| Author | Message | ||
     Brucelee |
I was thinking about this today. It is fairly commonplace for car makers to put turbos on smaller engines to beef up the output while not increasing displacement or weight to any great degree. I remember I had a Chrysler 4 banger yrs back with a turbo that kind of hauled for its displacement (like 122 ci I think). Anyway, if Buell is committed to the air cooled Vtwin, is a Turbo realistic and if not, why not? Obviously, I am NOT an auto engineer and am looking of you more sophisticated engine guys to chime in. Remember, I am looking at this as a street legal production move, not the Hillbilly-Motors effort. What am I not seeing? Thanks. Hope this thread is fun. | ||
| M1combat |
I think the HBM effort is a FAR better solution than a turbo. I think the rotrex charger is the correct idea, and now that we have a way to truly play with the fuel tables, I think we'll see that setup finished and available. | ||
| Hogs |
I was always under the understanding from the old school sort of saying ... that turbos are no good for the VTwin, Belt driven super chargers the way to go. Anyone ever hear of Pete Hill? Top Fueler HD..??? | ||
| Brucelee |
M1-where can I find out more about your post, ie the Rotrex charger option? Thanks (Message edited by brucelee on May 26, 2006) | ||
| Garp |
Honda bolted a Turbo on a Twin to make the CX500 and 650 Turbos, so it can be done, but the uneven power pulses make it tougher. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Well, the new ss/uly chassis loses the air pass-through in the frame. On the older frame it is entirely possible, newer turbo/super-chargers are self contained and do not burn the motor oil like in the old days. Turbo's gained a nasty reputation because people wouldn't change their oil as often as they should and/or the turbo's oil pump would go out. I would love to see a vane type supercharger on ceramic bearings on a Buell. I don't know if epa mandated fuel curves would be healthy for the motor, but that could be quickly remedied. Cost is probably the biggest hold-up. As I recall there was an attempt at a factory turbo X1. Not sure why it didn't happen. I'd rather sweat than bleed, wouldn't you? White is definitely the FASTEST color Buell. | ||
| Buelltroll |
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| 1313 |
   And that's all I'm gonna say... 1313 | ||
| Hogs |
I wd. agree with Garp there.... Supercharged belt/gear driven the only way to fly... And still retain the Exhaust note. | ||
| Dongalonga |
the turbo really ruins the clean look of the buell. if you want more power i suggest more displacement. besides the point of these bikes is handling not straight line. im sure having a turbo hanging of the side bothers Erik slightly!! | ||
| Brucelee |
Do you guys see the RR motor becoming a street motor at some point, ie maybe de-tuned to 135 HP or so. Personally, I think that would be an amazing combo. Torque on the RR is??? Anyone know?? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Wasn't Erik the one behind the factory turbo X1 project? There was a story a little bit back about him riding a turbo X-1 to a Harley corporate event wasn't there? I'd rather sweat than bleed, wouldn't you? White is definitely the FASTEST color Buell. | ||
| M1combat |
Those are turbo's... (well, and a kuryakyn "hyper charger"). I don't think that a turbo is the right idea for a motorcycle unless you're just interested in peak power. Jenn's tried out a rotrex super-charger at one point. I believe it is the "XBK" or something on their sight. The fueling was one of the issues with it as I recall. | ||
| Sakuc |
http://www.bomber.fi/modules.php?name=gallery2&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=2 4689&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 Rotrex on tube framed one, it was modified from HBM XB based Rotrex kit. Should look even cleaner on XB then on tuber, too. | ||
| Dongalonga |
not too bad looking but i would worry about the belt being open like that. im sure a street application would have a cover though. the supercharger "hugs" the motor alot more than the turbo...not to mention is much cleaner looking. my opinion is that a supercharger fits the powerband of the XB moreso than a turbo....the supercharger is only going to add to the low-mid range hp and torque whereas the turbo is going to be more from mid to high end. we wont even get into the heat issues of the turbos. | ||
| Buell920 |
there are many challenges to doing this on a v-twin. the first is the sound the charger makes, we don't have a hood to cover the sound and the EPA has limitations on eng sounds. the second is you generally need to lower the comp. for use of these products. this gives very poor low end torq. hears something to think about though. for the first time ever in HD/BUELL history we have a bike that has the engine hidden for the most part. so if in years to come they change the eng it will hardly noticed. unlike the v-rod that flew like a brick becouse it didn't look loike a HD. with the set up we curently have on the XB if they changed the motor to water and a difrent kind of final drive..... how noticable will it be. will people be able to say " that ant a BUELL"? | ||
