| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
LOL  . The reason I started my own thread is because I was pretty sure I had an "alternative" view and I didn't want to dirty that one up. Just FYI. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
M1 i think you need to get yourself a girlfriend! | ||
| Norrisperformance |
I will say right off the bat, I’m very very pro Drummer. But I think, as do a lot of other people M1 has valid questions. It does appear you lose about 700 rpms, from 1500 to 2200 rpms with the Micron. I don’t think that’s any big secret, the Micron want run there. Yes, I think the Drummer could have produce a better top number with more tuning, but it still performs better at the bottom were it was designed to excel. It is very easy for Kevin to change the power curve in the Drummer design. With his knowledge in exhaust systems, it’s no problem !! But there’s a trade off, your going to lose that bottom end power. Which I have grown accustom too and love. It’s your choice, if you’d rather have more top end and lose that sweet bottom, just ask ! it’s no problem. Drummer pipes can be changed on the fly because they are not mass produced and are completely manufactured and hand assembled in the U.S.A with great love and care from the little people like me, not some big corporation. LOL Signed Very Pro Drummer!!!!!!!!!!! speeeling edit (Message edited by norrisperformance on June 08, 2006) | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
Don, you know what kills me about my "one" star rating? Whomever did it has no idea I know you personally and has no fricken sense of humor. I know how much of a tech head you are and how you love this shit. I'm more of the where-does-the-gas-go kind of guy. I'll let you go back to your thirst for knowledge!  Carry on.... | ||
| Mikemax |
Can someone clarify something about the low end of the runs? Not being a racer, I am interested in seeing what I can get under 3500RPMs for my $. I see a couple of the plots extend down near 2000 RPMs while some others look like they basically won't pull at all below 3000, it that a correct interpretation off what the severe drop offs to the left are? In that case a Drummer looks like a better pipe for me. But, I rode with a guy from work who has a Buell race pipe on his 12S and it sounded sweet enough to me that I was thinking about buying one, low rumble and not overly loud. The shootout included two pipes, including it, that are out of production, what was the point? If I got hooked from the report, I'd just be frustrated trying to find one. Also what is up with Buell stopping production? It isn't too expensive, makes power and torque, is the 2nd quitest, and looks nice. Oops, "was" and "looked"... | ||
| Al_lighton |
I still think you're making something from nothing. For one thing, the Micron hardly had the nice map that was perfect when we loaded it. It wasn't as far off in the worse places, but it still took a bit of work to get it in the same level of flatness that we put all the rest of them at. The existing map gave us a bit of a head start, probably saved us about 6 pulls. That's it. Most of those 200 pulls you refer to was figuring out how to make Directlink work, not in tuning the micron. Consider the following Micron tuning plots over the same range.  Note the HP numbers. We have a run on both sides of the target AFV. Runs 6&7 are on the rich side of the target AFV, runs 2,3,and 14 are on the lean side, and run 8 is the closest to spot on (in the area shown, it wasn't lower down). Study it. Look at the curve shapes, look at the absolute numbers. Draw your own conclusions. Al | ||
| Norrisperformance |
It appears some pipes runs were started at higher rpms because they did not perform well down low. The Drummer will pull hard from 1500 rpm. As far as race VS street. Me and Marty, Kevin's good friend and new pilot for his XB9 race bike. Went though school and got our WERA provisional race license at roebling rd raceway this past weekend. I didn't have a belly pan installed yet a couldn't pass tech inspection to race but Marty did. Marty placed 7th in wera light and heavy classes. It was the first time he had been on a track bike in eight years. He was turning lap times of 1.22 for that class thats smoking. And he's just getting familiar with the bike. My best lap times were 1.25 and that was a comfortable pace. What I did notice is I used that bottom end tq a lot. I only pressed pass 5000 rpms on the straight. My riding style and Marty's agrees with the Drummer power curve. It is a real treat to pass all the R1s, ZX10s on the outside of a turn. What a blast!!! I love my Buell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Message edited by norrisperformance on June 08, 2006) | ||
| Vaneo1 |
whoa! Stop guys STOP!!!! STOP!!!!!  Please nobodys Buell, or exhaust is the best. Just read the results as they are and go for a ride. Why does everyone have to always resort to the childish attitude "oh mines better?" thats why after market parts are such a great industry because of that very mentality that buys into it not for performance but for status. Now, who ever tries to twist my words, start with the ad-hominem attacks or anything else, I will not be here to fuel the fire because its pointless. Just like these results since nobody can just WALKAWAY even with tangible proof! | ||
| M1combat |
