| Author | Message | ||
     Luckydevil |
First of all, nice work! very complete. But... there are still a few questions that the shootout doesn't quite answer. And it wasn't supposed to answer them... but they still exist. Like... It has been put forward that changing the exhaust systems (just the exhaust, not the ecm or airbox) can create a dangerous lean condition. In the Exhaust Shoot out the evidence suggest this as well. However, it appears that both of the bikes were run with intake kits. Only the baseline runs were done without intake modification. The "stock" ECM runs performed with different exhausts were done with air box kits in place. I am not b!tching. Really. The shootout did exactly what it was intended to do and did it very well. I am sure the participants would agree that the information gathered from a muffler+airbox run vs. a muffler alone would not be the same. This should create a new set of Air/Fuel Ratios. As the shootout states, the Air/Fuel Ratios which were graphed only represent a wide open throttle condition. Sure, not having an air box kit it would be like running with the choke on... or perhaps not. I don't know. Given the number of contradictory opinions being typed here on BadWeb, i thought i would ask the question. Does adding a "just a muffler" make the bike run dangerously lean? With an intake kit,and stock ECM at wide open throttle, the evidence shows that it does. Does anyone have a set of dyno runs with fuel and power curves that show how each component of a "Race Kit" changes from stock alone, separately and together? Since Buell has discontinued the race kit, and the race muffler, people will have to piece their own kit together. If you cant buy it all at once, then how can pieces be added safely over time? Does the muffler have more of an effect than the intake? How would a stock muffler+airbox kit+Race ECM perform? Would it run too lean? Would it bring any performance benefit to someone who does not like the louder exhaust? These are just the questions raised in my mind as i read the Shootout. I guess i am volunteering to help, if anyone is interested in running another and different test. I have an xb12s and all of the stock and buell race kit components for it that i would be willing to bring to the table. I live in the Denver area. Anyone else interested? After reading the other posts i will not be surprised if everyone runs screaming. (Message edited by luckydevil on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Glitch |
Would it run too lean? Is this too lean?  | ||
| Freezerburn |
Ouch Glitch!!!! Lucky, the Race ECM won't actuate the servo for the exhaust valve me thinks. On the 9 it is moot but maybe a concern for the 12. | ||
| Glitch |
That's from an XB12. I'll see if I can dig up a pic of the head. | ||
| Glitch |
Here it is.  | ||
| Hogs |
seems abit of carbon in there, Hmmm Guess that plug was put in after the damaged happened?? | ||
| Glitch |
Guess that plug was put in after the damaged happened?? Yeah, it was put in to show where the spark hole is, the hole just looked like a dark spot without the plug. | ||
| M1combat |
Specific cause? | ||
| Bigdaddy |
I'm going to guess,,,,way lean, big breather, low restriction exhaust,,,no additional gas. (I learned that expensive lesson too) G2 | ||
| Glitch |
BMC said it ran lean. It had a free flowing exhaust, with a K&N. I'll not name the exhaust. | ||
| Luckydevil |
yes that looks awful but... no offense, it doesn't look like an air/fuel ratio chart. I have to ask the same question as M1Combat. Where did you get the photo and what was the specific cause? Did you open it up yourself, or did the shop open it up and then tell you it was your fault? is it your pic, or one that you got from someone else with a story attached? Sportster or Buell? I don't know you, and i am not implying that you are misinformed or under-informed or lying or anything. I hope you can understand why i won't take anything at face vaule that gets posted on the web. Running low octane gas can cause piston burning detonation. forget to fill the oil and you can snap a rod or seize a piston. A bad injector or O2 sensor can run a terminal lean condition too. pull the air filter and running without can cause leaning too. Drop a nut down the throat of a carb fed sporty and you can get a similar picture. Sorry if i'm being a picky SOB, but pics don't constitute data. | ||
| Glitch |
