| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
So.... name one that makes more torque with less displacement. NAME one... Be prepared to answer a few more questions if you can name one. I'll be patiently waiting (and for the record... not holding my breath). | ||
| M1combat |
You're right that there's nothing wrong with a bike that needs to be revved. I agree totally. If I wanted one though, I'd have bought a 916. I prefer the XB12 engine to a 916 (mostly stock on both counts). I prefer the XB12 engine to anything I've ever ridden that had more than two pistons (and the multi's I've ridden were admitedly older ones). The only twins I've ridden are the XB12, an SV650 and a 916. I like the XB12 a lot more than either. That said... I'd buy a 916 if I had the money laying around. In any case... The XB12 engine is every bit as good as any other V-Twin sport bike engine given it's design goals. It achieves everything I was looking for in a motorcycle. Which reminds me... It's a motorcycle, not an engine with wheels. I'm not saying more power is completely useless... It's always fun  . | ||
| Skypephillis |
"Hey....if that engine is so good...why, please tell me, is it still parked on e-bay. Try dangling your Buell motor up there at $500 and see how long it lasts." One could interprate that comment in another light, like the rotax is that good that no one needs one for spare parts and the buell is that bad that you need a spare motor to keep the bike on the road. hence the ease of selling the motor. Also old buell motors are very popular as chopper engines, a watercooled vtwin is not so for obvious reasons. So i think that arguement is a bit weak | ||
| Skypephillis |
And all this talk about erik is god, whats that about? lets not forget with all his backing from HD and all the time and money and support he's had he is still unable to achieve what britton has all from his own backyard. credit where credit is due but hes no britton | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Skypephillis, ya mind telling me where I can purchase a Brittin? Or where my local Brittin dealer is? Brittin was a brilliant man, and a great engineer. But so is Erik Buell IMHO. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Britten was a great engineer, and motorcycle visionary. His business sense was.... less stellar. You're right Erik Buell is not John Britten. Britten only built a grand total of 10 bikes. Britten's bikes were famous for spectacular success, or equally spectacular failure. He also did not have to deal with EPA, DOT, other international regulatory agencies, or even the stricter homologation rules we have in racing today. Don't get me wrong, I admire what Britten was able to accomplish with what he had there in Christchurch N.Z., however he wasn't perfect either. He did build the sexiest pipes on the planet though. He was also a pioneer a lot of technologies that are in common use today. Same could be said of Erik (notice the use of mass centralization recently by the Japanese?) To be Fair Both John Britten and Erik Buell are great engineers and both have made their mark on motorcycle history. (Message edited by diablobrian on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Skypephillis |
"You're right Erik Buell is not John Britten. Britten only built a grand total of 10 bikes." He didn't get much chance to expand given his sudden departure. | ||
| Skypephillis |
"He also did not have to deal with EPA, DOT, other international regulatory agencies, or even the stricter homologation rules we have in racing today" You play with the cards your dealt. All the other manufacturers have the same hurdles and hoops to jump through. In fact the RR has the most flexibility within the rules of any other competing bike. Are you saying that buell could have won daytona when britten did? or beaten britten if they competed at the same time? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Nope, not saying that Erik could have beaten the Britten. That's like saying do you think Mat Mladin is faster than Mike Hailwood? There is no real basis for direct comparison. At the time Erik was working on building a company and refining his manufacturing processes and his product. Erik is an ex-racer, and racing is near and dear to his heart, but he also has a business to run. Britten was making money designing lamps while building bikes on the side. It was not his means of making a living. They approached motorcycling from very different life circumstances. Is the measure of success a Daytona win? or a stable, successful, profitable business before taking it racing? What if we don't have to choose soon?  John Britten Died way too young. There are too many "what if's" left on the table. It sucks and it's even sadder that his bikes are now collectors item's that in all likelihood will never turn a wheel in anger again. I have been privileged enough to see 3 different Brittens up close and personal. At Barber, At Art of the Motorcycle in Vegas and AotM in Memphis. (yes, different Brittens at each display) They are amazing, but my Buell is art in it's own right There were also Buell's at each of the above mentioned displays, but I get to RIDE the Buell. Come on now what's with all the bitterness on every thread? | ||