I have drawn my own conclusions Al. I've never said that the Micron isn't a great pipe (the opposite actually... I said it was stellar). The Drummer SS came within ~.7HP of it while running too rich. I know... That's just at the top and you really never spend ANY time there. In any case... I've made my point. Thank you Al for all of the time and money and effort and heartache and time away from Joanne and time away from American Sport Bike and lost sleep and battery power and squinted eyes and EVERYTHING. Really. I and I'm sure everyone else around here appreciates it a lot. I just wish that the Drummer could have been tuned a little better. It's always nice to see the "little guy" take on a big corporate entity and win. Especially across the board. I wish that this would have happened here for sure. I'm not sore about looking at the numbers at all. Not even about the power curve so much... I'm bothered by the fact that BOTH of the Drummer pipes don't seem tuned quite right. I still don't know exactly what to make of it, but I think that with proper tuning the Drummer SS would have been above the Micron even at the top. "For one thing, the Micron hardly had the nice map that was perfect when we loaded it. " Why? What about that spark map BTW? Were there optimizations done to the spark curves (front and rear) for all maps? Did you not use the spark map optimizations that you came up with for the Micron? If not... Why not? Did you use the stock spark curve on all the pipes? Yeah Brian... I knew you were ribbing me . I assure you... This one makes my head hurt too  . Thanks for pointing out that I do indeed have a thirst for knowledge though . I'm not just "pickin' on the Micron" ... | ||
| M1combat |
Oh BTW Medic ... I just got one about a month ago . She's great . | ||
| Opto |
M1, Just let it rest, the Drummer came within 1% of the corporate finest using stock headers. What more do you want? Go for a ride with the missus FFS. You can go 5% faster just by riding regularly (Message edited by opto on June 09, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
"For one thing, the Micron hardly had the nice map that was perfect when we loaded it. " Why? Because the map was done at sea level, Waterloo was at a different altitude, and the AFV was reset to 100, and we didn't scale the WOT column, we offset it. So we started with something reasonably flat but off target, and then skewed the flatness by offsetting to bring it on target. In retrospect, I should have exported the column to excel, applied a fixed scalar, then reimported. That would have been more like how the AFV corrects the difference. The race ECM spark map was used on all the XB12's. Same with the 9, except the front cylinder had an 03 XB9 race ECM spark map, and the rear had an 05 race ECM spark map, due to a cut/paste error I made. But they all used the same map, and a test on the Micron showed that it didn't make a huge difference either way. | ||
| Kurosawa |
M1combat, when I got the report, I read the PDF first and found the methodology in dealing with the expected as well as the unplanned to be completely understandable and satisfying. Agreeing that the method is valid is the same thing for me as accepting the results as valid. Only then do I sit down to examine and digest the results. I'm not saying everyone should approach a set of data in the same way, but it sure saves me a lot of effort and grief. | ||
| Blake |
Anything between 13:1 and 14:1 A/F is going to run well at WOT and high revs based on lots of results I've seen. Don, I don't think it's fair or technically valid what you seem to be implying. Simply take a look at the Drummer plots you put up on the previous page. In the peak HP rev range, the A/F ratio varies significantly from around 12.5 to 13.5. Coinciding to that variance in A/F ratio, the peak HP varies a maximum of 0.55 SAE RWHP and peak Torque varies by 0.1 FT-LB. That is insignificant! However, the Drummer A/F ratios at peak HP in the comparison plot you show are up around 13.0. That is a very good A/F ratio for peak power based upon what I've seen over the years. My own bike runs at around 12.5:1 for the track. What is the A/F ratio for the micron peak torque curve at the peak torque rpm? Answer: it is 13.3. What is the A/F ratio for the SS Drummer peak torque at the peak torque rpm? Answer: 13.25. There is no there, there. It is a non-issue. The tesing looks fair to me. Between 2,000 and 4,500 rpm, the SS Drummer excels. You are in my opinion splitting hairs and worrying about a variance of 0.5%, which in dyno testing is negligible. (Message edited by Blake on June 09, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
I'm really not looking at peak numbers though... I'm looking at the fact that both Drummers seem to have roughly the same A/F curve and the race and Micron seem to have a different one. Why do both the race and Micron do exceptionally well on the top (with the Drummer VERY close), and the A/F values look to be hurting the power in the ENTIRE range where the Drummer is lower than the Micron? I realize it wouldn't make a "huge" difference... but EVERYTHING counts on the track. You can not leave ANYTHING on the table (including reliability, even if that means trading a little HP for it (like running a map that's a little more rich)). IMO it's just weird. 