| Author | Message | ||
     Curtyd |
"Something else Buell has to consider on the new models is how bad they want trade-in values to drop. " I wouldn't think BUELL trade-in values could get any lower, I think they already are at rock bottom, with time and more models of bikes they might actually start to climb back up, no longer being in production. IMO. | ||
| Jiffy |
Let's say Buell comes out with a new model bike XB-RR 130Hp, water-cooled or air doesn't matter. The bike is well liked by the magazines for making Buell competitive against other bikes. I would think re-sale for all Buells would rise some, because the Buell name gets a boost of morale from the riding community. You have to remember some people put all of their faith in what the Mags say...unforturnately. | ||
| Jaimec |
When a manufacturer publishes dry weight, they mean sans ALL fluids, not just gasoline. Batteries WITHOUT acid, shocks and forks WITHOUT fluid, no oil in the tranny, etc. What Sportrider publishes is a little more realistic, but c'mon... who rides bikes without fuel? Give me "Road Ready" weight instead! | ||
| M2nc |
I would like to see Buell come out with a water cooled bike that does not go after 600, but other bikes like the Ducati Monster, SV1000, RC51, Aprillia, Speed Triples etc. I do not want a replacement model, but an addition line. Just like the BMW R & K series bikes, that way we can just add Buellers, not replace or change them. To me the Uly has plenty of power. It is more of a touring machine than its other XB siblings. But to me, the Firebolt is underpowered. It is a sport bike that is five years behind the competition in power delivery. If Firebolts were hitting 120rwhp, they would be hot sellers. The chassis is top of the line, it should have an engine to match. As far as for the Lightning, I would offer it with both present day Air Cooler and previously mentioned Water Cooled. A direct competitor for both Ducati S4R and S1000. (Message edited by M2nc on September 10, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Manufacturer reported dry weights, except for Ducati's, typically exclude the entire battery, not just the acid. This is from the old practice of referring to the shipping weight as "dry", which was sans battery. | ||
| Mojave_mike |
Quote... But to me, the Firebolt is underpowered. It is a sport bike that is five years behind the competition in power delivery. If Firebolts were hitting 120rwhp, they would be hot sellers. The chassis is top of the line, it should have an engine to match... I test rode a BMW R1200S, which has a 1200cc air cooled twin..that bike was exhilarating to ride with 122hp, and it red lined over 8000 rpm. If I had ridden the R1200S and the XB12R on the same day, I would have purchased the BMW. Mike | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
At some point in the not too distant future, air cooled motorcycle engines WILL go away. It'll have nothing to do with more power production or EPA noise regulations, but will have everything to do with EPA tailpipe emissions. | ||
| M1combat |
I disagree... The hotter the combustion chamber the more efficient it is... (among other things of course). (Message edited by M1Combat on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Midknyte |
You know, Buell's marketing logic may be similar to what Dodge did a few years ago. Remember when the "radical" new Ram full-size trucks were introduced? ... Dodge built the "radical" design and doubled their market share. They correctly figured it was better to have a vehicle that people either loved or hated than one that they kind of liked or kind of disliked, because the 25% that loved it went out and bought one. I probably fell into this category. It took 15 years for someone to make a bike able to pry non-existent dollars from my budget and make me upgrade my ride. The Firebolt was love at first sight for me. (Message edited by midknyte on September 11, 2006) | ||
| Swampdog225 |
