| Author | Message | ||
     Bikin2222 |
"Quit trying to put words into someone's mouth. He never said that." "If you are talking about the Buell frame I would disagree, at least with the tube frames." I rest my case! | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
Warp2 posted this pic on the AZ stormfronts a few weeks back. I guess a member of an Aprilia forum had photoshopped just what is being speculated here...what if a Rotax mill could be shoe horned into an XB. It might look something like this:  When you figure the average Kawasaki, or Suzuki makes over 180 HP with less than 1000 cc’s it becomes pretty obvious that the reason for the Harley motor is to not over stress the frame! I wish people would quit comparing HP numbers relative to the CC's being used by Buell. Different engine configurations will produce different HP numbers. An air cooled 1000cc v-twin is not comparable to an liquid cooled 1000cc inline 4. Apples and oranges. That being said, I hardly think that the new XB frame wouldn't be up to the task for that much HP. I'd just be scared that the bike would turn into a unicycle! | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"Since you are obviously a very talented engineer with great knowledge of chassis engineering, why dont you please tell us what is the faults of the Buell frame that cause it to be so weak. And I dont want specualtion. I want real data or knowledgeable facts! I for one, am all ears." Well, it may be a little sadistic, but I like "feeding Trolls" and enlightening the delusional! First of all, an “open mind” works a lot better than “all ears”. Secondly, try spending several thousand miles riding & racing OTHER bikes. You’ll be amazed! There’s a whole ‘nother realm of performance out there that most of you are completely oblivious to! I own & ride a Buell and I love it, but don’t try and convince me it’s the Grand Pubah of GP bikes. Quite simply, it’s not! | ||
| Indy_bueller |
When you figure the average Kawasaki, or Suzuki makes over 180 HP with less than 1000 cc’s it becomes pretty obvious that the reason for the Harley motor is to not over stress the frame! That is an EXTREME leap. Did you think, perhaps, the reason for the Harley motor is because BUELL IS OWNED BY HARLEY DAVIDSON? Seriously. Think before you type. The world will be a better place. | ||
| Bikin2222 |
You better be careful of that blasphemy of Saint Erik, here among his disciples! | ||
| Blake |
Folks, Please ignore the troll. Bikin2222 = Bueller69 = Ccemn1 = troll and a liar horribly lacking in integrity. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=630198#POST630198 (Message edited by blake on April 23, 2006) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Thought that was him again. Thanks Blake. Any chance of an ip ban on him? | ||
| Imonabuss |
What a jackass. Really. Whatever bikes he owns (not Buells) must not be very fun because he spends all his time trolling under aliases instead of riding. Anyhow, 5 wins and 15 podiums for Buell this weekend at Road America according to CCS! Yippee, the little company is coming into it's own. BTW, back to the original topic, I heard that Buell and H-D executives have stated that the V-Rod motor was originally initiated by Buell as their engine and that H-D took it over and turned it into a cruiser motor, too large and too heavy. That certainly puts to rest some theories: 1) Erik hates water cooled engines, 2) Buell has no say about what engines go in their bikes, and 3 the V-Rod engine is going into a Buell. Me, I'd like to see a street version of the XBRR motor. Or a water cooled engine if it can be done well. Because a lot of water-cooled twin cylinder bikes are heavy and messy packages. Think they are cool in traffic? Guess again. The hottest bikes for the rider I have ever ridden were all water cooled. Two that jump to mind as exceptionally bad are the RC Honda V four and the BMW K bikes. We're talking ROASTING from radiator heat! | ||
| Court |