0.5%? Just for the record... It looks to me like the Micron could have been tuned a bit better as well and I would rather be running a little rich on the track than a little lean. Especialy in that RPM range. So Al... The Spark map was exactly the same for all tests? No monkeying with it at all for any of the tests (on the 12... I haven't even really looked at the results for the 9...)? So anyway... Here's my take on it... I like the Drummer for the Street. It makes great low end power. It sounds good IMO (but not anywhere NEAR as good as a Force pipe, but that's pretty subjective and IMO nothing else does either...). It pulls from 1500 RPM. I don't do that very often but when I want to, I want to be able to... It makes good power in the middle and really... even when I'm having fun in my favorite canyon I don't go much abouve about 4500. Probably because I have so much useable range below that. With my Force pipe I was always running about 3500-5600... For a track... (Flame suit on)... I like the Drummer... I know... I know... You're thinking I'm a fanboi . That's not the case. It makes great power down low... That's always good. I think the middle can be made better. I would probably run a map that was a bit rich up top anyway, and it seems to make great power up top even when rich. This will help with cylinder, ring, piston, valve, etc longevity... A little rich is better than lean on the track. You must first finish to finish first. In any case... Because it makes such good power on the ebottom I can sacrifice some and ask Kevin to make me a custom pipe that makes more in the upper 3K RPM range. Works for me. I'm not saying that the Micron will kill an engine for sure... Don't get me wrong... But if I can make just as much power and be a little more rich (more rich than what would make max power IMO)... That's more reliable  . Thank you for reading . Any racers have any thoughts? | ||
| Bubabuell |
Jesus man. Enough already. | ||
| Stealthxb |
Any racers have any thoughts? Here are a few:  Micron equipped 2005 Formula USA Pro Thunder National Championship Buell  | ||
| Tpoppa |
 | ||
| Norrisperformance |
MonGoose on the loose !!! Snakes beware!!!! Stay Tuned !!! Testing 1 2 3 4 You asked, so it's on the way !!! | ||
| M1combat |
Kick ass... I'm assuming it'll be CF... | ||
| Norrisperformance |
CF, sounds like a great idea to me ! Kevin believes the MonGoose will not have to sacrifice to much of the bottom that the SS already packs. But will produce top numbers that will eat snakes !! Prototype parts have already been made. | ||
| M1combat |
Neat... And if we can get a good DL tuned Drummer SS Vs. Drummer Mongoose comparison, it won't be too hard to somewhat compare it to the shootout results... Using the SS as an offset of sorts... | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Don, we had the same idea for testing. I just started the MonGoose thread. | ||
| Brucelee |
No good deed goes unpunished! | ||
| Mr_cuell |
M1 - as for leaving nothing when racing, that doesn't apply to guys like you and me. For the top guys they can utilize every 10th. Guys like me, and I would bet everything I have that for you as well, as I have never seen you on TV, are not good enough to extract the final .5% to any measurable effect. Our braking markers are too far out, our ability to trail brake, our inability to back it in consistently are far bigger chokepoints on our lap times. I have met a fair bit of club racers, and the ones I hung with did not major on the minors like the diff in two pipes. So long as you have a decent one, skill is worth way more speed than the pipe. It isn't worth burning calories on dynoing both to see which is which, certainly not in the name of racing. Guys like you and I are also too inconsistent to think that this pipe matters much over that one. If you really want to think like a racer then don't sweat it. Spend your energy on thinking about how to stay off the brakes and get on the gas earlier. Learn to be more flexible in line choice to accelerate passing. That .5% stuff on a pipe is for spreadsheet racers - | ||
| Curtyd |
"That .5% stuff on a pipe is for spreadsheet racers " Ain't that the truth, "spreadsheet racers", I'll have to hold onto that one. | ||
| Blake |
"Why do both the race and Micron do exceptionally well on the top (with the Drummer VERY close), and the A/F values look to be hurting the power in the ENTIRE range where the Drummer is lower than the Micron?" They don't. I see the exact opposite. No one pipe is going to do it all. The shaped headers of the Micron provide a significant advantage. The race pipe is purpose built to excell at the upper rpm range. No one pipe can do it all. Specially designed performance headers can make a significant impact on performance. Let it go. | ||
| Bartimus |
My head hurts !!! | ||
| M1combat |
You make a great point Mr.Cuell... I still feel one needs to attempt to make the bike they're riding as good as possible though... Whether we can actually use it or not. Spending money in the right areas is certainly a key factor... another good point. | ||
| Mr_cuell |
I just think motor is further down on the list than a new racer might think. While this list is subjective and debate-able, assuming you have good leathers/helmet/etc, first is good instruction, second is seat time, third is good rubber, fourth is good suspension, fifth is good brakes, and I would put motor somewhere down around 6th. If you are relatively new, spending money in the right areas is a key factor, its just that so long as your motor is "in the mix" so to speak, it is not a key factor. |