Rob, as I said above, it's from an XB12 that ran way lean from a free flowing exhaust, and a K&N. The engine was taken apart by and diagnosed by a certified Buell Tech, and BMC had their hand in there too. I hope you can understand why i won't take anything at face vaule that gets posted on the web. I understand, and I hope you understand that I'm not one to bullshit anyone here on BadWeb, I have a little more at stake than a user name on some message board. Sorry if i'm being a picky SOB It's OK there's one in every crowd  but pics don't constitute data. Yeah well data ain't got a good reputation around here lately. | ||
| M1combat |
Can I assume it didn't have a race ECM? any idea how many miles? Thanks for the answers Glitch  . | ||
| 71sportster |
From the Pics, it Looks more to me like a serious detonation problem and/or a valve collision with the piston dome? | ||
| 71sportster |
Lean running condition will cause a top end to seize. I've seen pistons, rings & jugs "welded" together and pistons rip the jugs right off the cases, but never a cracked, or exploded piston like that, from running lean. (Message edited by 71sportster on June 15, 2006) | ||
| Luckydevil |
Glitch, my reply sat on my desktop for about an hour and i submitted it way after your first reply. apologies. i agree that data has been questioned pretty strongly recently. Seems to me that a lot of that has come from frustration. we all want our choices to be proven the best, our favorites to be the winners, but i don't think there were any losers in the shootout. typical margin of error could make up a lot of the differences people were upset about. So... this pic is from an xb12 with airbox mods and hipo muffler. Most of the Q and A i have seen assume that both airbox and pipes have been upgraded. i'd still like to know what the air/fuel curve for a hipo muffler with stock airbox looks like. Is the standard airbox restriction enough to keep the above from happening? Or not? I do not know. Is there a safe performance gain to be had by changing just one part be it airbox or muffler? How is the restriction to airflow divided between the muffler and the intake? Or is it just a fact of life that with a buell you will have to spend between $700 and $1000 to see numbers better than stock safely. (what was the line from Princess Bride? "Life is pain princess. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.") A lot of folks want to get the sound, (does this seem a little "harley" to anyone?) but are happy with stock performance. There is a fresh post in the exhaust section from someone wondering what the outcome of a stock muffler with race ecm and airbox mods would be. i'd like to know too. I think it is worth investigating. Rob p.s. i own a 76 sporty with LOUD LOUD pipes. Very "Harley" of me.  | ||
| Ikeman |
Wouldn't all of this be solved if the Buell FI utilized a mass airflow sensor? I own/have owned several turbocharged cars and the ECM in all of them was able to adapt easily to intake and exhaust changes. Actually, the ECM was able to adjust outside the limits of the fueling system in the car. Meaning if you upsized the turbo the ECM wasn't the problem it was either the injectors or the fuel pump unable to physically supply the fuel being demanded by the ECM. I'm no FI expert by any means but it just seems that motorcycle fuel injection in general is way behind the 4-wheelers. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Alot of being "behind" comes from size restraints. (I would think) | ||
| Luckydevil |
ikeman, Yeah, pretty much. But that would cost more. Rob | ||
| Olinxb12r |
That thing is destroyed! I hope mine doesn't look like that! I have an open airbox, K&N and a Jardine on my 12R. It has ran strong as ever with seemingly no issues for the last 6,000 miles with this set up. I would like to get it tuned, but I can't afford to spend the money for the directlink key, software, and dyno tuning, and why bother with a Race ECM when it is still wrong. The only decent option I've came up with is a PCIII tuned by a trained dyno tech, but that is still about $500 by the time I pay for the kit and the labor! There really are no good cost effective options. | ||
| Ikeman |
I've always wondered whether it was a cost or technology issue... I understand an auto manufacturer has a lot more product going out the door so the cost can be spread out. I'm assuming that's just not feasible with the relatively low volume that Buell is selling. | ||
| Gowindward |
James, You may be riding one of these and not even know it.  | ||
| Glitch |