>>>Anyhow, 5 wins and 15 podiums for Buell this weekend at Road America according to CCS! Yippee, the little company is coming into it's own. That's good news. >>> but don’t try and convince me it’s the Grand Pubah of GP bikes. Quite simply, it’s not! That's the first accurate thing you have said. Frankly, you simply appear not to bright. You may be a heck of a rider, but you lack the most basic business, and common, sense. 180HP bikes, nor any of the silly stuff like the Bimota (when they are in business) sell particularly well. There are some numbers that hover in around the $10K price and 100HP mark when manufacturing and production efficiencies can be optimized to make bikes that sell. Why, pray tell, do folks buy the less powerful 600's? The Buell "package" is technically exquisite and very marketable. I'm glad you are at least hear. You don't seem to listen well, but at least it's s start....we'll try to help. Court | ||
| Buellshyter |
When Mr. Buell started his company Buell wasn't owned at all by HD, correct? Does anyone know why he chose to go with a HD power plant? In his bio he appears to have a lot of experience with many different brands and designs. | ||
| Crusty |
Me, I'd like to see a street version of the XBRR motor Me too! Tell them to keep the trap door, 'cause splitting the cases to get into the transmission is wrong. Then they could put it in the new S4-T. (If I'm going to dream, I may as well dream BIG) | ||
| Ulendo |
trying to keep things on the original track... I have a 2nd job wrenching on go-karts for a friends business ( dont laugh, - its paying for my CityX) anyway, they use Rotax powerplants: #1 - if I want a ducati ignition, I'll go get a ducati ( check into it - at least some rotax's use ducati CDI ) 2) reliability - if they were, I wouldnt be getting a CityX. I get to wrench on them specifically because they're too picky, and twitchy to let high school kids tear down and rebuild on a regular basis 3) powerful - yup, albeit, briefly. I see folks here with 60,000+ miles on their bikes. the Rotax's sometimes dont last 6 months in a GO CART application!! Not to say the Rotax's are useless, but thats an honest $0.02 worth, from someone who regularly works on rotax's. I've worked on worse, for my own bike, I'd rather have 90-103HP, easy service, a unique keeper of a ride, and reasonably cheap parts when things do need fixing. oh - and just 'cause the trolls like to listen in: like most folks here, I've graduated to Buell AFTER having ridden all those other rides.....as with other items, disposables bikes are also for kids. chris (Message edited by ulendo on April 23, 2006) (Message edited by ulendo on April 23, 2006) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I have no worries what so ever that if Buell chose to purchase Rotax engines to their spec, the XB frame platform would take the frame twisting torque. The better question, of which Court is pressing but the troll seems to think is unimportant is what additional cost would have to be tacked on to the cost of an XB? Would it make the bike any more affordable? Or would we simply see another $15K V-Twin running around? I wouldn't want the bike if it was an LE price range. Oh and BTW, there is a HUGE difference between a '180hp' IL4 and a V-twin. Since the XB platform is based on a V-twin engine, of course an IL4 wouldn't work right, the major points of contact that disperse the stress from the motor to the frame, would totally be in the wrong place, jeez, what were you thinking? | ||
| Davegess |
Erik chose HD for his second engine mostly becasue they would actually well him engines, they would sell him enigines on credit, they needed a BOTT bike to replace Lucifer's Hammer, Vetter would pay him to design a HD powered show bike, Erik thought he could build a Daytona 200 winner around it, He had wanted to do do it while he still worked at Harley, they had the biggest dealer network in the US, he could sell everyone he could build in the first two years, Probably a few more that I didn't think of. | ||
| Court |
>>>Does anyone know why he chose to go with a HD power plant? >>>90-103HP, easy service, a unique keeper of a ride, and reasonably cheap parts when things do need fixing. And in the case of the RR and RS/RSS the engine, at HD, had been through all the pricey testing. As long as he didn't modify it, other than air cleaner and muffler, he avoid the unbearable expense. I ever go looking for a business partner, I'd be okay with the cash richest firm in America who happens to build what I want to build, sits 30 miles up the road, where I have lots of contacts and now the lay of the land and will allow me to pretty much follow my dream......there were other choices. He chose wisely. | ||
| Court |
