| Author | Message | ||
     Lost_in_ohio |
Well I was lucky enough to find a race muffler. I really don't need more HP just a louder pipe. I am not gonna change to the k&n filter or race ecm yet.......I know I cannot change to the k&n air filter with out the ecm. Is there anything funny about removing the stock pipe and replacing it without replacing the ecm? What about the solinoid? OH duh....it is on an 06 XB12Ss | ||
| 99buellx1 |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/206149.html?1150403731 | ||
| Diablobrian |
I really cannot recommend strongly enough that you install a race ecm with the race pipe. The EPA mandates that motors run in a LEAN condition from the factory. If you make it run any leaner by making it flow more volume you are flirting with disaster. This is a corner that should not be cut. | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
well then....guess I need a race ecm.....anyone have one? | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
You might want to call Al and get a stock one re-mapped since the 12 race ecm's seem to be on back order..........Charlie | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
I guess I was under the impression that you could not remap the ecms. who is Al? | ||
| Buckinfuell |
Diablo, Isn't it true that if all you do is modify the exhaust, there will be no significant change to the overall fuel-to-air ratio? It is only when you modify both the intake with the exhaust that you increase the overall air flow through the engine. Please correct me if I am wrong... Ray | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
I know of a couple of others that ran the stock air cleaner and ecm with a drummer exhaust.......now I do not know if they where remapped or not. Honestly the bike is faster than I will ever need.....so I really don't need a race ecm or filter. I just want a little louder pipe. Loud pipes save lives......Especially when commuting high traffic freeways. That is what I am after. Just curious.....what is that going to do to my extended warranty????????? | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Al is the guy that needs to be on your speed dial (American Sport Bike) one of the sponsors on badweb. Go to the sponsor section, it's the right thing to do. Should not effect your warranty unless don't get the right A/F ratio and burn a hole in a piston.You need a richer map for that pipe. If you dont believe it, put it on a dyno and it will tell you....Charlie | ||
| Diablobrian |
If you reduce restriction to flow it doesn't matter which end you do it on. Even in the old days of carbs if you put a yosh pipe on you needed to rejet right? same thing applies here except the factory settings are even leaner now. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Watch Out. ... Isn't it true that if all you do is modify the exhaust, there will be no significant change to the overall fuel-to-air ratio? It is only when you modify both the intake with the exhaust that you increase the overall air flow through the engine. Please correct me if I am wrong.... I Believe you are. Any change + or - in Volumetric Efficiency needs a change in the fuel tables. If you read all the shoot out data you will see several lean spots in the fuel curves, when the stock MAP was used with any aftermarket muffler. ... Remember you can't suck in more that you can blow out and You can't blow what you didn't suck in. ... Terry} | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Buelldyno-guy, I agree with what you say,but I feel it is misleading. The stock air filter is capable of flowing enough air with a change in exhaust sys. to get him into a danger zone( too lean)For performance your 100percent dead on. | ||
| Bikoman |
?? I was under the assumption that this is what the AFV does. I have been running the stock ecu, stock airbox, and a jardine for the last 1500 miles. The bike runs great, no decernable decel popping, etc. I just pulled the plugs for the first time since I installed the Jardine. The plugs are clean with a light tannish color to the bridge, otherwise insulator is white with no deposits. I am happy, does not seem to be running too lean. Picture of what plug looks like I assumed that the AFV had a range of 30%, 15% up and 15% down. I also assumed that when this value is set, the base map is pushed that percentage either way. So, if my AFV has been set at 110, then my base map moves 10% richer across the board when in open loop. Am I correct at this assumption?? John (Message edited by bikoman on June 16, 2006)http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/23.html (Message edited by bikoman on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Luckydevil |
