| Author | Message | ||
     Jason2o |
Hi everybody! I am a new badweb cruiser, Although i have been riding my buell since last july. My Setup is, i have a power Pod and the Full race exhaust system on my '03 XB9R, w/race ECM. What is the best route for getting my bike Dyno Tuned? I have heard very little about direct-link can someone elaborate? My bike makes ok power but obviously has some holes in the programming as it goes rich-lean too often.. Jason | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"Direct Link" Is mostly software that enables you to re-program your ECM. It's best not purchased, unless you are an expert mechanic and have access to a Dyno. The layman, or weekend garage mechanic can literally blow up their motor, fooling around. The way to go is; find a dealer, or hot rod bike shop that has a Dyno and Direct Link and have a custom map made. It's a little expensive, but the bike will run better than it ever has! | ||
| Jason2o |
I plan on having the bike dyno-tuned... but i was just wondering about the best way to go about reprogramming the ecu or using something like the techclusion box etc.. I was wondering because i have heard you have to buy a special locked usb key.. Anymore info on that As for blowing up the bike, i know a little about programming engine as i have programmed car/truck engines and even jets(Specific gravity on fuel controls) And this is only my 3rd bike with fuel injection my 06 harley cant be messed with my 03 ninja i didnt need to mess with but this bike has definitely developed some holes in the power delivery.. So what should i expect to pay in Cali. for this service... as i will be calling around tommorow... Also what should i expect to pay for the usb key? Jason (Message edited by jason2o on April 19, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
The USB Key is $249, and you need one to talk to the ECM. The SW with cable is $99, but you don't need that if you are going to have it tuned by someone that already has the SW. Some folks that buy the Key also buy the SW even if they don't plan on tuning, because it lets them reset their own TPS and it's cheaper than buying VDSTS that way. If you have a combination of stuff that is common, there may be a pre-canned map that will work on your bike. We have a few, and more are in work. IF you have a different combination than ones that the map exist for, I'd suggest that you consider taking your Bike to Terry at Vallejo Buell. Vallejo is only about an hour or so west of you, right? Terry can tune your Buell with directlink so that it runs like a top. But tuning and dyno time isn't cheap. IF your bike doesn't match one of the pre-done configurations, you may find it cheaper to get it into one of those configurations and buy a canned map than it is to tune the config you have. Just a thought. If more questions, ping me a American Sport Bike Al See http://www.americansportbike.com/shop/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F5895557&rnd=1846 917&rrc=N&affl=&cip=69.160.135.44&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=9308&cat=&catstr= and http://www.americansportbike.com/shop/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F5895557&rnd=2913 441&rrc=N&affl=&cip=69.160.135.44&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=9309&cat=&catstr=HOME Al | ||
| Jason2o |
Thanks for the info Al, Exactly what i wanted to know... Going to call local and then give vallejo buell a call, I've been there a few times... The local buell/HD (sacramento area) shops are pretty clueless.. Thanks! Jason (Message edited by jason2o on April 20, 2006) (Message edited by jason2o on April 20, 2006) | ||
| Bud |
al, do you have a start map for a 1160 xb9 ? that's gonna save me a lot off time ( don't want to run my engine for 4 hours on the dyno ) prity please  in return you will get a copy off my finised map ( running a expansion sort exhaust @ the moment ) still stock cam's and just light port work perhaps a full micron, hearing good story's about it gr, bud | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Wow Al, I was way off on my thinking when it comes to the directlink. So the software and everything is $350, but the key that is premapped to certain mods is $250. Is that correct? So I could buy only the key for $250 and remap my bike based on it's performance mods? Let me know if I understand how the key works correctly. Does it plug in to the ECM, remap it according to the preset mod map and then you get the TPS reset and I'm on my way? Do you have a key for an 04 12 with a Jardine, K&N and the open airbox convertion? Let me know Al. I appreciate your hard work on this mod a lot! | ||
| 99buellx1 |
They actually work in conjunction. Each bike needs it's own Key, and you plug the key into the computer that is loaded with the DL software and it connects to the bike. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Hey Al, do you have a map for a 1250 xb12 with jardine and open air box? thanks | ||
| Olinxb12r |
I see 99. So if 10 of my friends and I wanted to go in on a directlink we would need to pay for 9 $250 keys and split the additional $100 that it costs for the directlink since it comes with a key of it's own? So it would basically be $260 a piece if 10 of us went in on it and the cost for using a dyno for the people that have mods that are not premapped? | ||
