| Author | Message | ||
     Interex2050 |
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Aprilia-2000-APRILIA-MILLE-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ805898 4716QQcategoryZ50434QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem $500 buy-it-now is almost affordable... It would be a very interesting project to try and get that engine in the XB. I think it would be small enough to happily fit into the XB frame not to mention that both the XB and the V990 appears to be dry-sump. The V990 appears to be shorter then the XB engine therefore allowing the engine to sit further back in the frame leaving room for the radiator... The hardest part will be modifying the swingarm to accept the left-hand side chain. And creating a new swingarm mount. Aside from that... Make headers, muffler, wire harness, radiator, air-box, etc... It does not seem out of the question of getting that engine in the XB's wonderful frame... Or am I simply mad? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Pretty extreme as project bikes go. | ||
| Interex2050 |
That is true, but the pay-off would be incredible... The union of great engine and great chassis... Just the thought of creating something that unique, and facing the challenges involved makes me excited. Not to mention that it a lot more mentally stimulating then bolt-on modifications. Makes me wish I had a shop, or at least a garage... | ||
| Exitlandrew |
Dude, If I had the money and a spare XB. I would be trying to do the exact same thing. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes. Another thing I would like to see someone try, is a V-Rod motor in an XB. | ||
| Interex2050 |
I think I figured out an easy way to mount the engine too... One could just make a sub-frame to which the engine bolts to and the sub-frame would bolt to the XB chassis in a similar way that the XB engine attaches...(in other words it would support the swingarm, and also hold the radiator...) I should really try to find someone who would want to invest in this project... Possibly for the summer... (Message edited by interex2050 on April 22, 2006) | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"but the pay-off would be incredible... The union of great engine and great chassis..." To be honest, I really don't think the chassis would be up to task. Yes, it handles great with a 90HP Harley motor, but put some REAL torque & HP like that, and it will probably twist up like a pretzel. | ||
| Interex2050 |
I have a feeling that the chassis should hold up quite well... but then I could be wrong. Not to mention the sub frame would also help reinforce it... | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
There was a mildly amusing thread on this subject some time ago. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/99505.html  | ||
| Court |
>>>>it will probably twist up like a pretzel. If you are talking about the Buell frame I would disagree, at least the tube frames. Years ago, responding to such concerns, Buell actually purchased several bikes, took the frames, put them in presses and did extensive comparison testing to find the most rigid frames. Included were the best of the best from Italy and Japan. Nothing came close to the 1996 Buell frame. Data.....that'll pretty well screw up an internet argument.  The Buell frame is much more rigid than the Rotax motor is powerful. Court P.S. - at the same time, a good friend with Honda, in Torrance, CA, was purchasing a Buell from Bartel's to get the frame and find out "how Buell did it". | ||
| Eexb |
"To be honest, I really don't think the chassis would be up to task. and it will probably twist up like a pretzel." Hmmmmm, isn't this about the same "chassis" that stands up to 150HP on the RR race bike ??? E | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"Nothing came close to the 1996 Buell frame. Data.....that'll pretty well screw up an internet argument. The Buell frame is much more rigid than the Rotax motor is powerful." So you're trying to tell us that Buells actually took a giant step BACKWARDS with the creation of the newer XB’s? I think that Info is as accurate as the proposed knowledge you profess here. I’ve never understood why Erik Buell didn’t follow Bimota’s lead? He came up with very good frame designs, but unlike Bimota, chose to use relatively underpowered motors. When you figure the average Kawasaki, or Suzuki makes over 180 HP with less than 1000 cc’s it becomes pretty obvious that the reason for the Harley motor is to not over stress the frame! If you possess “data”, lets see it? I’d love to see if someone were actually crazy enough to put a high HP engine in a Buell. Personally, I find the high speed handling marginal, even with the 90 HP motor, as several other threads by other people here have attested to! | ||
| Adamcooney |
