| Author | Message | ||
     Vonsliek |
so, i find it hard - even tho i am told i am doing good & have good body position - to get the feeling that my knee is ANYWHERE near the kerbing - even tho i have scraped my toe sliders. my question is: when weighting the pegs, say making a hairpin or slightly faster turn .. shd the majority of the riders weight be on the OUTSIDE peg (as i cannot see at this point how easy it cld be to weight the inside peg while having the knee out & the toes scraping)?! i tried it on one 90 deg fast turn & it felt like i was getting closer to the right idea. any racers care to share?  paul. | ||
| M1combat |
They say riding a motorcycle at speed is a lot like slalom skiing... | ||
| Duff24 |
I know in motocross I was always told that's the way to ride when turning, to keep your weight on your outside foot. Not sure about street bikes yet. Planning on track day next month with some privateer buellers, I'll find out then... Don't think it would be practical at that lean angle to have your weight on the outside. Mostly just hangin off the bike to the inside. | ||
| Diablobrian |
yeah, at max lean some riders have the outside foot up off the peg! So obviously you are weighting the inside peg in a turn. The difference between off and on road racing is all about the amount of traction available. | ||
| Jaimec |
Which peg you're weighting depends on the speed of the turn. On a low speed turn (like in a parking lot), you weight the OUTSIDE peg as you lean the bike and essentially leave your body straight up and down. On a high speed turn, you're shifting your weight to the INSIDE of the bike so the weight will primarily be on your INSIDE foot. However, in my own personal experience, a lot of that weight is actually being supported by your thigh on the outside of the turn as it is pressed into the tank... | ||
| Diablobrian |
He did ask about a hairpin or faster turn. Jaimec, you are correct about the tank being an anchor point as well. The big thing is allowing the bike to remain more upright by moving your mass toward the inside and lower. Remember that hanging off the bike in a corner is exactly the kind of body english that the cops look for on the street when looking for speeders. It may be to your benefit to keep your pace slow enough that you can remain in the saddle .(on the STREET) On the track things are completely different. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
This is a great topic because body english/positioning is the most VITAL part of more advanced riding skills. When I was first learning to ride on 2 wheels (vs. 3 and 4 wheeled ATVs) the most important thing I found that made me more comfortable and accelerated my learning was discovering how the bike was reacting beneath me. The other half of this equation which seems more difficult to master is the setup/entry into a turn. On the brakes/body postitioned/lean angle/smooth off the brakes/smooth on the throttle. | ||
| Vonsliek |
its ok .. on the street i am almost a model citizen .. i accelerate to speed limit +10, then come down. anyway, i am only referring to track riding, as that is where my interest lays. i asked abt weighting pegs, coz it feels like my outside thigh is working hard .. i guess its just the muscles supporting me hanging off?? weird feeling & i still feel bike is getting ready to lose it every now & then, but then again it nearly DID last night on wet track on hairpin .. squirrely back then front & my leg came out (a la rossi) & i saved it .. took it a little easier after that on that turn. just wondering how toes can scrape b4 knee, if knee is out .. but then again, maybe my knee isnt as far out as i think??!! >:\ thanks anyways. paul. | ||
| M1combat |
You may be rotating the hips out with more "rotation" than you need and aiming your pelvis back towards the middle too much. That said... I've dragged my toes and skimmed the pegs a couple times, but I haven't put my knee down yet. Elbow once, but never my knee... | ||
| Bigblock |
As you progress and become more sensitive to what is happening with you and your bike, you may notice that weighting the inside or out side peg can have an effect on steering and the line you take. Weighting the inside peg can tighten your line and also tend to push the rear out, or oversteer,and weighting the inside peg can tend to widen your line and push the front, or understeer. Depending on bike, suspension setup, rider skill and sensitivity, etc... Unless of course I've got it completely bass ackwards, I'm no title-holding race instructor, after all. Actually, what the title winning race instructor told me was weight the inside peg. What the title winning dirtracker- who -became- a- roadracer said was weight the outside, and then proceeded to pass me(and several other students, and another instructor) on the inside of the long sweeper in the DIRT! (racetrack, not street) At your own risk, YMMV, etc... | ||
| Metalstorm |
For some reason I seem to weigh my outside peg more than the inside. I have zero dirt experience so I can't blame it on that.  It has however been a long known fact that I AM completely ass backwards  | ||
| Cochise |
I was told by a Track Day veteran that your butt is off the seat and your weight is on the direction of the turn. | ||
| Vonsliek |
i was looking photos from the fast group & notices that the most KNEE down guy was on a ducati 749 dark & he is a biggish guy & was totally OFF the bike .. knee buried in the ground .. looked weird, as motogp guy lean more & hang off not quite as much .. i try to lean it till it feels like its gonna slide away from me .. no chicken strips .. but no knee .. ack! it'll come. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