| Cmm213 |
I think its a cool setup, and everyone thats saying its all top end is wrong. Turbo tech today is great with so many to choose from, and different options like ball bearing and wheel sizes. I'd be willing to say that, that machine has little or no lag. I would love to hear that bike. and ride it! | ||
| Slaughter |
Since very few people actually USE the power on most bikes, I'd like to come up with a "falsie" turbo kit. Chromed plastic, looks real, installs in minutes. Won't hurt the engine. Gives as much usable performance as graphite buckle protectors or heel guards. | ||
| Nasty73z |
See here: http://www.procharger.com/motorcycle.shtml | ||
| Dongalonga |
i agree that there are turbos available today that spool up much quicker than say 10 years ago. the problem is they are extraordinarily expensive compared to an equivelent supercharger option...not to mention the heat issues and overall cleanliness of a comparable install with a s/c. | ||
| Sakuc |
Rotrex system also has the oilpump and oil circulation separated from the engine oil(s). Also its very efficient. | ||
| Rafartist |
I cant find a price on the Pro-charger? | ||
| Leftcoastal |
What kinda fool would even THINK of messing up a perfectly good Buell with some silly turbocharger? It couldn't possibly work!  AL (sorry - I just HAD to do that! I don't think the factory would even consider turbo-ing the XB units due to the initial costs, and future repair issues) | ||
| Dongalonga |
i am not saying it is a terrible i dea i want to clear that up....i am merely saying i would not do it to my bike as i dont like the "messy" "cluttered" look of turbos. if i was to ad FI to an air-cooled v-twin it would have to be a SC merely for the clen install and symetry of the way it adds power to the already low revving/torquey XB platform. | ||
| Cmm213 |
I think the people that are doing this mod are racing it, the article on it at hillbilly motors has pics of it at the track thats a good place for it. | ||
| Thunderheart69 |
anyone interested in turbo harleys...... look up RB Racing in your browser, they are out of Idaho. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Lots of options for turboing a Buell,newer ball bearing turbos spool very easily,Aerocharger style variable vane type turbos will also take away the old bane of turbos--lag time-- besides most of that was on the old draw through carb type turbo systems.With blow through on carbs and esp with FI all that is a thing of the past. And compared to the Rotrex supercharger set-up turbos are easily cheaper.Superchargers require a mechanical link and thus absorb HP while making it for you where turbos are using energy you were wasting before--it was all going out the exhaust pipe. And the V-twin can easily be turboed,power pulses just come staggered a bit,no big deal.Lots of turboed V-rods out there--look at the Vrod forum--http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=f28d2ba5e1bf4940ddf329ca50e df34c&f=41 and here is a fellow near me that is doing work with the rotrex supercharger http://www.calisuperbikes.com/index.htm | ||
| Firemanjim |
And Erik had an Aerocharged S-1 with his own FI set-up long ago.And Brankin related how Buell had done some initial work on turboed Buells. | ||
| M1combat |
I wouldn't be able to lose the exhaust note... Super Charger is the only option for me. From what I've heard they respond better mid corner too. No guessing about how much power will make it to the tire. As far as robbing HP to make more... I don't get the argument there... | ||
| Chasespeed |
I wouldn't be able to lose the exhaust note... Super Charger is the only option for me. From what I've heard they respond better mid corner too. No guessing about how much power will make it to the tire. As far as robbing HP to make more... I don't get the argument there... Well, first off. Turbo's use the heat, adn velocity of the exhuast to make power.. They respond DIRECTLY proportional to load.. Under a full throttle, and heavy load, you will reach max boast.. but once you get to your desired speed, say 60, and ease off the throtte, teh boost will fall off(with the help of a blow-off valve, but, more on that later), and you will be cruising, under little(i.e. a couple pounds of boost at best), or no boost... They dont just come on and off liek nitrous.. as the heat, ad pulses increase, they spin the impeller, which is directly conected to the compressor, which thus provides the boost. Turbos are much like cams for a consumer, as you can get them for different applications, adn to do different things... a smaller impeller, with a larger compressor, will yeild very little lag, but spool up faster...but, that is more a HOT street set-up, not something you woudl want on a daily rider, plus, its power woudl be rather limited, in its ability to only flow so much exhuast... A larger impeller, with a smaller compressor, will have a bit more lag, but be much more predictable, your C/R wouldnt have to be as low, as boost number will