| Author | Message | ||
     Pisymbol |
HD offers a liquid-cooled V-Twin around 1200cc. Why the heck doesn't Buell use this as the basis for a new streetfighter? I realize some love the air-cooled sound, but the liquid cooled V-Twin can offer a lot more performance and make the Lightening more competitive. Thoughts? | ||
| Tpoppa |
It is too big and heavy for a sportbike application. I think it's far more likely to see that motor on a touring bike. | ||
| Pisymbol |
Is it really that much heavier that it can't be used? Anybody know the actual weight difference? | ||
| Bads1 |
Tooooooo costly!!!! The motor would make Buells cost out of its market place. And yes heavy. | ||
| Diablobrian |
It's also tall and long. Rumor has it it was intended to be a Buell motor, but proportions of the end product made it un-viable for a Buell. | ||
| Pisymbol |
Damn, that sucks...I would have thought that Buell wanted to go with a liquid cooled substance at somepoint. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Erik has gone on record many times saying that he prefers the simplicity of air cooled motors. Who knows what the future may bring though, performance is also heavily on Erik's mind. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Liquid cooled substance - Just pee on the heads | ||
| Diablobrian |
Or if you ride through a big enough puddle you can make your Buell water cooled. | ||
| Court |
The VROD motor is a pig designed by a committee. You will never see it in a Buell. | ||
| Tq_freak |
GOOD, Im glad the V-rod motor will never be used. I agree with court that it is a pig and weights way to much for what it is Hear no revo, See no revo, Ride no revo (Message edited by tq_freak on July 31, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
I have never seen the comparative weights of the two drivetrains. Yes, the VROD bike is very heavy but I have no idea how much the drivertrain contributes to the difference. Ditto the cost. How much DOES the VROD drivetrain cost vs. the XB. Lots of opinions, no data so far. | ||
| Court |
Actually this had been discussed ad naseum since the day the VROD was introduced. The VROD is an excellent motor for what it is being used for. It is, for a litany of previously discussed (with stats, weights, costs, etc), a poor choice for a nimble sport type application. That being said, I confess that the new VRSC VROD is the first VROD to really catch my eye. Court | ||
| Kuuud |
Does anyone know the approximate weight differences of the VRod motor v/s the 'lump' v/s something like the KTM 950 v-twin? Court, I don't follow your alphabet soup...are you referring to the VRSCAW or the 'X' or one of the others? Bret | ||
| Court |
The weights were all documented, the KTM's, Buells, VRODs and so forth a year or two ago when this discussion first surfaced. I'm sure it's all buried in the archives somewhere. It's that VRSCDX, in all black ala the old Sturgis, that is a real eye catcher. Truth be known if I were buying a Harley-Davidson it'd be:
Lord save me..... | ||
| Pisymbol |
Air cooled maybe simpler but its also self-limiting. I'm not sure how you battle heat let alone emissions. It would seem to me in the longterm either Buell has to develop his own engine based off an HD platform or HD has to develop a sportier engine that Buell can use. Is this any reason why there aren't Scream'n Eagle editions of the Buell line up (at least from the motor perspective)? | ||
| Kuuud |
Court, yeah, but I'm WAY too lazy to search the archives...LOL The Night Rod Special is hot! They finally squeezed a bigger fuel tank in the frame, but forgot to add inverted forks. It does have the exhaust system off the regular Night Rod, so the first thing I would do is fit the mid-controls from it onto the 'Special'. Bret | ||
| Kuuud |
Re: The FXR...it's funny how things change. When I had one (1989) you couldn't buy but a few, if any, accessories for it. It was all about Softails! Many riders looked down on the rubber-glides saying that the frame style looked too Japanese!!! It was one of the best bikes I ever had! But it seemed like no sooner was it replaced by the Dyna, that everyone complained about the loss of the FXR! Some things never change, I also remember back when if you rode a 'shovel' you were looked down upon as a newbie, and now they're 'old school'!!! Seems like the same type of people that now denegrate the VRod. One dealer near here has a new '06 Street Rod for $11995...must resist, must... Bret | ||
| Court |
>>>>>Court, yeah, but I'm WAY too lazy to search the archives I'm about just as eager to have a VROD motor in a sportbike. Case closed. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Still think Buell needs to buddy up with KTM and design an engine that would set the world on its ear. Buell handling with a lightweight, powerful KTM motor. Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! | ||
| Rkc00 |
Kuuud, What dealer might that be? Mike Long Island, NY 06 XB12X Black of course | ||
| Kuuud |
Z & M in Greensburg (near Pittsburgh), PA. It's a Black Street Rod and WAS there about 2 weeks ago. ...and I did check the archives re: my previous question. It seems that according to previous posts, the VRod motor is somewhere between 15 and 100 pounds heavier than the 'lump'...Good Grief, I would guess it's closer to the latter than the former...but who really knows!? Bret | ||
| Court |
>>>> I would guess it's closer to the latter than the former That's an accurate statement. It's a pig....fit for a HOG. | ||