just because you dont have a knee down doesnt mean that you arent riding well! not every rider drags knee around every corner, nor is it actually necessary at all times. hanging off does help though. generally, for hanging off purposes and to answer your inside vs outside peg question, weighting the inside peg is the ticket (i asked ed bargy while at jennings http://www.edbargyracingschool.com/) if youre dragging toes, then make sure youre riding on the balls of your feet. dragging toes before other stuff means you ride with your toes pointed out - and this aint ballet  you might also want to check your suspension setup - have you ever adjusted it? however, as many who follow my exploits and adventures already know, hanging off the bike is a crucial part for me to reach the next level in racing. (see profile pic for those who dont know...yes thats my shifter scraping) there's several ways to do this, all of which i've tried in the last 2 months at race practice day in may, race practice/weekend in may, trackday in may, and race practice/weekend in june. suggestions i got. ride with weight on pegs, clamp tank with legs, lock your position on tank with knees (you'll know when you do this, because your legs and knees will hurt after a couple laps) put head down low, where your mirror would be, toward where you want to go (this didnt work for me, at least not when i tried it consciously, though it makes a lot of sense academically to get your head and shoulders and upper body weight down lower and shifted toward inside of turn) move 1 butt cheek off seat. (worked ok for me, but felt highly unnatural and made me twitchy in steering because i'm not very smooth at it) think about the fact that if you're hanging off bike and fall, its less far to fall (dubious logic but strangely comforting in a warped racer brain way) here's what's worked for me, and yes, i've officially now touched my knee down a couple of times while practicing. prior to this, i got a knee down once by total accident. i was following a rider much better/faster/smoother than me down the straight and ended up in turn 1 WAY too hot for my ability. ended up having to slam it right, tuck, lean, dive in, and hope. ended up making a seriously abrupt, heavy lean angle manuever which saved me from running off. also dragged my toe, my knee, my bike on the ground doing it. but that was just instinct to save myself from running off/crashing, not intentional behavior. back to what's actually worked for me, to get my knee down. i still cant do it ALL the time, but am confident with more practice i will be smoother and more consistent with this. move 1/2 butt cheek off seat, stick knee out, dive into turn while thinking about holding bike up and using my body to weight the turn. getting a knee down the first time actually alarmed me, i picked my knee up mid turn when it happened!  did it 2 more times that practice session. regardless, the point is to lower your center of gravity by moving your weight to inside of turn. that scientifically, makes sense to me. its just hard to execute when there are SO MANY other things going on. but you gotta work at it, and it'll pay dividends! have fun, be fast and safe, D (Message edited by buellgirlie on June 23, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
You've done a good job with your post there Dora. You are right, you do not have to touch your knee down to go fast! The lightweight class bikes, the sv650's and XB's are actually harder to drag knees on while carrying the same pace as the MW/HW il4's. We were surprised by this phenomenon when we started into racing and doing track days with the lightweight class bikes. Dora's post is far more practical than all the theory and cg stuff I was spouting  | ||
| Vonsliek |
yadda yadda .. ok ok already! ;P bitch slapped already! ;P ;P here's the rub .. i kinda agree .. knee down aint necessarily faster .. but its a heroics kinda thing .. my toes were relatively IN pointing .. i ride on BALLS of FEET ALL the time .. street or track .. NEVER typical style .. i am pretty damn serious abt this & as soon as i learn something i make it ritual. obsessive/addictive personality. toe sliding was fun .. that is motivation for post .. i want the knee scrape .. we have uneven asphalt, gophers, rain & hail, what appear to be high kerbing .. nothing concerns me other than how to get ass off seat .. i am a slim, athletic build .. no ass to speak of .. i cld feel cramps in innerthigh - which i have been working out on at gym to give me strength to grip tank - after a few laps of knee-outing .. i am hustling to get into sold-out race school one-on-one next wednesday .. all day 7:30-5:30 .. so i can bloody get some instruction & feedback on my lack of off bike ability. buelliegirl - is it dora - why can't u be here, or me there .. can i visit & ride w/ u?? c'mon love .. i won't cramp yr style .. i'm an aussie afterall .. so rude, its charming! pauly. | ||
| Slaughter |
Use the knee to gage your lean angle. Not so much dragging but just skimming the pavement. I have found that until my knee touches, I don't have the "feel" for the bike and the pavement. Once the knee touches down, you can automatically judge where everything is. (that being said, the first day I consistently got my knee down, I MASHED it as hard as I could so I could get some "credibility" ground into my knee pucks ) Also if you have your knee down and start to lose the front end, you have about half a second to lighten the front with your knee before it tucks (I'm about 75% successful on not crashing doing this - it's better to unload the front with throttle if it's pushing or sliding but doesn't always work) - I'm just finding myself conscious of keeping the front end light as possible just after turning-in. IF you're touching your toes and/or hard parts or pegs and the bike's not sliding, you probably do need to get more weight off the bike - I still have the stock XB9R peg position and really never touch the pegs but was sliding more often as my lap times dropped and I got more comfortable exiting under power. | ||
