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Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 06:57 pm: | 
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Essentially, the Jap and Italian bikes are DETUNED race bikes. Right?
Actually, it's pretty much the other way around.
Rocket |
Thepup
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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Brian,M1 ask for any bike with less displacement that makes more torque. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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Yes he did. I 'm waiting for this one too LOL
Rocket |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 09:45 pm: |
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Brian,M1 ask for any bike with less displacement that makes more torque.
the britten also makes 166hp and from memory over 100ftlb
sure its a full blown race bike but he did say any bike |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 10:51 pm: |
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Fair enough. I'd like to see where he goes with this too then.
I was just trying to keep things on the level.  |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
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The Confederate Hellcat, sure its 2000cc but its cranking out 145lb-ft
and its air cooled |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 06:09 am: |
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>>>>John Britton built a bike at his home and won daytona. - INACCURATE
>>>>>Britten did not win the Daytona 200. - ACCURATE.
>>>>when most of the time its you that are wrong. - INACCURATE.
"most" would infer over 50% of the time. I'll go easy on you...name just once.
Court |
Buell1111
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 09:24 am: |
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"Brian,M1 ask for any bike with less displacement that makes more torque."
Not sure if you're excluding I-4's, but the new GSXR 1000 makes more torque. So does the Aprilia if you're talking V-twins. |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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>>>>John Britton built a bike at his home and won daytona. - accurate (i did not specify the 200)
>>>>>Britten did not win the Daytona 200. - (never specified that he did so therefore im accurate)
>>>>when most of the time its you that are wrong. - once again im 100% ACCURATE.
I'll go easy on you...name just once. (you can please yourself, i mean seriously this is a chat room your free to do what you choose, dont be surprised if im not phased with your rebuttle)
skype |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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Winning "Daytona", not "at Daytona" infers that it is the big race you are talking about.
Kind of like a country winning "the Olympics" versus "at the Olympics"
Know what I mean? |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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quote:M-1,I'll name more than 1
Buell XB12 77.5
CBR 1100 83.7
Kaw ZX10R 80
Kaw ZX12R 91
Kaw ZRX1200 79.6
Moto Guzzi V-11 78.2
Suz. GSXR 1000 78
Is that good enough for you M-1?
Those numbers are from Sportrider.
I know your post was directed at M1, but since I originally posed the question I feel that I should answer.
All of the bikes listed hit peak torque at a higher RPM than the Buell (except the Guzzi), all require valve adjustments, and none get better mileage than the Buell. Adding to that, only two beat the Buell by a significant margin (~5ft-lbs). Clearly, the Buell is holding its own here for torque output.
To get a better picture, I'd like to see more than just the peak numbers, but actual dyno charts displaying power/torque from say 2500-6500rpm.
From Buell1111:
quote:Not sure if you're excluding I-4's, but the new GSXR 1000 makes more torque. So does the Aprilia if you're talking V-twins.
The GSXR does, but by less than a full ft-lb, and not until 8500rpm. The Aprilia does not. Going by sportrider's numbers, the highest torque from any of the Aprilias is 72.4 @ 7250rpm on the '03 Tuono R. As a side note- I thought it was interesting that of the 8 Aprilias that SR has tested, only the '03 Tuono R weighed less than the XB12R. All of the Milles including the '04 RSV-R Factory were heavier. |
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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quote:Essentially, the Jap and Italian bikes are DETUNED race bikes. Right?
Actually, it's pretty much the other way around.
Rocket, can you clarify what you mean by that? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 04:21 pm: |
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Sure I can.
To date there has only ever been one mainstream production bike that was primarily designed as a race bike, then became a road bike, and it wasn't Japanese. Think 916.
Japanese sports bikes are designed as street bikes to sell to the public. Only once to my knowledge have the Japanese detracted from such. That's when Honda produced the V twin SP1 genre, with the sole intention to beat Ducati on the track, which they did. The SP1 genre is the only race bike for the road the Japanese gave us in a mainstream production model. Others, like the Honda RC45, were strict homologation models, far from mainstream production.