Hey....if that engine is so good...why, please tell me, is it still parked on e-bay. Try dangling your Buell motor up there at $500 and see how long it lasts.  | ||
| Kaudette |
Funny how much polartiy there is on these boards re. Buell is "God" or 180 HP are God. Doesn't seem to be much leeway in points of view. Hmmmm.... Anyhow, there's certainly much more "to it" than most of us will ever know or really appreciate.... Maybe they can't change the frame to accept a new lump because they've committed to volumes at certain prices with their sub - so no way you make a major design change.... Maybe they want the HD lump to add some continuity to the HD/Buell product line, and not scare people off... Maybe they don't want to introduce a motor design that cannot be supported via the dealer network because of tools, skills, parts, etc, etc... Maybe, maybe, maybe.... There will always be inner working type things the common mortal such as myself will not see and maybe even appreciate. That being said, IF Mr. Buell and co have the leeway to look into another lump and are refusing to do-so based on his dislike of water cooled motors or non-HD design principles, shame on them. That's letting the ego call the shots... There are a ton of really great bikes out there today, and I consider the XB to be among them, but as a customer and owning both a Buell and HD, I've come to the realization that the XB lump is simply a good streetable motor for the road. Good, not great. Now maybe that's enough for the HD crowd, but goodness should never be a target of a great mind and innovator - characteristics many here generously give to Buell and the design teams. Greatness is not necessarily 180 HP or a specific motor design, it is not innovation for the sake of innovation either, and it's appreciation is probably unique to some specific markets or market segments. I understand that. I just say that there are many other plants out there today that do a hell of a lot more for me than the Buell lump, and these I would much prefer in my XB12 chassis. If Buell & Co. can't deliver, so be it, I'll just go elsewhere and take the fond memories of the Buell experience with me. | ||
| Blake |
"Funny how much polartiy there is on these boards re. Buell is "God" or 180 HP are God." Might not be accurate to interprete opposition to the "180 HP are God" type of commentary as indicative of someone who holds to a "Buell is God" mindset. Exaggeration is rarely helpful. The Buell engine is indeed great in some aspects, not so great in others. If you prefer other types of engines, then by all means, please do find one you like and have at it. Choosing instead to come here to a Buell enthusiasts' site and insult folks who do indeed may think the Buell engine is great might be silly. Yes, I found your initial exaggerated characterizations ("Buell is God") of Buell enthusiasts here insulting. | ||
| M1combat |
"If that WERE the case, why on Earth would anyone with a brain, let alone any engineering sense, choose a 90HP motor over any number of 180HP motors??? " WTF? I suppose (to jump into your camp for a moment) that I ought to ASSUME that you can actually ride 180HP. Riiiiiiight... I can promise you that a person can use 180HP on my favorite road for about 500yards out of eleven miles (no, it's not the Dragon). The rest of the time it's all about using your tires and your geometry. 180HP is MUCH more of a hinderance than it is a help where I ride. | ||
| Blake |
Devil's advocate says: Then just keep the revs low and have fun. | ||
| Court |
Ever come to one of these discussions and have someone says..."they are both lame, I want something in the middle" Polarity perhaps, but differing opinions are rarely identical. In fact...THAT'S WHERE THEY GOT THEIR NAME! | ||
| Crusty |
Funny how much polartiy there is on these boards Uh, this is the Bad Weather Bikers; it's a forum for Buell enthusiasts. Am I really expected to whip myself into a frenzy over the new Kumensukmi GSXZCBRRYZF 1400 eight valved four cammed multi balance shafted crotch rocket? The basic philosophy behind that kind of machine runs 180 degrees out from what I find appealing in a motorcycle. I will not apologize for, nor will I diminish any of my enthusiasm for Buells, just because someone else has a faulty sense of appreciation for machinery that has a superior ability to make me enjoy myself. Or, to steal a line from Blazing Saddles, "Blow it out your ass, Howard!" | ||
| Buellmonkey |