| Jaimec |
In regards to the comment of the legs cramping up... I know what you mean! By the end of California Superbike Level 3 I needed a hot tub for my lower extremities! Definitely need to get into the gym for some legwork! | ||
| Tleighbell |
To answer your original question, the answer is weight the inside peg going in and around the turn. I find this helps steering and seems to add stability. I have it from reliable sources that you must weight the outside peg when exiting the turn in order to increase traction for the drive. So far, I personally am not driving hard enough for that to matter and with the Buell's big bang motor and relatively modest power, it may not be crucial. | ||
| Skyguy |
Don't try to drag your knee. It will happen naturally when you get faster. Big ++ on the comment about cops looking for body posture. I just rode with seven CHP officers Wed and everyone stayed in thier seats running 85 to 110 mph turns on upper Tijunga and the Crest. No knees dragged. | ||
| Dago |
Re: Weighting the Pegs I asked Ty Howard that exact question Monday. His answer was to always weight your inside peg. "It stabilizes the suspension", he says. When I see him again at the next school, I'll ask if he feels if there are any exceptions to this rule. Something else he said that I found interesting was when he spoke of trying to put as much weight on your feet as possible while braking. I'll be working on this more my next time out. | ||
| M1combat |
I think that putting as much weight on your feet as possible is to use where your knees anchor as a "pivot" of sorts... kinda the same thing with Rossi dropping one leg off under braking... | ||
| Rhun |
not to plug another forum or negate any of the great responses but you might be better off by posting this on the ccsracing forum. There are many accomplished racers and instructors who are very generous with advice there. Many are Buell racers. | ||
| Rhun |
per Kenny Roberts, the guy who supposedly started the knee dragging thing, the function of putting your knee down is to give another reference point to determine how much sliding you are doing. As my flexibility left me about the time he mastered this, about the only knee dragging I can accomplish is when crashing. | ||
| Spike |
Interesting topic. Keith Code and Kevin Schwantz teach to weight the outside peg, while Freddie Spencer teaches to weight the inside. The guys on the NESBA forum seem to be split between inside and outside, with a slight majority towards weighting the outside. We've all seen Rossi's technique of removing the inside foot on corner entry, so obviously he's not weighting the inside at that point. On the other hand, there are pictures of Duhamel with his outside foot off the peg, so he can't be weighting the outside at that point. With this many varying opinions from experienced riders the only thing I can figure is that peg weighting just isn't that critical. | ||
| M1combat |
Agreed... I think the rest of "proper form" is much more important... Look to the apex and beyond, loose arms, grip with legs, spine not "crossed up" with the bike, head over and in, proper brake modulation while throttle blipping, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... | ||
| Metalstorm |
I noticed something today on the ride home from work. Yes I do weigh the outside peg but in doing so I'm able to scoot my butt over without upsetting the bike. I don't hang off my bike like a racer, I see no point on the street but I do scoot my butt over a couple inches & let my upper body hang off a bit so to speak. When I tried this today with my weight on the inside peg the bike did turn in a breath tighter but I couldn't keep the bike as stable as normal when I shifted my body weight over to the inside. So I guess the moral of the story is; weigh the peg that works for you | ||
| M1combat |
Pretty much... I don't know if it's "right" but I tend to throw the bike around under me with my knees... It's hard to explain though because I do it as the bike goes under me by itself (or... due to my steering) so I don't impart force to the bike, I just move myself across (but really staying where I'm at) as the bike goes under.... | ||
| Jlnance |
With this many varying opinions from experienced riders the only thing I can figure is that peg weighting just isn't that critical. I think you're right. I'm trying to figure out the physics of this, and I don't peg weighting matters. What matters is the movement of your center of gravity. If you move your CG, it definitly changes the way you weight the pegs, but it's also possible to change your peg weighting w/o moving your CG. That makes it difficult to look at peg weight alone and know whats going on. | ||
| Dago |
