| Author | Message | ||
     Vonsliek |
can u really chnge primary gear from triple chain to belt & can u alter gearing such that a higher top speed is attainable? i am looking at a local track w/ one long straight of say 1/2 mile .. (its a drag strip when no cars or bikes). i get passed by all 600's & even monster 8oo's (modified, as we are at flat chat & they walk away from me quickly & its not a technique thing on a striaght run). due to HUGE financial contraints - i am looking at maybe having to give up on track for a while, as i can't afford a used 600 & the xb12r is too slow, but i can't afford much in way of engine mods - i have factory race kit & open airbox. so, if i make my streetbike (see above) my track/racebike & hence dispense w/ all road crap - will weight savings make any difference & if i go chain conversion to rear w/ gearing options, will i be able to stay w/ 600's on straights? the xb12r i have has more than enough poke to keep on tail of slower 1000's & all 600's, so if i can stay w/ them on main straight, i can maybe take them on one of the turns. basically, i can afford - i feel - to sacrifice a little acceleration for a little top end. is there a best option for increasing rev limit (i have 6 months on warranty, then its down to me)? lastly - is there a reasonably cheap option for gearing?? can altered ratios be swapped into gearbox easily? i use on track all 5 gears (for start to straight), but mostly its no more than 2nd & 3rd for 80% of 2-mile long track. any thoughts, pointers, cost cutters greatly appreciated - i am not looking to be competitive right now . just get thru novice & promo to am, next season. paul. | ||
| Trojan |
The first thing that we learned when racing the XB12 is that it is very difficult to match the 600 Supersport bikes (and even some of the tuned SV650/700s) for top speed, and trying to do so just eats loads of money and lowers reliability (been there and done that!). What we have done this year is to concentrate on the handling/braking of the bike whilst gearing it for the best possible drive out of corners. This ensures the highest corner speed possible and means that the bike will get onto the straights faster than the 600's etc and therefore make it harder for them to get past. Weight saving is another area where huge gains can be made with the XB. Ditching most of the stock electrics and bodywork will save a considerable amount of weight, and fitting a lightweight rear subframe also saves a lot of weight for the price. If you are running the stock final belt drive then the bike is probably over geared anyway for most tracks and would struggle to pull top gear flat out unless you have a very long straight or steep hill. Changing internal gear ratios isn't really an option for particular tracks, as you would need to completely strip the motor just to do this. Andrews do produce a close ratio gear set for the XB though. Changing to a chain final drive should be your first priority for the track, as this will give you gearing options that you can change in minutes. The belt primary that we use may be available for sale soon, although it certainly will not be a cheap option and requires some modifications to the engine as well. The main advantage of the Belt drive primary that we use is that it saves nearly 6kg over the stock setup. Other advantages are that the gear shifting is smoother and we can run a top quality gearbox oil that is now seperated from the primary. Given the problems that the XBRR programme seems to have suffered with primary chains, I am a little surprised that they have not explored this option further themselves. In conclusion, don't concentrate on getting a higher top speed, as you will lose out coming out of the turns. Concentrate instead on getting onto the straight faster in the first place so that the other bikes just don't have the time or space to get past before the next turn  Barry Sheene always geared his bikes for maximum acceleration between corners and let the top speed sort itself out. If it was good enough for him then it works for me  | ||
| Kds1 |
Paul, Trojan is right...don't worry too much about top speed, that's where you can't be competitive, a chain conversion and good suspension will make more difference and I will have to add that the race muffler is not the best thing for a buell on the track, you waste more time trying to get the bike to rev to peak than if you made 10 more ftlbs of tq early then the tq would propel you out of the corner faster and be capable of running to redline faster....we are very competitive on a stock xb9 against the sv650 superbikes, run top 5s almost everyrace, and finish on the podium against the 1000s in superstock...suspension was worth 4 secs per lap and tires was another 6 secs, there's alot of time for you to be ahead of the others and make them ride faster to keep up.... www.kdfab.com Kevin | ||
| Vonsliek |