We're quoting movie lines? Gooooddy: "Say hello to my little friend..." "Remember when I said I was going to kill you last...I lied." It's not the tool, it's how you use it (and therefore how much fun you derive from it or with it). Sure, let the d*ck jokes follow. I think the original post started as one man wanting to experiment and wedge a different engine into the existing Buell. If he has the money and time, do it. It can only benefit all of us who are either curious with our own (engineering) ideas or just want to laugh at someone else's misfortune (if that's your bent). For all the naysayers who bellow Buell doesn't do this or that, just go out and buy another bike and be happy. | ||
| Rocketman |
The Buell owner in question thinks it's possible to marry someone else's engine with an XB chassis. If that's ever going to happen it would suit my tastes that Mr Buell builds that high horse motor and installs it in his own chassis. This or that way, it is entirely and unequivocally a Buell. Why the fcuk would you want it any other way? If anything it is better to press for a big horse power V twin dohc liquid cooled motor designed and built by Mr Buell as it is he who has the take on how best to save weight / mass / size to suit his chassis hewn from the same ideology. If it suits you to have a Aprilia motor in a streetfighter, buy a Tuono. If it suits you to have an Aprilia motor in a race style bike, buy an RSV Mille. As for putting an Aprilia motor in a naked Buell, that has to be one of the ugliest V twin engines ever built, no matter how good an engine it is. Why do you think Aprilia went to such efforts to hide it? Rocket | ||
| Kaudette |
ok Blake - I think you may have taken me out of context because the intent was a bit of sarcasm that apparently isn't clear, oh well. Maybe not he best example, but at the same time, as a Buell MOTORCYCLE enthusiast board, I simply find it funny how the Buell brand can do no wrong in some's eyes, and in others', can't cut the mustard unless they can find a powerplant that will deliver the "proverbial 180HP". Anyhow, I have to admit I find it funny that most around here dream of 120 rwhp with a 1250 or 1450 kit but to suggest the motor as it is - stock out of the crate is "good" is heresey. what a load of crap... to quote Crusty on improving the Buell FROM YOUR OWN PROFILE: Make a successor to the S3-T, develop 100 RELIABLE RWHP.... to quote monkey: Better engine, easier clutch.... to quote M1: Probably build it for 8.5K RPM's, maybe a 6 speed tranny. And I'd close stating it's a testament to the Buell MOTORCYCLE that there is so much good to the bike that it can make up for the possible shortcomings the "good" lump. Sorry guys but c'mon.. (Message edited by kaudette on April 25, 2006) | ||
| Spike |
It seems to me that the only people who see it that way are the ones like Ccemn1/Bueller69. Disagreeing with a guy who says the XB frame will twist up like a pretzel with 150hp when we've already seen the frame raced with 150hp doesn't mean we think Buell can do no wrong.
Good is a really subjective word. There are certainly things I'd like changed about the current engine, but I don't think that makes it a bad engine. What other air-cooled engine makes this much power? What other engine makes this much power while still getting ~50mpg? What engine makes this much torque with 1200cc? What other engine makes this much power and requires zero valve adjustments? | ||
| Thepup |
Spike,there are plenty of engines that make as much torque with less than 1200cc. | ||
| Spike |
Below 6800rpm? Name them. I'm sure there are a few that get more torque with the same or less displacement at higher rpm, but which of those get 50mpg? Which ones don't need valve adjustments? Tractor jokes aside, the engine is good at what it does. | ||
| Kaudette |
Spike - I agree that the motor is "good" at what it does, hell, even very good out of the crate for street riding... my only comment is that unless they can make it "great", it will hold up the XB - after 3 years in the saddle of an XB, this is my sentiment today - I'm looking for greatness ouf of the starting blocks - not by throwing another $4G out the window to make it that way myself. | ||
| Thepup |
Spike,those other engines don't shut down at 6800 neither.just because you have a problem revving a bike up doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a bike that has to be revved |
