonneville. There is a great tech bulletin at the VP web site that explains all of their products. ... Hope this helps. ... Terry |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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There are some very good reasons I moved back to MO after living in CA from 88-03.
The restrictions they were placing on my toys was a big one.
I got stopped on Palomar Mtn several years ago so they could check for the "Not for hwy use" stamp on my exhaust (Yoshimura)
I lucked out, mine didn't have it, 2 buddies weren't as lucky.
I even had a car fail smog inside of 3 seconds for "non-stock appearance". It had chrome valve covers they popped the
hood, closed it back down and informed me I failed.
Meanwhile classic cars are being crushed by well meaning people who give them to outfits that use their destruction for the
benefit of large industry as "pollution credits" Sickening.
Education for my kids and the ability to OWN my home were other more serious reasons.
So the H-Ds also use a narrow band sensor, must be a cost issue during production.
The dynamic, or broad-band sensors seem to be much more resilient. Oh well. |
Pwnzor
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:09 am: |
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It's all a matter of semantics anyway since leaded gas is illegal in all 50 states for on-road use. I merely wanted to point out that the manual says it's ok, and in almost the same breath it says for best results use an unleaded gas.
So if you're riding through Mexico or some other sh1thole you can throw in some leaded if you had to, and not worry much about it. That's basically my point. |
Bigbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:49 pm: |
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Hey guys, I just noticed that the last fill up I bought Chevron 91 octane at the same gas station and the bike really pinged bad. And this station has individual hoses for the different octane gases that they sell. But I also found out that they just got there winter blend gas in now. And I believe that the gas is a little different than the summer blend here in California. So what I did I found a VP dealer here that sells 100 unleaded octane right out of the pump. And all I can say is Wow! What a difference, the bike runs great. The fan seams to come on less, the bike accelerates way faster and idles smoother. I think I'll try to mix the 91 with the 100 and see what happens with that mix. It cost around $4.50 a gal, but I don't drive it everyday just on the weekends. If it runs that much better, its worth the cost to me. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:18 pm: |
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I run 93 octane unless I'm desperate for fuel, but I run higher compression than stock.
If your stock bike is pinging badly with 91 octane you may need to retard the static timing a bit.
If you run less than 12.5:1 compression 100 octane fuel is not giving you a good return for the money.
Octane is a rating of resistance to (early) detonation and therefore a higher octane fuel does not carry as much energy
as a lower octane fuel. Thats why the race motors use such large injectors or jets, it takes more fuel to get the power.
Alcohol for instance is very knock resistant (one of the additives used in gasoline) but it takes about twice as much of
it to produce the same amount of energy as gasoline. Alcohol also carries o2 with it so it is also used to change emissions, but
with the oxygenated fuel your fuel economy goes down (sound familiar Californans?)
I didn't go into a lot of the technical reasons for the way gasoline is rated, or the fuel companies up-selling with the more
is always better idea, but the bottom line is: Use the lowest octane fuel that your bike will run without pinging excessively.
Too much it not enough. (return on your dollar that is ) |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 09:00 pm: |
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On the timing issue, there a a couple of us here on the board who do not understand the timing values in the maps. Again I am sure that several engines were run on an engine dyno or even a bike dyno to develop these values at Buell. But there are cells in the map where they (Buell) has the rear cylinder advanced over the front. Al and I have discussed this and when the DL muffler maps are finished we will be working on some timing tables based on engine size and compression ratio. I no longer have any pinging on my ULY. The last little bit was at 3K in closed loop with a slow roll-on but still in closed loop. ... Terry |
Hogs
| | Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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Terry,
how are you making out with the pressure regulator for the Xb`S ? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 08:20 am: |
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Terry,
Interesting stuff. I wonder if there are effects from the single/shared intake that come into play at certain engine speeds and throttle openings. |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 08:54 pm: |
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One of the experts I have used over the last few years is Chris Zootis owner or Zootis Performance in Healdsburg CA. Chris and I went to high school together in the 60's and he was a gear head back then. We lost track until a few years ago when I learned that H-D Buell of Vallejo used him to build our first AFM Road Race bike. He has over a dozen national sprint car championships to his credit and is one of the people Henry Duga from Buell keeps in touch with. He has slowed down a little but still is building a few 500 to 700 hp V8's each year. He is of the opinion that these V twins are not too much different from a two cylinder Chev. To take advantage of the torque our old S1 88 inch bike went to a full advance of 34 deg at 2500 RPM with the rear cylinder trailing by 3 deg. On the fifty or so 130+ Hp V Twin engines I have had the privilege to tune I also believe that the rear cyl likes to be somewhere between 1 to 4 deg behind the front. But again I am sure that in a test cell the Buell Engineers found a reason to have the timing tables the way they are. So far I have found no loss in power with the minor reductions I have made on my "ULY" and think I may have seen the last of my pinging, (Knock on Wood). ...