| Skypephillis |
Come on now what's with all the bitterness on every thread? no bitterness just vigorous and passionate debate. | ||
| Buellin_ri |
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| G234146 |
"no bitterness just vigorous and passionate debate."  | ||
| Diablobrian |
Fair enough, it's just coming across as negativity. That's one of the problems with web based discussion, it is so easy to have misunderstandings based on lack of inflection and tone. I enjoy verbal sparring. (obviously) | ||
| Skypephillis |
I enjoy verbal sparring. i can tell, and your very good at it  makes for more interesting conversation when everyone has a different view. im always happy to be convinced im wrong which is usually 9.9 times out of 10  | ||
| Rocketman |
like the rotax is that good that no one needs one for spare parts That I can bare witness to. I can't remember the last time I sold a Saab engine, they're that reliable. Rocket | ||
| Kaudette |
only the twins in roadster format... Buell XB12 84ftlb@6000 103HP@6800 Aprilla Tuono 74ftlb@8750 133HP@9500 Ducati Monster 1000ds 70ftlb@6000 95HP@8000 1000s4r 76ftlb@7500 130HP@9000 KTM Duke II 73ftlb@7000 120HP@9000 BMW R1200S 86ftlb@6800 122HP@8250 Moto Morini 89ftlb@6500 140HP@8500 Suzuki SV1000 74ftlb@7000 116HP@8500 Guzzi 1100 70ftlb@6000 91HP@7800 and for the Brutale enthusiasts... Brutale 910 71ftlb@7900 136HP@11000 there you go... | ||
| Court |
>>>>> he is still unable to achieve what britton has all from his own backyard. By the way, and I'm not up for arguing it. but that's an incredibly inaccurate statement. I am working on a Buell project at the moment and the phase I am currently in had given me the pleasure of digging deep into the backgrounds of a couple motorcycle pioneers, including John Britten. I have met and had dinner with John's widow and have some small degree of insight. There are tremendous similarities between Erik Buell and John Britten. There are tremendous DIFFERENCES between Erik Buell and John Britten. There is no comparison between what the two have accomplished. That statment detracts from neither, both are geniuses in their own way. Court | ||
| Cataract2 |
Man, looking at those numbers with the Buell's. The XB12 just need about 1000 more revs and it will roar with power like the others... So close.... | ||
| Kaudette |
... and yet so far away.... those 1000 rpm and extra 20+ ponies are what would make the motor "great".... that's about it really - an 800 rpm powerband is about as bad and narrow as my old 86 YZ 125... every time you have the bike on pipe you're just a hair from banging the limiter and having to shift. Give me 2000 rpm of powerband and another 500-700 of over-run (like the majority of engines above) and I'm set. But that's just me... | ||
| Spike |
It depends on the intended purpose of the engine. For a street bike, making high revs necessary is a bad thing. On the track the lack of low end is fine, you rarely get into the low end. On the street you're constantly using the power available from idle and upward. On the street low end grunt is a huge asset, so necessitating high RPM should be considered wrong. I'd like to have more RPM available than the XB12 offers, but I don't want to sacrifice low end to get it. What engine fits that description? Also, you claimed there are plenty of engines that make more torque than the Buell with less than 1200cc. You've yet to name any, but Kaudette provided us with a list of torquey twins. Of the bikes he listed, only two out-torque the Buell, both needed 1200cc to do it, and neither does it at a lower RPM. It would be nice to see more horsepower from the Buell motor, but even with the oldest architecture it's not the least powerful on the list. When you consider that the XB12 motor gets the best fuel mileage of those on the list and is probably the only one that doesn't require valve adjustments, the Buell motor looks pretty good. | ||
| Kaudette |
If you go back to my original post, I agreed that the Buell motor is a good street motor - it is. Having said that I've ridden a few of those other twins mentioned above and have to say that although the torque is higher up, and maybe off some overall, there is much more punch and useable powerband to get the most out of those motors compared to the Buell. 90% of the time this doesn't matter in the least because you're not wailing on the machinery, but in those instances where you do, the Buell plant lacks the top end, the wide powerband, and the very important overrun. That doesn't mean I think it's crap - I really like the XB & the motor, but to content today that out of the crate it's in the big league of great motors is debatable - ergo this thread I guess... | ||
| Spike |
In this post you said calling the Buell motor good is heresy. Which is it?
