| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Porsche went water cooled over a decade ago. If those air-cooled diehards can live with it, so can we. In 158,000 miles on my 1985 K100, the only time I had a leak in the radiator was when I stupidly decided to ride off a curb that was way too high. I smashed the belly pan (and knocked me testicles somewhere up around my ears, I think) and developed a small but steady leak from around the water pump. I have 97,000 miles on my 1999 K1200LT with no water leaks. Water cooling doesn't automatically mean non-hydraulic valves, either. One doesn't necessarily exclude the other. Kawasaki's Vulcan and Voyager engines are water cooled with hydraulic valves. You can even have high-performance engines with hydraulic valves, as MOST automobile engines these days have, and Honda had in the old CB700 Nighthawk. I'm not going to sell Buell's elves short. I'm sure whatever they come up with will be nothing short of amazing. I've seen comments in this thread that the existing engine passes 2008 EPA requirements. Big Deal! I hope you all realize that 2008 is LESS than two years away, and we ALL know how quickly Buell's product cycle runs! This isn't Honda that throws out completely redesigned models year after year. | ||
| Xring |
Just because the auto industry does it, and other manufacturers do, doesn't mean it is the only, or right, way. Look at Honda. They are notorious for manufacturing "gee-whiz" technology. The best example is 4 wheel steering in the Prelude. Yeah. Everybody knows how cumbersome the Prelude was without the 4-wheel steering.  Just extra expense, weight and complications for not enough payoff. It will be interesting to see how Buell expands their target market. Aside from EPA mandates, it boils down to a business decision. Would a new machine with a higher-stress engine, which would probably include water-cooling, pay for itself? Would the riders that could afford it buy one? Or would it get a decidedly lukewarm reception from the buying public, like the V-Rod did? Buell can't afford a miscue. A higher HP engine, and its attendant problems, is not a surefire hit. It remains to be seen if the riders wanting competitive power and top speed are willing to pay for it; willing to sell their Japanese and European bikes and buy a Buell. Like it or not, the sportbike market is of limited size. Catering to a small market segment may not be a wise business decision. And, of course, before Buell expands their market they need to fix the dealer problems... Good luck, Bill | ||
| Glitch |
Catering to a small market segment may not be a wise business decision. I don't think you can get a much smaller segment than people wanting a sportster engine in a sportbike frame. | ||
| Mesafirebolt |
I Agree Glitch, thats exactly why I have a Buell. My last bike, Honda GT650 with a liquid cooled V twin, was great but it DROVE me to the aircooled Sporty engine in a high performance frame. Or i'da just bought an RC51 | ||
| Xring |
I don't think you can get a much smaller segment than people wanting a sportster engine in a sportbike frame. Good point, but what remains to be seen is, would the market be even smaller for a water-cooled Sportster engine in a sportbike frame. Bill | ||
| Whodom |
You know, Buell's marketing logic may be similar to what Dodge did a few years ago. Remember when the "radical" new Ram full-size trucks were introduced? Dodge had held ~10% of the full-size pickup market for years. They came out with 2 prototypes, one nice, but very mundane, and the other radically styled. They showed them to a group of test subjects. For the mundane truck, reaction was about 50% positive and 50% negative. For the radical truck, the reaction was ~25% positive and ~75% negative, BUT the 25% positive LOVED the truck and the 75% HATED it. Dodge built the "radical" design and doubled their market share. They correctly figured it was better to have a vehicle that people either loved or hated than one that they kind of liked or kind of disliked, because the 25% that loved it went out and bought one. I can see some definite similarities with people's reaction to Buells. | ||
| M1combat |
"I've seen comments in this thread that the existing engine passes 2008 EPA requirements. Big Deal! I hope you all realize that 2008 is LESS than two years away" Yeah... we realize that... We also realize that the 2008 models will be Buells 25th anniversary models. Also... The engine has been passing 2008 Cali standards since it's inception in 2003. | ||