be lower... Its more comlpicated than that, AR numbers and such, directly influence turbo behavior.. as well as cam profiles adn timing.. No, even on a 45* common pin v-twin, you can add reliable streetable, predictable boost via turbo..., and again, its just escaping heat...nothing lost, everything gained... Supercharging, on the other hand, though, it does provide constant positve manifold pressure, requires something to work, POWER from somewhere, in a super charger, its mechanical, on just abuot any car, its driven off the crank.. on bikes, I have seen them driven from the cam side, as well as from teh crank, thourhg the primary liek in teh above link... Anyway, with a supercharger, your power HAS to come from teh motor, its not free...try to spin a blower by hand..either hairdryer, or roots style..aitn gonna be eaasy...now imagine, trying to spin that fast enough, to provide positve displacement at EVERY engine speed...HA.. some applications can rob as much as 40% of the motors intial power to make more power... Now, garb a hold of a turbo, spin the vanes..they will spin VERY freely...so much so, that it only requires moving air, to make power...adn where better to get moving air, then the exhuast??? Another plus of a turbo..MILEAGE adn reliability.... THUS SO It is only making boost when it needs it...thus, under a light cruise, you are running normal fuel numbers... hit it, and it moves alot of air and fuel, thus making more power... making sense? Turbos are a great thing, BUT, they can be a pain to tune(never finished one on a bike) but I have done more than one car..to say the least.. my favorite was my T-Type Buick...anyway... Hope that makes sense to everyone....} Chase F*ck'em if they can't take a joke. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I would think that a turbo kit wth a low amount of boost would be popular for those that live in the high country. You know, not enough boost to bend spacetime but enough boost to simulate sealevel performance? | ||
| Sakuc |
Except with Turbo you have to mess around with oil lines, pressures, scavenging the oil and whatnot. Rotrex is free from those problems since it contains its own lubrication and oil pump in same neat package. | ||
| Chasespeed |
Except with Turbo you have to mess around with oil lines, pressures, scavenging the oil and whatnot. But, I can assure you, its not anywhere near as bad a a cager... teh oil lines are pretty easy to access Chase} Chase F*ck'em if they can't take a joke. | ||
| Sakuc |
Yeah, thats why alot of cars are using Rotrex these days. Easy and simple.  | ||
| Firemanjim |
And the Aerochargers and their new replacements are self contained oil system also,so no oil line.But really, on a Buell,how hard is it?You can get pressurized oil from sender and the oil pump is a scavenge type anyway.Plumb back into oil return line. | ||
| M1combat |
No I understand why they rob power  , I just figure if the end result is more power to the wheel than if it wasn't there... Why use it as a discussion point? I think that if you were on the limit healed over in a tun a supercharger would have the characteristics that would make the power delivery more predictable... And you wouldn't lose the exhaust note... | ||
| U4euh |
I almost bought a Turbo Seca(let me duc down now) back in 88. My father told me that if I bought it home, he would take a sledge hammer out there and bust the motor. He had a friend who had one of the CX500's with Turbo, beautiful bike, but very dangerous in the tight stuff. As Chase said above, the harder you push air through the thing, the more boost you get. So in mid turn, looking through the turn and turning on the gas, the Turbo would seem to come on unpredictably, forcing him to back out, run it off the road, or scrape everything and hope for the best. I know times and technology have changed, but isn't the principle still the same. I wouldn't want something unpredictable in the twisties, I mean that is why I love my Buell, even if I screw up, the bike still knows where to go and forgives me in the process. I'd sure like to ride one to feel the power though! Thank gosh Dad had enough sense to step in where my better judgement failed! | ||
| Diablobrian |
I also think superchargers are more linear and a better option on a street bike. You wouldn't want your turbo to come on boost mid way through a turn as you rolled on the throttle. I saw exactly that happen to a guy on a turbo 'busa on palomar a few years back. His bike ended up being drug back up onto the road by a wrecker. The rider was okay, but only because of his riding gear. Honestly an awful lot of riders don't have the skills to properly corner with their bikes as it is. A turbo charger only complicates things further. These days though the aerocharger would get the nod from me. I might add the racing oil cooler to my bike to supplement the cooling, and lower my CR but that would be it. Drive it off of the end of the crank shaft, and away you go. BDWD......... Biker Dads With Daughters est.2006 defending our sweet little girls from those bad bad boys. You're not one of THEM are you? |