What makes a heck of a lot of sense is the idea that a non-HDMC owned company, Roehr, is building a sport bike, with an engine that most see as the logical answer for Buell. Now, this thing may not ever make it to market, but you best believe that it doesn't leave a good taste in HDMCs mouth. They will do what is fiscally prudent for them, which is OEM the VRod engine. They may not like it, but they'll do it. Don't get me wrong, it's not the most aesthetically pleasing engine, but if its inside an XBRR frame with a full fairing who cares. Liquid cooled is what will give Buell, what HDMC needs... Street credibility. Street credibility unfortunately, is what drives the younger market segment to purchase. I don't know about you guys, but I would love to see the variants of the Buell Firebolt. An air-cooled version that we have all come to know and love. And a modified version of the Vrod engine that appeals to the performance minded Buellers. That my friends may never happen. But it is the only way that we all will agree. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm a performance minded Bueller and I wouldn't buy a V-Rod powered XB for LESS money than my 12R costs... It's TOO HEAVY. It's TOO TALL. It's NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH (given it's weight). No thanks on the V-Rod engine. Give me a small, high revving (7500-8200 RPM) V-Twin with about 125-140HP. I would buy whether it's water or air cooled, but I would prefer it to be air cooled. I wouldn't even mind a more elaborate oil cooling system. Something with two larger oil coolers and oil passages through the jugs and all that jazz... I don't think we'll see water cooling in '08, but I do think we'll see a newish engine. I've said that before though  . | ||
| Hogs |
If the Xb was Liquid cool like the Vrod when I bought My buells... Well I wd. have NOT... Air/oil Cool is the only BEAST for me and the NAture of the XB motor, water is for clean up,not that I clean it much LoL....... just my .02 cents... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Water cooling a 45 degree V-Twin is not the answer. If Buell goes water cooled, we will lose that which makes Buells most unique. | ||
| Blake |
Ayden, "At some point in the not too distant future, air cooled motorcycle engines WILL go away. It'll have nothing to do with more power production or EPA noise regulations, but will have everything to do with EPA tailpipe emissions." Care to explain how you arrive at that conclusion? I think that it is a myth. I'll try to explain my logic on that conclusion. You've heard of catalytic converters right? They convert undesirable products of inefficient combustion to less undesirable compounds. Unburned hydrocarbons (fuel) are burned creating more CO2 and water; excessive amounts of carbon-monoxide (CO) are reacted via catalysts and air to produce CO2; nitrogen oxides are broken down into constituent nitrogen and oxygen compounds. My chemistry may not be 100% pure, but you get the idea. Except for Buell motorcycles, virtually all the 80 rwhp+ sport bikes require catalytic converters in order to meet current anti-pollution regulations as far as I know. None of the Buells yet need cats in order to meet the stricter EPA anti-pollution requirements. Why do you suppose that is? It is because our supposedly old antiquated air-cooled Buell engines are significantly more efficient than their water-cooled counterparts. High revving short stroke engines are not high efficiency engines. Low revving long stroke engines are inherently higher efficiency. Which is why the Buell engines don't yet require the band-aid of a catalytic converter to meet the new stricter EPA anti-pollution requirements. Should the requirements continue to become stricter, sure some day the Buells will need to use catalytic converters just like the high revving engines of the competition do. There is no shame in that. I just use the fact that they currently don't to prove the truth and debunk once and for all the myth that air-cooled engines are somehow doomed to extinction because of evolving, ever-stricter anti-pollution laws. As far as I know, there are no reasons whatsoever that air-cooled engines cannot continue to meet and exceed anti-pollution requirements, none that I know of that are valid anyway. If you or anyone knows differently, I'd be very interested in learning about that information. | ||
| Aeroe |
I wouldn't even mind a more elaborate oil cooling system. Something with two larger oil coolers and oil passages through the jugs and all that jazz... My question is what's the difference between the two? Is water cooling more efficient? I know Porsche oil cooled the 911 for many many years. Any speculation about the possibility of getting an oil cooled Buell anyone? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