| Topgunbandit |
Brian, I sent you a PM | ||
| Bikin2222 |
Tampa Harley Davidson will do a custom map on an XB using Direct Link and their Dyno for $250. A very good investment. | ||
| Bikin2222 |
"I see 99. So if 10 of my friends and I wanted to go in on a directlink we would need to pay for 9 $250 keys and split the additional $100 that it costs for the directlink since it comes with a key of it's own? So it would basically be $260 a piece if 10 of us went in on it and the cost for using a dyno for the people that have mods that are not premapped?" Unless you are a very good mechanic with access to a Dyno, do not buy a direct link. Find a Dealer, or hot rod bike shop with a dyno and Direct Link. Have THEM create a custom map specifically for your bike. It's the best way to go. Fooling around with fuel/air mixtures by a novice is the quickest way to blow up your bike. Down loaded custom maps are marginal at best. The whole purpose of the map is to have a perfect mixture thru the entire RPM range for YOUR bike. | ||
| Al_lighton |
"So if 10 of my friends and I wanted to go in on a directlink we would need to pay for 9 $250 keys and split the additional $100 that it costs for the directlink since it comes with a key of it's own?" True. 9*249 + 1*$348 = $258.9 And If you did a bulk buy like that, I can beat those prices. But what John wrote is also true. Mapping without a wideband sensor at minimum, and a dyno preferred, is folly. At best, you'll get a bike that isn't the best it can be, and at worst, you can blow it up. If all you ever did was ADD fuel, AND your bike wasn't too far off to begin with, you probably couldn't do more harm than fouling some plugs. But to get a bike running right, there is often times that you remove fuel. With about 144 fueling cells in the front cylinder fuel map alone, it is not an easy thing to do to figure out exactly which cell you need to tweak without the proper feedback. And due to the interactive nature of the closed loop and open loop Buell DDFI ECM, there are some tricks to tuning a Buell ECM that aren't immediately apparent. When I sell the SW, I include a tuning guide that I wrote with Terry's help to guide one on those techniques. But the instructions are still fundamentally based on having the feedback that one gets from a wideband O2 sensor with the bike on a dyno. It IS possible to tune the bike with a wideband O2 system alone, by driving the bike and getting time correlated Throttle position, RPM, and A/F data. If your group bought one of those O2 dataloggers, you could do it without the dyno. It's not an efficient method, but if one did not have access to a dyno, it could work. I have not done it that way myself, however. The closed loop domain tuning would be most tedious this way. You would definitely want to modify the headers for an O2 bung on each cylinders header. The copper pipe method won't work for a road tuning method, as a gas sampling pump is needed for that to work right. Al | ||
| Olinxb12r |
We were planning to take our bikes down to an HD shop that has a dyno. It's about 45 miles away, but they're a good shop that will take care of us. So, even with the premapped key we will still need to get each bike on the dyno to be tweaked? That makes sense considering different altitiudes, levels of humidy and overall quirks that each bike may have. I've spoken with some of the guys around here, and everyone seems to be interested. We just need to start pooling the money and speaking to the HD shop about a dyno day for 10 bikes. Thanks guys! (Message edited by Olinxb12r on April 21, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
That's good. Dyno tuning is the way to go. Some additional info: 1) "premapped key"- is a misnomer. The keys don't hold a map, they are merely a security mechanism that allows the SW to communicate to a single ECM. There isn't any map info inside of them, only some info about the ECM the key is locked to. The SW needs to see the key in the USB port to operate. When first inserted, the key is blank. Upon first map read, the key becomes locked to that particular ECM and won't work with another. 2)The first time someone tunes a bike with DirectLink, it'll take the better part of a day. After a bike has been tuned and the tuner gets a feel for how much movement in the A/F curve a single click of fuel makes at the various RPM/throttle positions, that speeds up a bit. But there is a lot to it, and it realistically takes about 1/2-1 hour to get the bike set up for tuning (i.e., remove muffler, run copper tubing up through the muffler into the front and rear header pipe, remount muffler) and about 3-4 hours on the dyno, depending upon how much of a perfectionist you are. You have to tune the high throttle and cruise (i.e., open loop and closed loop domain) a little differently, which is discussed in depth in my tuning guide. I write this because it sounds like you may not be realistically estimating the time required to do that mapping. You won't do 10 bikes in a day unless they are only in 2 configurations, and you are only mapping two bikes and then just loading those 2 maps into the other 8 bikes. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