Chris I am having a few minor issues with closed loop down low. The 450 kPa regulator raises the operating pressure from 50 psi to 65 psi. In some cells where I was at 80 bits of fuel I now find that 35 bits is still too rich, but on top where the problem was is all OK now. ... Terry
(Message edited by buelldyno_guy on October 28, 2006) |
Hogs
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 09:07 pm: |
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Guess no news yet Buelldtno_guy on any pressure regulators for the Xb`s ? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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Heh heh isn't that always the way Terry?
Trading one problem for another.
I'm sure it won't take you long to sort it out. You da man! |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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Hogs/Chris, Sorry this was the to answer your question.
Yes there is a new higher 450kPa regulator available from Buell's Henry Duga. It works well, but when used with a DL ECM using closed loop I am having a few minor issues down low. The 450 kPa regulator raises the operating pressure from 50 psi to 65 psi. In some cells where I was at 80 bits of fuel I now find that 35 bits is still too rich. That skews the AFV to lean it out, but on top in open loop where the problem was is all OK now. ... Terry |
Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Thanks Buelldyno_guy ( Terry )
Its just that I am getting ready to go with your 1500 kit/cams roller rockers/lifters etc. etc and I am still in doubts with the fuel del. system for all this... No since in doing all this work IF I can not get this damn fuel injection system to mate up with all the requirements needed etc etc. Keep me posted please...
I assume we are still taking stock injectors here as well?
Chris |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 04:45 pm: |
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Yes we are but the next engine will have both larger injectors and be running at 45kPa /65 psi |
Hogs
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 04:58 pm: |
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Are we taking the 1450 kit? or 1500 Guess that really doesn``t matter as long as its one or the other....
When do you think you will have a handle on this? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 08:46 pm: |
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I will be on the Dyno tomorrow on the 90 inch (1500) engine. It will be using the 450 kPa regulator, but stock injectors. In it's final form it will be using a new 51mm Hillborne stack. The exact length will be determined after engine break-in. ... Tomorrow it will be a 51 TB sucking thru a 49mm stack and it's making 118 on a new motor with the rev limit at 6500. ... Terry |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 09:17 pm: |
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Wow, that's pretty damn sweet on a green engine. |
Cactus_dave
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:21 am: |
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Originally posted by Tx05xb12s
By the way, anyone try to fab a decent looking tail out of the old pasta strainer? I've still got mine on since I've been spending my $$$ on peformance enhancements and safety gear. Thus far I've had a rule on my toy purchases - they had to either contribute to safety or peformance. I'm just now getting around to cosmetics.
Check out my post here http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?t=1177&highlight=chop}} |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 05:26 am: |
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Hmmm, Wonder what other Mods you have done to that, Cams, rollers, head work lifters, etc.etc or all on a stock mill???
Wd. expect with all the other mods for that number to grow closer to the 125 to 130 mark...
Interested to see the Torque numbers... |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:38 am: |
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IF it is making 115hp at the limiter (6500rpm): 92.92 ftlbs of torque
the math...
HP = (torque x rpms)/5252 so:
115= (t x 6500)/5252 or:
603980 = (t x 6500) so:
92.92 = t
(Message edited by diablobrian on October 30, 2006) |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:59 am: |
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Diablobrain,
Thats great, I really don`t know ,but does not cams and other factors come into play that could change the torque numbers up or down ? |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Yes they do and the 49mm stack is an issue. We were expecting to see between 120 and 125 HP. This is the Rev Pref 90 incher using Brian's RP 610 cams as part of his kit, but with street compression ratio. I will post this evening on what I get sucking thru the 49 stack. Next month it will come back so I can install the larger stack and work on it's length and lean it out in the final map. Brian has paid for all this work so he can have the map as part of the kit. It uses a Micron and an American Sport Bike Open Airbox. ... Terry |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 11:48 am: |
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I look forward to seeing what this combo will put down once it is broken in Terry.
Hey Hogs, I was just trying to show that if you know any 2 of the 3 variables in the
horsepower equation you can figure out the other one.
Of course the components, compression, and tuner magic (porting, timing, mapping, and
component combinations) all have parts to play in the over-all picture, but at the end
of the day the formula remains the same.
That's engineering.
If you increase tq or red line (rpms), then by definition you have increased hp.
Once the rings seat and the engine wears down any (relatively) tight spots friction
losses will decrease, then it will show bigger numbers, and once Terry can let it
spin up to true red line and start to see where he can really start applying his magic
with throttle bore, stack length, ignition timing and fuel mapping.
It's a series very subtle changes that make huge differences at the end of the day 
That's Tuning. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:01 pm: |
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YEs Diablobrain,
Just wanted to make sure that you never based everything on that formula too many variables come into the picture thats all...! |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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Buelldyno_guy,
I can`t wait... Keep up the good work there guys...!
Only bad thing about this is... I`m going to be a WHOLE LOT poorer LoL... |
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