That I'm in agreement with. The lack of overrev on the XB12 motor never bothers me on the street, but on the track there are places where gets in the way. On the track the XB12 motor is outclassed. However, the XB was intended as a street bike, and my street miles outnumber my track miles by about 200:1, so it's unfair to say that the XB motor isn't good at doing its job. | ||
| Buellmonkey |
Having finally come full circle with the "available power band" of the Buell, and the fact that the Buell was NOT engineered to be a race bike or that is should be compared to one, has anyone considered that it's probably better to have a motorcycle that uses ALL of its available power band than not? I have R1s and GSXRs fly by me all of the time, probably the young studly crowd that has to race in traffic to prove how fast they can go. Essentially, the Jap and Italian bikes are DETUNED race bikes. Right? So, what good does it do to have a bike that, unless you go to the track to race it, you are basically UNDERUSING the motorcycle if you only drive to work. To use an obtuse example, I often see the fabulously wealth elite of Beverly Hills cruising Rodeo drive in a Lamborghini. The obvious point would be it's an ugly and ostentatious example of the tacky wealthy. More to the point, why would you have a $300,000 car that's HOWLING in second gear going 25mph? It's a racing car now made available as a status symbol. Unless the owner decides to test its muscle, there's nowhere in any public road he'll be able to go 200+ miles an hour. It's been discussed on this forum the merits/pitfalls of racing on public streets so I'm not beating a dead horse. With that said, my comments are not detrimental to any motorcycle; I'd love to have a shiny new Italian bike, but I use my Buell to commute at speeds between 35-75mph. I don't think that would tax a Ducati, Aprilia, MV Agusta, et. al. Meaning, if I don't race it, I wouldn't be riding the motorcycle to its potential. The Buell on the hand delivers its intended power band. It's not a racing bike at the moment; like all of us hope, it might be one day. These discussions, though passionate, seem like a lot of chest beating. The Buell is great at what it was designed to do. End of point. | ||
| Cataract2 |
^ Bragging rights most likely. Compensation. Who knows. I learned after my last mishap that trying to prove something only causes you pain. That's why I slowed down. | ||
| Kaudette |
Spike - perhaps I was a bit convoluted in my articulation there but what I said was: I find it funny that some consider it heresey if I called the XB lump "good", not great. That was the essence of my point of view - then the ensuing - no it's "great" crowd flamed away. No harm done. | ||
| Spike |
That makes sense now that I've read it a couple times, I certainly didn't see it that way the first few times I read it. Mea culpa.  | ||
| Skypephillis |
>>>>> he is still unable to achieve what britton has all from his own backyard. By the way, and I'm not up for arguing it. but that's an incredibly inaccurate statement. Whats inaccurate about that statement? John Britton built a bike at his home and won daytona. Erik buell built a bike with the backing of the mighty HD empire and has not won daytona. Your not making sense but i notice a lot that you love telling people that there statements are always "inaccurate" when most of the time its you that are wrong. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Britten did not win the Daytona 200. He did not even attempt it. The Britten won the BOTT race, this is not the same level of racing as the 200. Even now that it is an FX race. Britten did not have to contend with HRC or Yamaha factory teams. By the same standards The RR did win a similar level event at Daytona this year. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25166 Even beat a semi-works Ducati 999r to win. | ||
| Thepup |
"So.... name one that makes more torque with less displacement. NAME one... Be prepared to answer a few more questions if you can name one. I'll be patiently waiting (and for the record... not holding my breath)" M-1,I'll name more than 1 Buell XB12 77.5 CBR 1100 83.7 Kaw ZX10R 80 Kaw ZX12R 91 Kaw ZRX1200 79.6 Moto Guzzi V-11 78.2 Suz. GSXR 1000 78 Is that good enough for you M-1? Those numbers are from Sportrider. (Message edited by thepup on April 27, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
Impressive list Thepup, However, the full quote was: "What other air-cooled engine makes this much power? What other engine makes this much power while still getting ~50mpg? What engine makes this much torque with 1200cc? What other engine makes this much power and requires zero valve adjustments?" I think the Guzzi comes the closest in that list. I'm not sure about valve adjustments on it. |