Can I assume it didn't have a race ECM? It did not. It was all stock except for intake and exhaust. I'm not sure but I believe it had the snorkel removed. any idea how many miles? Less than 20,000, more than 10,000 is all I recall. Looks more to me like a serious detonation problem and/or a valve collision with the piston dome? Don't know about the detonation, but, when running lean you can cause it, because of the extra heat of running lean. The valve was stuck, and did hit the piston. apologies. No sweat, no need for apologies. It's a message board, the only time I really get out of joint is when name calling, flaming, and the like. I did feel a little like you were questioning my honesty, but hey! It's the internet! All information coming from the diagnostics came from BMC, the engine pictures, and the engine did come from a friend of mine. I have an open airbox, K&N and a Jardine on my 12R. At the very least, get the PCIII. You can get it to run a little rich on your own, you can also get a map from someone that has the same or similar set up. Your engine could end up like that one. | ||
| Diablobrian |
when you figure that typical EPA mandated fueling is lean to begin with I can't see making any changes to the intake or exhaust without making a change to the fueling. I know some have done it, but that doesn't make it safe, or a risk I'd take. | ||
| Midknyte |
as long as we're talking about this... it's been conventional advice here that a K&N Filter + de-snorkle was ok with the stock ECM. ECM needing to be changed if you took the next step of changing the exhaust (race can/drummer/ et'all). have we changed our collective mind on this? | ||
| Diablobrian |
I don't think just a filter change to a K&N or similar would be a problem. Beyond that I'd start having reservations, but that's just me. | ||
| Luckydevil |
Midknyte, You have hit upon the point of my initial reason for posting.It is important to find out by testing, not by changing our collective minds based upon anecdotal information. For example, the state of the piston in the pictures explains one set of modifications/circumstances. it would be dumb to claim that this was true of a different set of circumstances, right? It leaves me wanting to know more. Diablorian yes lean is clean. the companies do start with tight tolerances. The Buell O2 feedback system can change the whole fuel map to compensate. (for altitude, etc.) But it cannot get rid of rich or lean spots in the RPM band created by the interaction of exhaust and/or intake modifications. (All of this was explained to me by AL in another post, so i am taking that much on faith until i can see for myself) No one knows the location or extent of these rich and lean spots are without a record of the O2 sensor output. You are right. It is a risk, especially if we are just taking a guess. If the airbox creates a flat rise in air intake, then the O2sensor/ECm may be able to compensate. but we don't know... because we have not tested it. Everyone, i'm not rabid about this or anything. i am just interested in getting some folks together to see what the facts are in differing circumstances. What about a stock ecm and stock intake and Hi-po muffler? What about a Stock ECM and Stock Muffler and an Air Box Kit? What about a Race ecm and AirBox Kit, with a stock muffler? And what if our expectations are wrong... what if the air box kit alone kills engines more readily than a muffler alone? If someone has done this before, show me some charts. Anybody in the rockies area want to try some of this stuff out. I can do the begging to get some free dyno time. I can be very persistent. (NO! Rob say it aint so! ) | ||
| Skeeter_xb |
15,000 miles with the stock ecm and the original Drummer. No problems | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I am not too sure the "Shoot Out" raised any questions we did not understand at all. ... Any change + or - in Volumetric Efficiency needs a change in the fuel tables. Al has tried to explain this in several post. In "Closed Loop" these bikes want to run with a A/F at 14.7:1. If anything changes the VE the ECM will try and correct it back to 14.7 and then remember what it had to do (Add or Remove) fuel and drive the Adaptive Fuel Value or AFV up or down accordingly. But in doing that the bike can get so lean it will not run well and so rich it will foul plugs. The damage in the picture can very easily be caused by a few lean cells in when the bike is running in those cells. Move the throttle one way or the other and it could get better or worse. That's why we believe the Direct Link Tuning can almost always help. ... Terry | ||
| Midknyte |
Well, the ultimate truth is that the answer to my question is right under my own nose. I hereby submit hard visual evidence to the hive mind... Front plug after 5000 miles in my 9R with: 12 airbox, K&N Filter, de-snorkle, stock exhaust I do not believe I am in any danger, but your are encouraged to edumacate me otherwise if I am wrong.           |