| Grimel |
Pisymbol, Did you bother actually looking at anything or just start blasting the air cooled engine? 1) it meets the emmissions specs as is without a cat. Guess Buell still can use a cat to meet the next go around of emmsions spec changes 2) why does a Buell NEED more power to be competative? It has goto jail speed. The Uly will run with all the non-Buell sportbikes in the curves. The standard Buells and CityX will show them their taillight. Oh, and the Buell gets better gas milage. 3) the V-Rod motor is known to be a)long, b) tall, and c) heavy. Not to mention needing a radiator. That may not sound like much, but, for a short wheelbase, mass centralized, keep the weight low bike those are show stoppers. 4) what is wrong with a bike that is EASY to ride fast? finally, 5) why are some people so determined to have technology for technology's sake? More complicated, more frequent, and more expensive maint is just what I do NOT want. | ||
| Percyco |
and make the Lightning more competitive. Competitive for what ? Its a streetfighter  But then again......"Blade" traded his Firebolt for a Night Rod didnt he. Maybe you guys have a point after all. | ||
| Pisymbol |
Grimel: I'm not blasting the air-cooled engine. Its a nice engine. But an air-cooled platform is not going to cut in the long term (emissions and heat come to mind). Moreover, to be frank, I wouldn't say the Thunderstorm is the pillar of even V-Twin technology so I admit there is plenty room of improvement without changing engines. Furthermore, as many many people have cited the V-ROD program is an indication that HD needs a liquid cooled platform to compete in the long run. I definitely agree with that assessment, especially in the power/sport cruiser market. I remember when the V-ROD was introduced and how a lot of "die-hard" HD fans blasted it and touted it as the beginning of the end. Whatever. I also believe that handling as well as "go to jail" speed are important when reviewing a streetfighter/naked bike. Finally, its my personal opinion that a liquid cooled engine provides a more modifiable platform which means a bigger aftermarket. Air-cooled really limits you due to heat. Again, I'm a big Buell fan (and I don't even own one) just on its looks, design philosophy, and as a package as a whole. My original question was just a mental exercise on my part without a lot of research in the matter. Cheers! | ||
| Fullpower |
Pi symbol I have been following your argument, and have one point you may be able to illuminat e for me. when you say that "air-cooling limits you due to heat" what limitation(s) are you refering to? It is my observation that when running an air cooled motor, you just cant run out of coolant. with a cylinder head temperature of around say 350 degrees or so the bike cares not too much about ambient conditons, that is to say the difference between 70 degrees and 100 may be a big deal for the rider, but the cylinder head will still feel a 110 degree breeze as "COOLANT" I am very much interested in your observations, and perhaps you have actually seen or heard of a modern four stroke aircooled engine "overheating" cheers. Dean. | ||
| Pisymbol |
At a certain point Dean, air-cooled doesn't cover it. Heck, take a look at the procharger website when they talk about intercooled superchargers compared to air cooled. I think the ambient temperature of a intercooled S/C is like 28 degrees instead of 110. Look, if you want to argue that the P/W ratio is low enough that you can reach a level of performance more than significant for the naked/streetfighter market, FINE. Time will tell though. But PLEASE, don't tell me air-cooled engines are going to outperform their liquid equivalents. I just don't see that happening. Are they more reliable, maybe (less moving parts)...do they sound better, yeah, probably, depends....are they faster...no! Again, I'm not BASHING Buell or the Thunderstorm. I'm merely thinking a decade a head and wondering what a Buell will actually look like. My OPINION is that Buell won't be on an air-cooled platform. Its one man's opinion, don't take offense!  ! | ||
| Midknyte |
But PLEASE, don't tell me air-cooled engines are going to outperform their liquid equivalents. All anyone of us has said is that water cooling is not necessary...  | ||
| Kootenay |
That's right, no-one has said that air-cooling is superior. All IC engines waste their excess heat to the environment. The only difference between "air cooled" and "liquid cooled" is the method of transferring heat to the surrounding air--"air cooled" engines transfer the heat directly, using finning to increase surface area, while "liquid cooled" engines use an intermediate heat transfer fluid and radiator to transfer heat from the engine to the surrounding air. The advantage of liquid cooling is that the heat transfer fluid can be put in more intimate contact with engine parts than air, including some internal areas (this is more significant an advantage on an I4 engine), and also that engine operating temperatures can be controlled far more closely through the use of thermostatic flow control. The disadvantage is complexity (I won't say weight, because the fluid and radiator don't necessarily outweigh the finning required on an air-cooled engine). For use as a streetbike powerplant, air cooling is sufficient. For racing use, it remains to be seen, although I doubt you'll be seeing any air-cooled MotoGP bikes anytime soon. |