missed a couple questions up there, sorry. James, The key/SW pricing is stated above. The mapping fees vary. I'm charging $100 for pre-mapped ECMs, I think DaveS is doing $150. Terry does the maps I sell on the Vallejo Dyno. The biggest problem is getting bikes in the proper configuration. I'm bringing my XB9 up there in mid May so we can bang out a few more XB9 maps,and he recently got a few of the XB12 maps completed. I'm just waiting for those dyno plots before I officially announce their availability here. A custom map can vary wildly in price, depending upon the configuration. If it is a "common" configuration, the charge to the customer will be a fraction of the actual dyno time because the map cost can be amortized over other pre-mapped ECM sales. But if it is a "custom" configuration with little to no anticipated amortization, then the actual cost to the customer may be higher. If Terry builds up a motor for a customer that buys a lot of other go fast goodies, the mapping charge will be much less than if that same go-fast bike was already built and brought to him for tuning. 1250 kit conversions will likely be considered a "common" configuration. Not as sure about the 1160 conversion on a 9. Terry has done every map so far with an A.S.B open airbox and K&N as part of the configuration. There are other intake tract configurations. At least one customer got a map but didn't have the A.S.B open air box kit, he had a F.A.S.T. configuration, and last I'd heard, it was not a perfect match. I would think that home-brew airbox hacks that route the breathers out would be a decent match, as would other air filters (i.e., Buell race or Uni filters). But other pod type filters may not give the desired response. The maps are not copy protected, per se. But the key only allows you to read the map once (i.e., the initial read). It is assumed that any subsequent map is already on the hard drive and therefore doesn't need to be re-read from the ECM. When we remap an ECM, we get the ECM, push the map in, and send the remapped ECM, the key, and a CD with the original map on it. We generally don't send the map itself. I have, with certain customers that we've personally spoken with and gotten assurances that it won't be distributed, furnished the map itself with Terry's permission. A lot of effort goes into those maps, and if they got posted in the public domain, the revenue from the maps would go to zero and the motivation for generating maps would similarly go to zero, which would be a bad thing for everyone. For similar reasons, we haven't published the Buell Race ECM map, as it belongs to Buell and isn't ours to publish. We've used it as a starting point for maps we've developed, but we don't sell an ECM remap that just pushes the Buell Race ECM map into a stock ECM. Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion about the whole process. Al | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Bravo, very stand up work. We appreciate the effort you are putting into this venture. | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Very informative Al. Thanks! I think out of the 10 bikes that we are talking about there is probably 3-4 different configurations. I would say there is probably 3 Drummers, 4 homeade gutted pipes, and 3 bikes with the Jardine. Pretty much everyone has the K&N, and from the costs associated with the dyno time it would probably be cheaper to convert the people that don't have the open airbox over to it so we can dyno less bikes. I'll let you know when we get everything nailed down. Thanks again Al! | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Oh crap, I forgot tha we also have a mix of 9s and 12s. Well, there would be more than 3-4 configurations. I'll figure it out and let you know. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Thanks for the feedback Al. It is greatly appreciated. | ||
| Madsx |
Thanks for the detailed write up Al. I believe I've seen it stated that it doesn't matter if you start with a regular or Race ECM for remapping. If I have both are there any advantages or disadvantages to either or? | ||
| 99buellx1 |
The advantage is there is a market for selling your Race ECM, not really one for the stocker. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The race ECM on the 12's doesn't require the servo or an emulator, but the stock one does. There is another thing that I can't quantify, but I'll make a guess. The 06 stock ECMs carry a different config ID than the 05 ECMs. But I've seen the maps on both, and they are identical. This LIKELY means that there must be something in the algorithms that changed in 06. I think it may be some fault tolerance and corner operating conditions that changed, I don't think there are major changes. The Race ECMs, however, did not change from 05 to 06. It is possible that alorithms could change in a race ECM without changing a config ID, but NOT with a stock ECM, due to possible EPA regulations. This is 100% conjecture on my part, I have no factual basis for that guess. So, my conclusion is that there MAY be some benefit to tuning and 06 stock ECM rather than using a race ECM. Terry tuned his Uly with his stock 06 ECM, we tuned mine with a race ECM. Both perform very well. Bottom line, I don't think it makes much difference either way if the map is good. Al | ||