The Shootout test (except for the bone stock baseline tables) were run with airbox modifications. They do show lean conditions, and rich conditions in some cases. These tables only represent wide open throttle, not any other throttle position or set of modifications. Cyclonecharlie Do you have dyno run sheets to show the air/fuel ratio of this combo? I am asking because i have offered to participate in testing these assumptions out. If the stock airbox was not a limiting factor, why change it? It may be that it can flow enough air to cause a lean spot but not be enough to support the performance os a race muffler fully. I am hoping to get some people interested enough in testing all of this, so that we have solid data to backup our advise. If you have some dyno run sheets. i would be love to look over them. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Luckydevil, No, I don't. I would never run that senerio and any sheets I have are after I have made changes thru-out(intake & exhaust) I have to pay top dollar for dyno time.But I always try to verify any major changes on a dyno before any extended riding. Luck can be fickle......Charlie | ||
| Luckydevil |
Cyclonecharlie Yeah, i don't want to have to pay to find out this info either. I don't think you are wrong by the way, i just keep hoping one of the dyno owner will jump in to make some of these thing clearer. Specific combinations of parts and throttle position and RPM can be engine killers. Other very close combinations can be fine. It's kind of like playing in a minefield. With the right gear we can map out the mines. (and not the hard way) | ||
| Opto |
Let's put the question of this thread another way, does anyone on this board actually know anyone (not heard of someone) that has blown up their XB by running a stock ecm with free-flowing pipe with no other changes? | ||
| Tbowdre |
Just got an XB12R: how about this set up? Drummer Exhaust, Direct Link Open Air Box Mod K and N All installed at the same time with TPS reset. I just want more of the same from my Buell seem like a good plan? what am i missing? sorry to highjack this thread todd | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I believe that will be a great combination. ... I hope to have the XB12 Drummer map finished this next week. ... To Otto's question it's not about what you can get away with, but more about what's right. ... The MAPs that Al and I are developing are designed to fuel the bike correctly at all TP and RPM ranges. This takes some work as the open loop areas have a different A/F target than those in closed loop. Now what about slip on mufflers like the Buell Race or Kevin's Drummer. First I think that the shoot out data supports that Buell got it pretty close with their Race Kit. The ECM fueling tables are correct for the VE of that muffler. Kevin is the type of guy who without the aid of a dyno tested and tested and tested his combinations to work with the Stock or Race ECM. Thats not to say we will not get any improvement with DL tuning, because we will. What I believe we will see are some changes to correct some rich conditions and possibly a few spots that are leaner. His systems are designed and can work without ECM tuning, but I think even he is looking forward to seeing what the fuel curves will look like work with some dyno time. ... The last thing I want to talk about is HP and TQ increases and ride-ability. I only get big changes in HP/TQ numbers when the tables are way off. Rich dips in the fuel curve almost always show up in the HP and TQ curves also. Good clean lean fueling tables work best for ride-ability, but only when they also have good transition from open to closed loop and off idle to closed loop. The Buell ECM tries to keep the bike at 14.7:1 in closed loop. In open loop at max power (Street) I like to see 13.5 and a little richer for the track. I work on the transition cells at 13.8 to 14.0:1. ... If we get all the table values correct you should be able to ride your bike and keep the AFV right around 100%. If we are too rich in open loop we will drive it down too lean it will go up. It is designed to correct for minor changes such as temperature and altitude and not to correct for extreme lean conditions caused by exhaust re-verbration. We did not test any pipes such as those and I will not tune any when the pipe all by its self drives the AFV to 145% as there is no point, ... Hope this helps. ... Terry | ||
| Hogs |
I wd. think as Opto, I have done the same before and heard others that have,USED a different muffler only, with all other gear being STOCK with no plms... Not saying this is the best performance by no means, BUT have never heard of anyone blowing up a motor with just a pipe exchange on xb`s and other makes as well... | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
Well it is very clear to me that no one knows for sure. IMHO it just isn't worth the risk. When I originally posted I was under the impression that the race ecm had been discontinued. After some calls and research that doesnt seem to be the case. For 200 bucks I am just gonna go ahead and replace it too cheap insurance in my book. I still have my doubts about the k&n filter. I understand that it flows more, but it also does not clean as well as a quality paper filter. I saw a comparison some where and I just can't find it again. Not to pick a fight....just looking for more info. |