Erik's plan wasn't to make a 200hp bike. It's got plenty of torque if you ask me and some mods can put it up there more and as well as some sort of forced induction could probably put it in the mid 150's to the wheel. When are you going to need 200hp in a bike anyways, it's more about torque if you ask me, unless you're racing there is no point whatsoever to be doing over 100mph. | ||
| Thepup |
Court,explain to me why Honda would need to reverse engineer a Buell,I guess they are still scared of Buell in FX. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Quit trying to put words into someone's mouth. He never said that. The only thing is that he has no analytical data on the XB frame as he does on a Tube Frame. Court speaks of what he knows, not of what he speculates. (as many here do)  WOW! Look at that pretzel! Since you are obviously a very talented engineer with great knowledge of chassis engineering, why dont you please tell us what is the faults of the Buell frame that cause it to be so weak. And I dont want specualtion. I want real data or knowledgeable facts! I for one, am all ears. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Court,explain to me why Honda would need to reverse engineer a Buell,I guess they are still scared of Buell in FX Honda is scared of nothing, they are very business saavy. One of my good friends is in charge of their R&D in Torrance, CA. Honda, like Buell, ducati and everybody else, buys up competing bikes every year to "snoop around". Buell, at any time has about 9 other competitors bikes, sitting outside the factory. Years ago, and Denise is the only one here who has been around long enough to recall, I got an e-mail from a guy who I notice had bought 3 bikes in the previous month. His note said... "lest you think me independently wealthy or having own the lottery, I am neither. I am the chief engineer for Honda NA and am fascinated with the Buell I just purchased" He and I went on to become very close friends and to call him a legend would be a gross understatement. In fact, we started having an annual event in which we'd take friends riding. It was shortly thereafter he, and Dirk, were killed in a terribly tragic motorcycle incident at Willow. The Buell frame, the tube frame, was spectacularly rigid. Buell pioneered, and still leads the vehicle (that's not JUST motorcycles, but all vehicles) industry in F.E.A. technology. Sure, look the text book up you'd be using if you went to Stanford or M.I.T....author's name look familiar? The XB frame is better yet. Calling the Buell frame a "pretzel" is internet garbage. It, and a number of other motorcycle frames, are exquisite examples of fabulous engineering. Dat's a fack Jack! Anybody recognize this guy?  | ||
| Rafartist |
I still think it would be cool though. You might want to throw an extended swing arm on there though which would ruin the handling Eric had in mind. But imagine the exhaust not, the profile, the LOW temp. between your knees when you pull up to a stop light for an extended stay, just some ideas. | ||
| Anonymous |
22, Yep, the reason for choosing the H-D motor was to not over-stress the frame. ???? How retarded is that comment?! Sure, the chassis that just won best handling of all time, and was spectacular in the infield at Daytona with 150 hp, and has enabled chassis geometry unheard of is weak. Right. And since the 1996 XB chassis was more rigid than the competition of that era (BTW, it is basically the same stiffness as the chassis designed in 1985 which gives you an idea of how far ahead of it's time the basic chassis was), Erik decided to make it's replacement weaker? High speed handling marginal? I don't think so, and anyone who does can't ride or can't set up their bike. An 150 HP XBRR just won the endurance race at Road America , running 160+, with one rider on fgor the whole race. And he was 30 secxonds ahead of second. But he was probably right on the edge of terror dealing with the marginasl handling all the way from 90 to 160. Riiiiigggghhhht. And thepup, facts are Yamaha bought the first XB ever to arrive in California, paying a huge extra fee to the dealer, Bartels. Let's see, and recently their new bike has an underslung muffler, etc. And why do you think Honda threw a fit about the XBRR? They know how well it handles, and were scared at how much power it might have. Well, the power and reliability weren't there, but they are coming. | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh, and 22, you don't understand why Buell didn't follow Bimota's lead? Let's count how many bankruptcies Bimota has been through versus Buell. Or how many bikes produced compared to Buell. Or how many jobs have been created by them compared to Buell. Or the ease of getting Bimota parts compared to Buell. Or even how many races won. I'm sure you have your own set of skills, but I suggest you stay away from business decisions as well as frame engineering. | ||
| Court |
Hey....look at this brake. Shame they couldn't produce it at the risk of IP problems with Buell.....wonder where they put the muffler....Damn...Buell copied EVERYTHING!   | ||
| Buellin_ri |
Interex2050- If you pull off that bike I would envy you for sure!!  | ||