We do don't we have an oil cooled? The 911s were both air cooled and oil cooled like my 75 VW Beetle. On our engines are cooled on the outside by airflow and cooled on the inside by the dry sump system. Having the oil contained in a reservoir separate from the crank case provides additional cooling. The oil cooler acts as our radiator. We might gain a few extra oil paths through the cylinder walls and the head, but at what cost and what benefit? I could see them increasing the oil cooler and reservoir sizes. They could move the oil faster with a larger pump. | ||
| Brucelee |
I think Blake's explanation sounds logical. It may also explain why our fuel mileage is so good. My cousin has a VTR and even with the same displacement, his MPG is really pretty poor compared with mine (55MPG on avg). | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
Sure, it's not how hot or cool the engine operates at but how consistant engine temperature is. NoX emmissions are what the EPA has focussed on as of late, particularly during warm-up, and idle. The better you can control engine (combustion) temperatures, the leaner you can make the fuel curve, the fewer NoX emmissions the engine creates. As Blake has pointed out, cats take care of CO, but not NoX. As the EPA tightens the reigns on tailpipe emmissions for motorcycles, some things are or have already gone away. Carbs are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Think H-D's decision to go all injected was as an value added sales tool? No, it was to better control emmissions. H-D's touring bikes sold in Cali have had one way cats on them since 2003, they're cleverly built into the front third of the mufflers. Look, I like my air cooled Buell, and I hope that H-D and Buell can resist water cooling and cats as long as they can, but at some point, and again I think it's closer than any of us care to admit, air cooled motorcycles are going to become few and far between. Over at H-D, the Revolution engine is the future of the company. At Buell, the future is just a year away I think and it's going turn all of us on our collective ears, but in a good way. The good news is that Buell is currently building the most inovative air cooled bikes around, and they aren't going to go away, just become used. I can still buy an air cooled Porsche 911 if I want, just not a 2007 model. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Liquid-cooled engines have a long and dirty warm-up period... our air-cooled engines have a very short warm-up time... and are much cleaner during... they get up to operating temp quickly and they are very clean because of the efficient fuel burning in the combustion chamber... | ||
| Teddagreek |
Water cooled engines have less of a temp swing... a more Constant Temp = longer engine life  | ||
| M1combat |
"a more Constant Temp = longer engine life" Also Lower RPM = Longer engine life Long stroke = better combustion efficiency Higher combustion chamber temperature = better combustion chamber efficiency There are a number of factors that point to air cooling being a viable solution for emissions requirements for the near future. I think we'll see air cooling stay around for quite some time. HD of course needs to get their feet wet, but I don't see them jumping on the VR engine bandwagon and letting the air cooled stuff go any time soon. Not even in ten years. Buell will go there first IMO (across the board I mean). If not in '08, then maybe five years later. It's certainly true that consistent temperature is better for engineering tollerances but a HOT engine produces less emissions than the same engine running cool. It's all a tradeoff. I like getting 56MPG at 100MPH . I don't want more power very often. Quite frankly I've never been in a situation where I "needed" more power, but I have run out of fuel  . All that said ... I want more power damnit . | ||
| Frankfast |
Like Ducati, there is nothing wrong with Buell expanding the range of the motors offered for sale on their bikes. If they wish to build an eight valve, overhead cam, watercooled bike, more power to them. If there is money to be made, they will do it. I already own a 996 and I bought my Lightning this year to satisfy other demons in me. For Buell to abandon the aircooled motor altogether would be foolish. I don't think they would do it. | ||
| Teddagreek |
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| Blake |
Ayden, Carbs are less optimal concerning emissions. Check. H-D models utilize catalytic converters, just like the liquid cooled bikes do. Check. "As Blake has pointed out, cats take care of CO, but not NoX" Oops no. I said that cats also take care of NOx (nitrogen oxides). There are indeed catalytic converters that address excessive NOx emissions and they are employed on motorcycles.