| Jiffy |
Ok look at it this way. Buell could make a dump truck load of money if it came out with a bike that could compete or beat the current 600cc market. I read many many forums daily. Everyone loves the Buell but wants a better engine...Everyone except a few die hard fans. I personally think it's fine now. But would like to see Buell grab more market share. Look at Triumph with the Daytona. For a few years they made the Daytona an I-4 and it was nice but couldn't quite keep up in the magazine test rides and track tests. Sales of these bikes were OK, but not great. The fan base was some die hard fans that liked the uniqueness. Then they come out with a hard core triple Daytona that stomps the competition. It is still very much a Triumph with and they kept most of the die hard fans. But, they also gained a massive or huge following from the rest of the sportbike crowd by showing that they can make a bike that is capable of keeping up with or even beating the Japanese Sport bikes. They are selling the Daytona 675 like hotcakes. Buell could do something similar. It would be nice to see all the naysayers go "Hey I like Buell, Buells are cool." I don't care how Buell does it. Water-cooled, Air-cooled, Nitrogen-cooled, whatever they use it doesn't matter, but it seems water-cooled is the most obvious choice for a high HP motor. I would be happy with a XB-RR street version, which is my prediction of what may be the next unveiling in 08. | ||
| Xring |
Everyone loves the Buell but wants a better engine...Everyone except a few die hard fans Ok, this is where I need convincing. I admit the vocal majority want more power. What about the many Buell buyers who are not members of this forum, or any forum. The ones who ride back and forth to work, occasional weekend trips, once in a while run it through the gears hard, and otherwise, don't obsess about the bike at all? I would bet there are more of those riders than the hardcore, gotta-have-more crowd. Here is an example, may or may not be a good analogy. I have a friend that owns a gym. He is a competitive powerlifter. When we were younger, we made fun of the chrome-and-neon "softcore" gyms. We wanted a bare bones, blood,sweat & tears place. Guess what? Those places go broke catering to the "hardcore" audience. You have to sell enough of your product to make money, even if it isn't the product you really want to be selling. When you are successful enough, as a business, you can afford to lose money on fun projects, or to sell products that will hook customers for later sales (ala the little Sportster). What I'm trying to say is, look at the big picture. I don't know where to look for the statistics on a nationwide (or worldwide) basis, but I can tell you for sure, sportbikes are a very small minority in this neck of the woods. Bill | ||
| Skully |
Everyone loves the Buell but wants a better engine... How do they define better? Can you be more specific? | ||
| Greenlantern |
I'm just wondering what the the cost of admission will be to "Waterworld"? As I understand it, margins on the XB's are not that much to begin with.Does a water cooled bike bring a hefty price tag increase (+3,000- 4,000 neighborhood)or does Buell keep prices in line by cheap sourcing oem parts,(read quality)? I doubt the latter would be the case but that brings up the question, Would future Mr. Joe Sportbike buy a $13,000-14,000 motorcycle which even with improvements will on white only show specs in line with a japanese 600/750 hypersport which can be had for quite a bit less? (BTW, I might but I am already one of the converted and have a 2007 on the way so my opinion is null and void. ) | ||
| Bads1 |
M1 Buell almost back with the 2004 model met 2008 EPA regs. but not quite. 2005... they did. And now it'll be time to meet a new standard. The 2003 though and the 04's didn't yet. | ||
| Macbuell |
I don't want the XB's to sell like hotcakes, as Jiffy put it. I like the uniqueness of the bike. I like that when I went up do the Dragon a few weeks ago I saw about four XB's all weekend as opposed to dozens of I-4's. That being said, I do want a lighter, more powerful engine. I'm hoping that some of the XBRR technology will trickle down to a new air-cooled v-twin that would make my dreams a reality. | ||
| Jiffy |