really kdfab?? susp. = that much time?? what can i do then .. traxxion?? rework & say elka/penske/etal shock on rear for my weight? set sag? & tires .. are we talking warmed dragons?? what of lightening flywheel?? can u recommend any specific items & is the home made chain conversion - as per KV - solid enough? i broke my belt today on way to work after just 19000 kms - thats abt 21000kms too soon! it was good looking from outside, but underside was dry as a nun's ..... all cracked up. now dealership is baulking on warrantying it .. i have 8 months on warranty left .. assholes. but i digress .. shd i bother w/ expense of bodywork - & is kevlar considerably lighter than f/glass? i knwo i corner very well, so its the weight - i agree tho - was thinking abt it most of day - that getting on gas faster wld be better. i met barry sheene when i was 11 .. got his autograph after he won at brands .. imagine trying to get vale's today??! fack! also - & most importantly - i have seriously been thinking abt returning bike to pre-racekit form, as i can smash my buddy on his xb12s on streets, but it take a while to catch & pass him .. that powerband. is that what u mean? stock intake/exhaust/ecm?? as far as i can recall, stock my bike dod 225kmh where after i put racekit on & reset tps, i struggled to get 220kmh .. not much but at top end it seemed easier to go fast .. also, noise & lugging at low speeds bothers me. paul. | ||
| Vonsliek |
so .. also .. what kinda weight are we talking for stock electrics & bodywork savings?? | ||
| Brineusaf |
Kevin/Matt - in your opinion is the Pro Series Suspension worth it? (Message edited by brineusaf on September 06, 2006) | ||
| Ronlv |
homemade chain conversion is not solid enough trojan has said the problems they had with modified stock tensioner (cracking & slipping) if i remember correctly my homemade version slipped but not cracked but i didnt race i have since switched to freespirits and love it see my profile for pic later, ron | ||
| Saintly |
"homemade chain conversion is not solid enough" Once again Ron, I see you knocking the setup that I and now SIX others run. I've never passed judgement on any of the components that you sell/endorse, yet you see fit to repeatedly get digs in where you can. I've now been running that "homemade" setup for over a year and with 10,000 miles! Perhaps your homemade version failed for you, but I would assume that it was because of the way you did it. Mine is bulletproof! I've been selling one of my conversion kits each month now and I've sold six of them. I've heard no complaints. I use high quality brand name o-ring chain and sprockets by Harley-Davidson and Vortex Racing. As I've pointed out before, only our tensioners differ(Oh, and our prices yours is marked up $600 more). The way you continue to blindly slam other peoples components without testing them speaks greatly of your character(A-hole)! Perhaps your just trying to badmouth all other setups so that you can continue selling what you sell. By the way I've had my hands on that nylon sprocketed pricey tensioner that you sell, and I'm sticking with my setup. Thanks again for the slam though, buddy! | ||
| Glitch |
Now, now you two, play nice. No need for name calling. We can get along just fine with a good debate in another thread. Debate = good Arguing & name calling = not good Let's be good, shall we?  | ||
| Kds1 |
I'll start by filling you guys in, my chain conversion is not any factory part of the stock tensioner modified, I make my own piece from steel not aluminun, it's not heavy enough to weigh past breaking and tearing up the rest of the case or what have you....it's cheaper to carry an extra pound verses buying other parts that the extra pound would have saved tearing up... Paul, what I'm saying is that we make our time up on getting the bike out of the corner under acceleration and the early tq makes it leave about 3 bikes ahead of the others so if you start farther ahead on the straight, sooner or later you will be making time where the bike wants to be ran...too much stress is put on the hd twin to make peak power and this and that when it's design makes power early, so that's why the engine needs to make power early and you will make time on the track...my rider couldn't figure out why his lap times are almost as fast as when he raced his 600F2 and he has only ridden the Buell 5 races, never been on a twin in his life, but he's learning about corner speed and how the engine makes it's power so things are going well for us so far...if everyone continues to look at making peak hp and turning more rpm's on the hd twin, there will always be 10 to 14 ft lbs of useable tq on the lower end early and with the right suspension set up a good rider can find the line that lets him throttle earlier than the rest of the riders....all I'm using on our bike is a Penske rear shock and stock front springs with 10 wt oil, and we'll see how this helps...I try to do one or two small things at a time to see what actually helps, that way you don't break the bank trying to go fast.... Brine, I think the pro series springs would be good for street and mild racing ventures, the problem is not really the spring rates depending on rider weight, but the valve adjustability will not let you compensate for a wide range of dampening especially if the temp gets really hot... www.kdfab.com Kevin | ||
| Ronlv |
saintly where did i mention you, i am not trying to slam you or anyone, i didnt even see your name in this thread i am just stating my experience with my own homemade version and what i have heard from others i am part owners of a machine shop and i have messed with the stock idler, i have used a steel sprocket, i have used a nylon sprocket, i have used the autozone pulley and i even had a custom ureathane pully made, i gurantee you i have spent more time and money on the stock idler than most people have on bike mods then i broke down and payed full retail for the chain conversion(as seen on my bike) from freespirits i loved it and now endorse it. thanks for thinking so highly of me, that when i endorse something people listen, i thought you had to win races for that kind of thing to happen the freespirits product has been RACED for several years now by trojan, freespirits and many many many others later, a-hole(ron) | ||