| Diablobrian |
Beautiful pics of the NAS Court. PS... Don't feed the trolls. | ||
| Pupu |
that is one bad ass front setup there court | ||
| Kaudette |
back to the initial topis - a 990 twin lump in the XB chassis - PLEASE for a 2007 release - I'd even be likely to purchase my 3rd... Otherwise I'm lookin elsewhere come next spring. the Aprilla is a 60 or 75° twin? so perhaps this could work well with the underslung muffler... tbd - in any case, I'd much prefer this (OR a 1250+ that could safely rev to 8000 with 110 to 115 rwhp) 6800 is just too early to cut out... That being said, sounds like a project from hell to actually get to work right without some serious experience. Good luck! | ||
| Buellmonkey |
As the saying goes: Know your friends but know your enemies better. Erik Buell is no d****ss. I very much wish he would've had more money & R&D during his initial racing period. All the Italian and Japanese bikes have a long racing history heritage which might give them a slight advantage (in terms of tweaking and improving a product). Plus, Ducati, Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha are all well-funded. For whatever reason, Harley only ventured from flat track to dirt track racing, with a hint of (modern) racing. When Buell stepped in, he made work the most underrated of Harley's line-up (the Sportster engine, which by the way is the longest continuously produced motorcycle in history) and made it sing. He is a brilliant man whom I'm sure knows just what the competition is up to and vice versa. Racing is not only engineering, but R&D, testing, improving, modifying. It ALL trickles down to buyer eventually, meaning us riders. Give the guy some credit and give us all some f****** peace from the badmouthing. | ||
| Interex2050 |
The V990 is a 60 degree, and I have just confirmed that it is indeed a dry-sump system... The one aspect which is seriously tormenting me is the swingarm... The modifications that would need to be done are so extensive that it may be just as easy to fabricate a new one, but then the question of rigidity comes into play. The other downside would be, if the project would actually get rolling, I would owe a lot of pretty pennies... And if it succeeds I would have to sell it to pay off the debts... | ||
| Interex2050 |
There is no doubt that Erik Buell is "no d****ss", it would be lovely to see what he can come up with if he was not hindered by the "harley superiors" and had infinite funds... | ||
| Court |
>>>>if he was not hindered by the "harley superiors" and had infinite funds... Tell me, just give like one or two "for instances" where he is hindered by "his superiors". Even, say a program he proposed that was rejected. I'm eager to know. Also, give us a couple of examples where HD has said "no, we're not footing the bill for that". I know of one, suspect a couple and am eager to hear the source of your concern. P.S. - in the case I know of, I think HD did the right thing. One thing they have brought Buell is a modicum Erik sometimes looses sight of simply due to his passion. Three smart people, with lots of experience, are always better than one. Court | ||
| Interex2050 |
I quite agree with about loosing sight due to passion, but it would be interesting to see the result... as for hindering I can only offer speculation, a poor and unfounded one at that... (yes indeed it was too drastic of a statement) but I will give it a shot... -I have a feeling that Erik would have wanted, at least at one point, to diverge from the sportster based engine... I threw together a sketch of how one could possibly avoid completely mutilating the swingarm...  The setup is in no-way sleek nor efficient, but it would be an easier way of getting the job done, without redesigning the swingarm. I have always wanted to see/discuss the benefits and downsides of having the drive belt/chain starting directly from the swingarm pivot. I suppose to start off... + The chain/belt would not be effected by movement in the suspension - There could be some interesting issues with engine power effecting the operation of the suspension. - Possibility of a weaker swingarm pivot - More points of energy transfer So far the list does not appear too good... | ||
| Bikin2222 |
OK sure! Buells are the fastest, best handling, most reliable motorcycles EVER built! You're all right! I just heard Valentino Rossi is dumping Yamaha to ride for Buell too! Come on guys, at least TRY and keep it real? | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"The Buell frame is much more rigid than the Rotax motor is powerful." If that WERE the case, why on Earth would anyone with a brain, let alone any engineering sense, choose a 90HP motor over any number of 180HP motors??? Buell could have contracted Rotax to build a more sophisticated motor, just like Aprilia did, which is exactly what that pictured Rotax motor is from! That's right, I forgot! It's not all about speed!!!! I'm going back to dial-up modem! |