I think you are confused on the NOx issue. It is the leaner running engine that produces more NOx as it leaves more oxygen available for oxidation reaction with nitrogen whereas in a less lean running engine more of the oxygen is consumed by the combustion reaction (combining with carbon and hydrogen to create CO2, C0 and H20/water) with less or none left over to react with nitrogen. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding. More on NOx. With all else being equal, which engine will emit higher concentrations of NOx, one with a lower compression ratio or one with a higher compression ratio? Answer: The one with a lower compression ratio. Question: What do you find when you compare/contrast compression ratios of Buell engines versus say an SV650 engine or any other liquid-cooled sporting motorcycle engine? "at some point, and again I think it's closer than any of us care to admit, air cooled motorcycles are going to become few and far between." You've not answered the glaringly obvious question... Buell motorcycles are currently able to pass EPA anti-pollution regulations without the use of catalytic converters while their competition must employ catalytic converters to meet the same regulations. Given that very simple fact, how is it that one may rationalize that air-cooled engines are somehow be at a disadvantage in EPA emissions performance? Can you please explain that? Currently Buell motorcycle air-cooled engine outperform their water-cooled competition in anti-pollution performance. Please explain how that situation will be reversed merely due to stricter regulations. Currently the air-cooled engines used by Buell seem to have a distinct advantage over their liquid cooled competition wrt exhaust emissions. How/why do you expect that to change? "Over at H-D, the Revolution engine is the future of the company. At Buell, the future is just a year away I think and it's going turn all of us on our collective ears, but in a good way." Nothing Buell does will surprise me short of if they were to start copying the competition. It is curious that so many folks imagine a liquid cooled motorcycle engine as though it were some kind of magic cure all for performance and/or pollution. Ever wonder what might be possible with air-cooling if someone put some effort into to pushing the state of the art? Forced air cooling? Ducting? Computer controlled? Nah, just liquid cool it? Lemme see, liquid cooling on a motorcycle involves myriad ducting/plumping, a big ugly heat exchanger that is difficult to conceal, a pump, and most often a fan. What if someone put as much effort into eliminating the middle-man liquid heat exchanging fluid in favor of using air exclusively to cool the engine? You know, kinda like what Buell did with the XB models? Ted da Greek, I will most likely never ever own a motorcycle that has an exhaust like that. UGLY! GOOFY! Would you? Besides, it's a cruiser and that pic does a fine job of trying to hide the big ugly radiator. (Message edited by Blake on September 13, 2006) | ||
| Jlnance |
Answer: The one with a lower compression ratio. Can you explain why? I'm supprised. | ||
| Brucelee |
I like the idea of a new HIGHER TECH air cooled engine. Perhaps with direct injection and with a couple of low pressure blowers ala the new BMW engine. Perhaps with newer alloys to lighten weight. Perhaps with a newer, six speed trans with lower weight. Perhaps with 65 MPG and 100 HP at the crank. Where do I buy this bike? I am with blake here, why add another cooling medium if you don't have too? | ||
| Brucelee |
Hey, how about an air cooled diesel with MASSIVE torque and 80 MPG. Engine by Renault? | ||
| Teddagreek |
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| 1313 |
Aydenxb9, At some point in the not too distant future, air cooled motorcycle engines WILL go away. Were all gonna die! Sorry, I just love to be the antagonist at times... I'll admit, from practical experience, that it is a hell of a lot easier to work on an air cooled machine than a water cooled machine. Blake, Ted da Greek, I will most likely never ever own a motorcycle that has an exhaust like that. UGLY! GOOFY! Would you? I do own a motorcycle with a distinctive exhaust like that (well, at least when I pay off the ••••••• loan I will...). That's part of the reason I LOVE the bike, the exhaust is so disctinctive. Sure I could have put a CFR or Reinhart exhaust on my V-Rod and really annoy my neighbors, but with the distinctive (but V-mod'ed) exhaust I can be (relatively) quiet in town but still raise a LOT of ruckus when I am REALLY getting on it out in the country. Sometimes your comments can really rub people the wrong way. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't 'the hot setup' for someone else. Has Blake assimilated with a certain Anonymous that has nothing better to do than BASH any incoventional take on a motorcycle or a particular component of it? You are a smart man, and I'm sure that you can realize why the muffler (and secondary exhaust) volume is so large on a V-Rod... Sorry, the above is an example of what can happen when dubious amounts of alcohol and the substance known as beer are induced without the application of this 'no strings attached sex'...But some of the stuff above does, in fact, make sense. Enough venting, we now return you to your normally scheduled thread, 1313 | ||
| Teddagreek |
I finally got the issue and read it. The bike was spotted South West, which is known as the proving grounds for new bikes and motors in their last stages of development. I remember watching the VRod Documentary they had the bikes out there running in a shed in dessert for 24 hours straight. Another thing the guy who glanced the bike said it had pushrods and was water-cooled? Why even bother water-cooling if your not going to go multivalve. Also the 50th anniversary to the sportster is coming next year and Buells 25th.. 2008 will be interesting or not… |