| Trojan |
I have nothing against home made chain conversions, but if you either haven't got the engineering skills required or just want a turn key solution then the Free Spirits kit takes some beating. On the suspension front we have gone for the best we could get, so have a fully adjustable AST rear shock and a set of Yamaha R1 forks fitted with Traxxion Dynamics AK20 cartridges. The front end is absolutley superb and has needed no adjustment all year since the initial setup. Coupled with the R1 brakes and carbon pads there is nothing that can beat it on the brakes and into the turns. The brakes are nothing short of breathtaking and we use SBS Dual Carbon race pads. These need to be warm before they work well, but are the best pads we have ever used. They also wear extremely well too, having been developed especially for the Phase One endurance racing team. We have now done almost a whole season on the same set of pads!! On the stock ZTL brake we would use up a set of pads at least every meeting and sometimes every race. You can pick up some very good late Jap model front ends on ebay for silly money these days, including front wheels, discs and even radial mount calipers etc, and if you don't have access to or can't afford a new 8 piston ZTL2 caliper then I would recommend this setup to anyone considering going racing. I definitely agree with KD about using the torque to get you onto the straights faster. Look at it like this: Horsepower may decide how fast you go, but torque decides how fast you get there. Weight saving can become an obsession if you are not careful. We have shaved over 60kg from the original Ulysses that we started with, and I am still looking to save another 5kg just to be near the weight limit for our class. Lightweight bodywork does save a lot over the stock plastics and is also easier to fix if you bin it. Don't automatically assume that carbon/kevlar is lighter than fibreglass because it depends upon the manufacturer and the method of construction. Sebimot bodywork is probably the lightest available in either carbon or glass. | ||
| Vonsliek |
thank you so much for the intel & unexpected entertainment (ron & saint). good stuff, all!  particularly tho, i appreciate the sober tone from the racer/race team ppl. its easy to get hyped & spend - but i want solid, reliable, affordable, basic info & i feel i got it. cheers, paul. | ||
| Ronlv |
no problem any time  | ||
| Teeps |
Racing applications aside, "chaining a Buell" is akin to "debarking a Bloodhound." | ||
| Vonsliek |
we are tarkin racin' here. | ||
| Slaughter |
Paul, I gotta chime in here - it's a personal "suspension first" crusade: NOTHING will do more to drop lap times than having a well-sorted/predictable suspension and braking system. Don't worry about trying to keep up with the other types of bikes since in every race organization I'm aware of, the Buell will race among similar bikes - Twins classes or other formula-defined classes. Max at Traxxion can do wonders for these bikes suspensions. I'd wager that a Penske on the back, re-valved/re-sprung forks (or the Traxxion cartridges) can gain you nearly a second and a half over a fast 2-minute course. It would take about 30 HP increase to get you the same gains. Gear the bike to ALMOST hit rev limit at the fastest point on the track (varies track to track) - and you'll likely have the most poop available to pull your hardest out of the turns. People tend to concentrate too much on power rather than handling and miss the point. I had my SV really well sorted after a year (Penske rear, gsxr front) while I was working on building up my XB. When I brought the XB back out on the track, it had maybe 103HP to the SV's 68-72. Took me 2 months to turn faster times on the XB than the SV (same track, same day) - but then I got the XB suspension changed to Penske rear, Traxxion re-worked forks - dialled it in and dropped another 1.5 more seconds. If you can buy lap time without messing with engine reliability, I say do it. Suspension and brake setup does wonders. After that, seat time on the track... give it a season and THEN start thinking about the motor (other than the usual, simple race kit stuff - I'll "approve" those engine mods) (Message edited by slaughter on September 08, 2006) | ||
| Notpurples2 |
I have no experience racing but this is an idea. Maybe others can argue over it. Since the problem is top speed, maybe a racing body would help cut down on wind resistance and give you a little extra on the top-end. If you also got it in carbon fiber or kevlar then the weight might be close to the same or even less than what's on the bike currently. If you really care about weight, can you loose weight yourself? Maybe you're in good shape, but if you're not then you could loose a few pounds. It would be win/win. | ||
| No_rice |