So if we take the top production super bikes from the big four Japanese manufacturers, non are detuned for road use. They are in fact just the opposite. The race bikes are tuned versions of the production model, if anything.
Rocket |
Buell1111
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 07:43 pm: |
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"So if we take the top production super bikes from the big four Japanese manufacturers, non are detuned for road use. They are in fact just the opposite. The race bikes are tuned versions of the production model, if anything."
Isn't that an obvious contradiction? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 08:17 pm: |
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The point of my mentioning the Honda SP1 genre, and the RC45, was for the simplest of people to understand why it is not a contradiction.
Some people on the other hand, just like to cause arguments. I'm the champion of that too, so go ahead. I'd be happy to argue this anytime.
Rocket |
Thepup
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 09:19 pm: |
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M1,did you decide to hold your breath. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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Yeah come on M1, play the game.
Hell, I got laughed at recently, so it must be your turn.
Mustn't it?
Rocket |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 12:25 am: |
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quote:
So if we take the top production super bikes from the big four Japanese manufacturers, non are detuned for road use. They are in fact just the opposite. The race bikes are tuned versions of the production model, if anything.
I think at some point we're just verbally splitting hairs, but I think partially the opposite occurs. While it is true that the race bikes are tuned versions of the production model, the existing production models were designed to provide winning race platform. While the bikes are designed to be sold to the public, it seems pretty obvious that the intention of the bikes is to have a competitive race bikes. It's been going on so long it's sort of a chicken/egg scenario. |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 04:54 am: |
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Anyway the rotax is a good motor and capable of beating any other v-twin in the right hands.. isnt that what this thread is really about? |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 05:49 am: |
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>>>Anyway the rotax is a good motor and capable of beating any other v-twin in the right hands.. isnt that what this thread is really about?
Yeah. It just appears, out there in the market place, to be worth less than $500. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 06:14 am: |
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the existing production models were designed to provide winning race platform.
If building a race platform were the most important issue to the production sports bike, wouldn't all Japanese sports bikes be much closer in reality to a Ducati 916 / 999? Consider they are not so, because if they were they simply wouldn't sell as many units as they do in a more practical guise.
Anyway, my original comment was simply this. No production sports bike is detuned for road use. So it is you that is splitting hairs 
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 06:18 am: |
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Anyway the rotax is a good motor and capable of beating any other v-twin in the right hands.. isnt that what this thread is really about?
I'd say it's lost next to any Ducati motor, and if the SP3 hadn't been the last of the line in 2005, it would lose to that motor too.
As for its value in the used market place, like I said earlier, I'd assume it's that reliable there's not much demand for one.
Rocket |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 08:16 am: |
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>>>I'd say it's lost next to any Ducati motor, and if the SP3 hadn't been the last of the line in 2005, it would lose to that motor too.
i said in the right hands on any given day... like say if vale rossi was riding against you and you had a duke and he had the aprilia powered rotax,, you would be a mere memory. |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 09:34 am: |
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quote:
If building a race platform were the most important issue to the production sports bike, wouldn't all Japanese sports bikes be much closer in reality to a Ducati 916 / 999? Consider they are not so, because if they were they simply wouldn't sell as many units as they do in a more practical guise.
Closer in what way? All of the 600s and 1000s from the big 4 have moved closer to being racebikes over the years. They have become increasingly more focused, so much so that some have split into multiple models because the model that is raced has become to unfriendly to the street. Even Honda, known for making practical sportbikes, kept its F4I because the 600RR has become too focused.