If you have all your weight on the outside peg, how are you able to use your inside knee to help hold the bike (and you) up while drifting? Are you just dangling your knee out there simply to get a perspective on how much lean you have? If that's the case, you're missing out on some beneficial leverage and walking a finer line between having traction and not. It's a great feeling to actually realize you can avoid a low side by holding up the bike with your inside leg/knee. (Slaughter describes it well above) I don't see how you could do it without having a firmly planted inside foot. That is unless you're using a ton of muscle and energy to support your body weight as your inside foot rests softly on the peg and your outside leg is firmly planted on the peg while tucked tightly in the concave indention of the tank. But that seems like a great deal of wasted energy to me. If you're truly getting your body to the inside of the bike while at lean, and you're leaned over enough to drag parts/knee, and you put weight on the outside peg, then I'm willing to bet you work your ass off out there and are sore as can be the next day. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Just get your ass off the seat. It will come. Just look at my Profile pic. I also race and the knee down does help, but there are plenty of guys and gals that race that are fast as hell and only put a knee down when needed. I think dwelling on it makes it that much more difficult. I noticed in my last race I concentrated on better lines, knocked off about 2 seconds per lap and had my knee down on the track half as much as I used to. | ||
| Col_klink |
Let's be clear: peg weighting can be used to (a) lock one's outside leg into the tank; AND (b) to aid steering. Spike has it right - it ain't that critical for (b) Steering. Although Keith Code teaches outside peg weighting to aid steering, it is taught as an advanced technique, probably for riders who got their knees scraped a long time ago. I disagree that hanging on to the bike in turns should be tiring. It should be comfortable and relaxed. If it is tiring you, the bike's tank/footpeg position, or your technique may be wrong. Ideally your outside foot pushes (gently) on the peg, lifting your knee and locking it into the underside of the tank. (Some tanks are better than others - my favorite was the 996 tank) Once your outside leg is locked in, the rest of you can relax. If your tank doesn't have a "lip" to tuck your knee into (and XBs don't), then Stomp grip is a substitute, although it requires a harder push. Dunno if Stomp do a kit for XBs. Anyone? No doubt Code, Spencer et al, all have good IP. But I think it is important to get your riding style from one source. As this thread amply demonstrates, if you ask a lot of people, you'll get a lot of opinions. Consistency is needed. Another poster mentioned moving from side to side on the bike, as one transitions from left turn to right (or vice versa). I picked up a neat trick at Superbike school for this: If you keep your outside knee locked to the bike (as you should) then you just push in with that knee and voila, your ass moves across to the other side! If anyone's interested in a nobber's view of Superbike School, I have a report on my website: http://users.bigpond.net.au/nwarne/index.htm Cheers, Klink | ||
| Slaughter |
What matters is the movement of your center of gravity EXACTLY | ||
| Buellgirlie |
regardless, the point is to lower your center of gravity by moving your weight to inside of turn. ahem, i quote "myself"  D | ||
| Diablobrian |
"The big thing is allowing the bike to remain more upright by moving your mass toward the inside and lower." And I quote...ME too ,.....I guess  (Message edited by diablobrian on June 24, 2006) | ||
| Buellgirlie |
everyone pile on! actually, can we just go get a drink? oh wait, i cant drink on the pain meds......bah!! friday night, on the internet, love it. i did, however, walk down the street and have a nice dinner with my dad earlier tonight. he's been here for the last week helping me around the house as i heal from the crash. he flies back to texas tomorrow and i'm on my own again. D | ||
| Vonsliek |
 so here i am getting ready to take a turn in 2nd .. its a fairly tight but reasonable increasing radius turn .. knee getting ready .. i am looking at the flag marshall to see if session is nearly over - poor form, but u gots to watch the flags. posted this to break the ice. | ||
| Diablobrian |
It's funny, I CAN'T hang off any more, but a few people have been surprised by the pace I can maintain on the street, even 2 up. In fact, being 2 up doesn't change my style of riding as much as it will change most of yours  I call it my "BMW style" because I used to see the beemer guys smoking the posers on Mt. Palomar without moving off of the seat. It's not the best way to go around corners, and you have to TRUSTyour tires, your chassis,and your skills to do it. Why do you think I run Diablo Corsas on the street? Grip, feedback, and predictability. As it stands, I won't be "king of the mountain" anywhere, but I still remember how to ride properly. I agree after some reflection that proper body position and form are far more important than what peg you feel you are carrying more weight on. Stay loose, look through the corner, and get the weight inside and low. Keep the bike as upright as possible to keep the contact patch as large as possible. Use those thighs to grip and control the bike. Arm pump is far less of an issue if you carry your upper body weight with your abdominal muscles, not your arms. Don't practice TRYING to go really fast and drag knees. Practice proper form. You should be surprised when your knee touches down. Speed will naturally follow good form. Ride calm, cool, and collected. You will make fewer mistakes that way. Also ride your own ride. Do not get fixated on the rider in front of you. That is essentially the same thing as watching the pavement right infront of your wheel during a turn. It will end badly. Once you get the skills mastered you'll be amazed at how much time you have to think, and react to things because your body will be doing it's job more or less on auto-pilot. That's enough rambling for now. |