weight and aerodynamics by there self can make you quicker, but not faster... if the thing weighs 5 pounds and is shaped like a bullet with 1000 horses, it will still not go any faster than the gear ratio will allow it to go. it would sure get there alot quicker though (Message edited by no_rice on September 08, 2006) | ||
| Vonsliek |
me - work out at gym a LOT .. 5'9" 169# now .. lots of racer specific exercises i am engineering .. all based on the movements a track bike makes u make & the muscles reqd to do same. anyway .. i think i can loose maybe another 10# before i start to look like rossi - ie: too skinny. all my workouts are based on high reps for endurance, slow running, fast high-resistance stationary biking & med weight leg-strengthening exercises. diet is ok .. anyway .. i keep hering the susp. thing but now i am getting tasty #'s to go w/ it & everyone to a TEE, says penske rear/traxxion front .. from varying, unrelated sources, so it must hold water! consider it done! i find buell's brakes on track to lack a little on hard braking at 220kmh .. i am assuming oil & pad material can be improved. i WILL get the S1 windscreen .. sebimoto body & dragons .. loose all wiring not reqd & maybe fan. see how that goes.. i have faith. | ||
| Björn |
A question for Trojan (or anybody who knows!!) Does the R1 forks fit directly in the stock triple trees? That's probably the cheapest way to get a dual brakedisc setup so I'm hoping it fits without any machining or fabrication regarding the triples! Best regards, Björn | ||
| Slaughter |
Notpurples2 - the problem is not really top speed as much as best/usable acceleration, hard-turning, braking/turning (trail braking)- top speed is a small part of lower lap times as Matt indicated above. If you don't have the "room" to reach top speed, it means you're giving up acceleration (need to gear the bike down lower). Willow Springs is a classic case where the racetrack is so fast in sections that it seems to beg for taller gearing BUT you still can't hit rev limit with stock gearing on most bikes so you gear the bike down to get more usable acceleration. Aero drag is just one of the factors in cutting down lap times - can't be ignored but just not such a big factor. Carbon bodywork might shave off a few pounds but I'd tend to use fiberglass and put the $200-500 saved into suspension or more track days. (and I can get carbon nearly free - and still build fiberglass stuff for the racebike) (Message edited by slaughter on September 09, 2006) | ||
| Glitch |
Ed Bargy never mentioned having to have the most powerful bike with the most top speed. He simply said, the person that's on the gas the most wins. So you see, it really comes down to how long can you stay on the gas before you have to stop accelerating for the turn, and how soon you can get back on the gas after the turn. | ||
| Tleighbell |
I would appreciate the collective wisdom on the merits of the 9 vs 12 engine configurations. I am replacing my 9S and debating whether to go for a 12. I would definitely put a pipe etc. (probably Micron or Drummer) and direct link on the 9 but would probably leave the 12 engine alone. Cost would end up about the same. | ||
| Vonsliek |
glitch .. many have mentioned same as ed .. i totally believe .. i really think experience, great, warm tires & some faith in bike & self add up. one thing i did on street corners that i just realised i don't do on track (due to panic, no doubt) is the mick doohan *slipper clutch* of feathering the clutch lever on corners, so keep bike rear stable & keep revs up. must return to that technique - which i really did intuitively & then esp. when i read mick did it; i think it may well help the buell on track. note to self: get new style clutch lever (reduced action .. or, whatever its called). also - to anyone reading this - stock footpegs are slippery for really weighting (so far as i am concerned) .. i read in brit mag that roughing pegs w/ course file (bastard) helps gain traction on peg end). i guess race-type pegs help even more?! i am actually excited abt lightening bike & just trying good tires w/ light weight & advanced riding skills. as it isn't too much slower than a 600. | ||
| Trojan |
A question for Trojan (or anybody who knows!!) Does the R1 forks fit directly in the stock triple trees? That's probably the cheapest way to get a dual brakedisc setup so I'm hoping it fits without any machining or fabrication regarding the triples! Best regards, Björn Hi Bjorn, The R1 forks are not a straight fit into the XB yokes/triples I'm afraid, as the forks are set slightly wider than the XB to clear the wheel/rotors. We had new triples made by a local company in billet (they make steam engines for a living!) using the width of the R1 yokes and the offset etc of the Buell ones. Alternatively you could use the R1 triples and get a new stem made up to fit the Buell headstock. It would also be worth looking at other bikes such as the GSXR range or the ZXR636R Kawasaki that use radial calipers as stock to see if these would fit using the stock Buell triples. | ||
| Björn |
Thanks Matt  I was hoping it was something easy but since it's not I can have my friend (www.karlingracing.com) make triples in his CNC mill and then buy some nice forks with radial calipers! My friend with the mill also knows ISR so I would probably use his brakes. But since it's not a "quick fix" I'll have to wait for the wallet to grow fatter  Thanks for your reply!!! /Björn |