Let me define "better". Better for most sportbike riders meaning being able to compete with the Japanese bikes. The sportbike crowd wants MORE POWER "Tim Allen" Triumph made the 675 "better" to the sportbike crowd by making it win shootouts and get much praise from the community. They also kept the price really competitive, $9500 I believe. Cost of admission should be comparable to the cost of other manufacturers. I feel if Triumph can do it, being such a small company, Buell can do it too. Why not make a bike that competes with the Japanese and keep a bike that is air-cooled for those that don't need balls to the wall. Fun for all. | ||
| Eboos |
05 Aprilia RSVR HP 122.8@10,250 Torque 71.6@8000 Dry weight 444lbs 05 Ducati 999 HP 131.6@10,000 Torque 74.3@8000 Dry weight 453 05 Honda RC51 HP 120.9@9000 Torque 72.2@8000 Dry weight 454 04 Suzuki GSX R750 HP 127.3@12,750 Torque 52.0@10,750 Dry weight 407 06 Suzuki GSX R600 HP 109.3@13,500 Tourque 44.1@11,750 Dry weight 411 Stats courtesy of Sport Rider Magazine. "Would future Mr. Joe Sportbike buy a $13,000-14,000 motorcycle which even with improvements will on white only show specs in line with a japanese 600/750 hypersport which can be had for quite a bit less?" I would. I currently am very interested in a RC51, but I would rather have one offered by Buell. (Message edited by eboos on September 08, 2006) (Message edited by eboos on September 08, 2006) | ||
| 45_degrees |
I like how my Buell is making torque numbers like those first 3 listed above beginning below 3000 rpm! The 600 sportbikes just aren't torquey enough to feel fun on the street. 44.1 ft. lbs. @ 11,750... that's pathetic. | ||
| Eboos |
06 Buell XB9R HP 75.6@6000 Torque 58.8@6000 Dry weight 437 06 Buell XB12Ss HP 90.0@6750 Torque 72.7@5750 Dry weight 447 The XB9 and the GSXR750 are pretty even in price and torque (using 04 numbers, I don't have the 750's 06 numbers), but the GSXR has a weight advantage, and crap loads more HP. I know that numbers aren't everything, but for a buyer, it does screen out possible candidates before narrowing a choice. | ||
| M1combat |
Aren't those all wet weights? The 750 looks like it would be a great bike on paper... 52lbs of torque though? I still think that an 88" Buell will be a GREAT deal more fun. Less reliable for sure but I like to tinker with bikes... I think the Buell wil be more reliable stock though but yeah... ~130HP is my sweet spot... | ||
| Blake |
If peak HP is a major deciding factor, Buell ain't the bike for you. Plenty of others out there that might tickle your fancy though. Personally I cannot stand having to rev a bike to 6,000+ rpm just to get it into the meat of the power band. Thus I cannot stand a 600cc repliracer for a street bike. They are great on the track though, but even there, the high pitched whine grates on my nerves. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Like I mentioned before... we will be getting a version of the RR engine I'm pretty sure... and it will certainly be powerful enough to be more than competitive... even if it's "detuned" for the street. Yeah the GSXRs are nice... but if a buyer was considering useable power on the street... and looked at the rpm that the power is developed... Buell is the way to go. It's nice to be into the fat power before you even get through the intersection... and it's easier to be quick on the backstreets without much effort with lots of torque down low. That's why they are the ultimate streetfighters. I bought my first Buell (9S, now I have a 12Ss) before even riding it... I knew it's what I wanted by looking at spec sheets and reading the articles... even the negative reviews made me like it more... I must say if you really look at the numbers, Buells aren't weak in the power department... it's just that the others have so much "hyperactive power" with their sewing machine engines. Being able to use their full power on a regular basis on the street is rare compared to using Buell power all the time on the street. It's the main reason people are smiling all the time while riding a Buell. Besides... torque determines how "big" the horses are (or feel)... 