While it's true that the existing sportbikes aren't developed as detuned versions of their race partners, the production bikes are developed as race platforms to begin with. The post that started this did use the phrase 'detuned race bikes' but in context the intention was that the modern sportbikes are racebikes, which appears to be true. |
Buellmonkey
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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Yes, it was moi that used the phrase "detuned race bikes" in the context of the thread. Thank you for making that clear. I would like to also mention that racing R&D comes back to the consumer, like the whole slipper clutch post awhile back. Since Buell is now only starting to race, whatever it is they develop for the track will come back in the future models. To me, at least, that's starting up and trickling down, not the other way around. Maybe it's semantics or a poor explanation on my part but that's what I intended. Regardless, I hate to hear, "wow, cool bike, too bad a 10 year old Jap bike could give it a run anyday". Scr*w other engines; my hope is Buell will shame them all.
(Message edited by buellmonkey on April 29, 2006) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 07:35 pm: |
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i said in the right hands on any given day... like say if vale rossi was riding against you and you had a duke and he had the aprilia powered rotax,, you would be a mere memory.
Don't be ridiculous man. If I were on the Aprilia, then Rossi might have a slim chance, if he were on a Ducati.
While it's true that the existing sportbikes aren't developed as detuned versions of their race partners, the production bikes are developed as race platforms to begin with
I'd agree with that almost, but they are not detuned, which was my point! Better in my opinion to say they are developed with racing in mind. But have it your way if it suits you. Me, I'd rather call a Ducati 999R a race bike than a CBR600RR.
You won't find one of these on a 999R
Or these
Or this
Rocket |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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the 999r has brake lights and turn signals |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 07:54 am: |
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It wouldn't be road legal if it had neither. Then it would be a pure race bike, which is the bone of contention in this thread.
Do you know the basic rules of Supersport and Superbike Racing?
Rocket |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 08:04 am: |
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>>>Yeah. It just appears, out there in the market place, to be worth less than $500.
Well if you don't have a bung aprilia to fit it in, what else would you need it for? like i said, they may be that reliable that there is no interest in acquiring one for parts. where the buell motors are popular as chopper engines and as such more intrest and higher prices are fetched.
>>>Do you know the basic rules of Supersport and Superbike Racing?
not only do i not know the rules, guess what? i don't care what the rules are. why? because i will never race in either class. |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 08:07 am: |
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>>>>It wouldn't be road legal if it had neither. Then it would be a pure race bike, which is the bone of contention in this thread.
the middle photo suggests that you are pointing out that the 999R has no tail lights or turn signals but it does |
Skypephillis
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 08:09 am: |
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>>>>Don't be ridiculous man. If I were on the Aprilia, then Rossi might have a slim chance, if he were on a Ducati.
Rocket,
You should give honda a call, they might have a job for you |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:00 am: |
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If building a race platform were the most important issue to the production sports bike, wouldn't all Japanese sports bikes be much closer in reality to a Ducati 916 / 999?
As Spike singled out the CBR600RR as a Japanese production motorcycle essentially built as a race platform, I waged I would agree to a point, but the 999R is in every aspect a race bike with road legal requirements added. That is a necessity to comply with the Supersport and Superbike rules you don't care about.
In my humble opinion, what sets the two machines apart more than anything else where racing is concerned is what you find when you place your cursor over the pic's I posted. I was trying my hardest to be cryptically humorous here. The captions read.......
1. passengers allowed
2. put yer feet up honey
3. lunch box
Now if I were in the market to buy that Japanese racing thoroughbred production cutting edge tool, I'd question what I'd have to throw away to make it a 'real' racer, like the Ducati 999R.
Besides the brake light and indicators, there's a small matter of suspension, which the Honda folk have worked hard no doubt at making my prospective race bike for the road comfortable enough to place my bird on too. And how nice and thoughtful of them to put the seat and foot pegs on for her anyway.
In fact, I need to write a letter of complaint to Ducati, as they haven't even gone as far as to include a seat for my bird. Then there's that race bred Ohlins suspension. My birds fillings would fall out no doubt if she were to climb on back.
Stupid Italian's. Don't they know their priorities in the market place. Women always come before racing. Jeez!!!!
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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You should give honda a call, they might have a job for you
I'd have to let them down I'm afraid. I'm busy developing a slipper clutch for the Buell race team
Rocket |
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