109 HP at 13.5 grand with ~40 ft. lbs.... those are little horsies. I had a chance to ride a friend's GSXR 600 (before I had a Buell) and it was quick, but it didn't have that locomotive-feeling shove that the Buell provides... so the Buell feels much quicker (and I'm sure it is up to all legal speeds and up to at least 100, where it matters) Where does Sport Rider get their dry weight numbers? They're all high... aren't the Gixxers in the 360-370 lb. range? And the 9 is 390, the 12Ss is 400. They look like they should be wet weight numbers... | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah... I think those are wet w/o fuel numbers? Keep in mind we use 3.7Gallons and they use 4.5 or 5.5 or something as well. I know... That's nit-picking but weight is a pretty big issue to me. Useable power is a good point... I had a Force pipe on my 12 for a while. The header diameter was designed for a 9 and the power was horrible below 2800RPM. It completely killed the fun of the bike around town. It wasn't bad when I'd get out on a canyon road, but it was just plain pissing me off in town. I run a Drummer now and the initial snap of torque from 2500 RPM will startle you the first few times you jack the throttle in the lower RPMs. | ||
| Mattwhite |
I just read in Sport Rider their dry weights are ready to ride except fuel. Same idea as giving HP off the dyno instead of the manufacturer spec. HD would probably cover most of the development cost of a new engine if the Sportster goes the same route, so cost of entry wouldn't have to be so bad for Buell. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Hmmm that's weird... ready to ride without fuel... Still though... 47 lbs. of oil in the XBs... I didn't know they could hold that much! The others should have their coolant weight in that number too. | ||
| Xring |
How is the extra heat on the XBRR managed? I'd be surprised to see that engine in a street bike, for that reason. The current 12's sometimes have heat control problems, any more power would just make it worse. It can be tolerated (in rider comfort, as well as decreased engine life) in a race bike, but not a street bike. I also thought it had been confirmed that the 390-pound figure for the XB9 was a little low. By about 35 pounds? The figures I remember were 425 dry, 450 wet. Bill | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Dry weight generally also does not include the battery. | ||
| Bads1 |
You can lose close to 70 lbs. if you just let the air out of tires. | ||
| Blake |
Right 34 lb in front and 36 in back. LOL! | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
I have yet to see a perfect all around best bike for everyone. I still subscribe to the multi-bike theory, if you can afford it. Otherwise, you have to make peace with the best compromise you can accept. That is quoted from the first page of this threads archives ... and I couldn't agree with it more. I love the Buell for what it is, to me it's the black sheep of motorcycles .. the bike they never saw coming, so on and so forth... I could go on but back to my initial point - I agree with the statement above .. I have my M2, the wife has her Blast(which hasn't seen much riding time), and I also have a 97 Honda Shadow ACE VT1100, with fake fins on the cylinders to make it look air cooled, yet with a big ol' radiator and fan on it. I have had that bike since '99, and right now it is in the process of being converted into a full touring bike, hardbags, fairing, trunk, etc... Honda's make very reliable, comfortable bikes for the long haul .. not that my Buell hasn't served me well while the Honda is down, just that certain bikes are better for certain things. Buell for fun, and an adrenaline rush. Honda for 2 up riding, and touring. Still looking for my 3rd, that cafe project I can't get out of my head ... the 'bar hopper' | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Something else Buell has to consider on the new models is how bad they want trade-in values to drop. Anyone here that has a Buell knows their values take a drastic dive after you drive it off the lot. How will someone who buys a bike a year or two before be able to trade in on a new motor when they are upside down on their current bikes?? The 96 really hurt the 2005 and 2006 twincam 88.....and most of those guys arent too happy about it. Buell has a much smaller following, and if the same thing were to happen I dont know if they would make it out of the rut..... | ||
| Teddagreek |
It is what it is..New models years and redesigns always hurt values.. If the sportster and Buell get a optional watercooled power plant for 2008 who cares your the consumer don't buy it. If buell sells more bikes prices will come down then again they are own by harley..  Unfortunately the motor cycle industry isn't like the auto industry that you know when New models are going to come out years before.. |