| Jason2o |
Bikin2222 do you not think you have posted your statement: Unless you are a very good mechanic with access to a Dyno, do not buy a direct link. Find a Dealer, or hot rod bike shop with a dyno and Direct Link. Have THEM create a custom map specifically for your bike. It's the best way to go. Fooling around with fuel/air mixtures by a novice is the quickest way to blow up your bike. Enough, i know i have read it in other posts, and even twice in this post.. Everyone gets the hint.... Jason | ||
| Bikin2222 |
Well, EXCUSE me! I was just trying to protect/help a fellow Buell owner! Sorry if I upset, or offended you in doing so, but I see an awful lot of ignorance on this site. Just attempting to help out & enlighten. | ||
| Brineusaf |
Right, I saw nothing wrong with your mentioning it; good looking out for him bikin.  | ||
| Bikin2222 |
Some believe that sales numbers are more important than people. Others believe that kissing ass is more important than getting the truth out. That's just the way it is. | ||
| Al_lighton |
John is correct on this, mapping without the proper feedback is generally not a good idea. I wrote something a few posts back that should be revisited, because it isn't exactly true, and is counterintuitive. I wrote: "If all you ever did was ADD fuel, AND your bike wasn't too far off to begin with, you probably couldn't do more harm than fouling some plugs." Consider this: During closed loop operation (i.e, steady state operation below 4000 RPM), the ECM compares the fuel injector duration it determines from operation on the O2 sensor with the fuel injector duration it calculates from the internal map for the same RPM and throttle position. This is the mechanism that sets the AFV, which is the scalar applied to the open loop maps. It is because of this that all mapping during closed loop domain MUST be done to 14.7:1, which is the target that closed loop operation MUST try to hit because the sensor has no resolution elsewhere. I cover this in great detail in my tuning guide that is included with DirectLink when I sell it. Now, consider the consequences if one were to try to make the map richer over that same closed loop domain. The AFV obtained from the comparison between O2 derived injector duration and map derived injector duration would be LESS than 100. Example with completely bogus numbers: Say the closed loop derived injector duration for bike at 2500 RPM/ 15 degree throttle angle was 6 milliseconds. And say that someone trying to make their bike run richer down low changed the internal map value at that same RPM/Throttle angle so that it was 7 milliseconds. The AFV algorithm would, with enough steady state operation, creep the AFV downwards to a value of 6/7, or 85%. This is the lowest value that the AFV goes to, I believe. Now, when the bike leaves closed loop operation and moves into open loop operation, it will scale the open loop durations to 85% of the value calculated from the map. So the bike in open loop operation will start to run dangerously lean. Lean mixtures generate less cooling and more heat. Lean down low doesn't hurt so much, there is much less waste heat to deal with, and the engine cooling paths have been designed to deal with that amount of heat. But lean up high is what fries pistons. More power out at the same general efficiency results in more waste heat, and more waste heat results in higher combustion chamber wall temperatures. Exceed a certain surface temperatures, and detonation ensues. As I've indicated in my tuning guide, Buell hasn't given me training on the details of the internal algorithms, and there is certainly a possibility that I've interpreted how things work a bit incorrectly. But I can say that Terry and I have played enough with this to know that even if we haven't nailed the algorithms perfectly, the ECM response to our inputs is behaving as we think it should based on our understanding. So, based on what is written above, it can be concluded that folks that are shooting in the dark, working under the incorrect assumption that a richer map is always better, can do more harm than good. And regardless of the closed loop/open loop interactions discussed above, richer in open loop won't necessarily hurt much, but it won't necessarily make more power. Anything below 13:1 A/F ratio on a street Buell is silly, you'll just waste fuel, pollute more, and make less power. 13.5:1 is about optimum for an XB engine with stock internals based on what we've seen. Bump up the compression, change the heads or cams, and a bit lower may be better. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
Just another note related to the above example. The stuff discussed there is one of the reasons why "in-between" boxes like Techlusions and Power Commanders can behave very inconsistently on some Buells, and OK on others. It's not that they can't be made to work. But if changes are made that affect the closed loop response, they can greatly affect the AFV. And since the AFV is a dynamic thing, it can result in very inconsistent performance across the open loop domain, IF the tuning is done wrong. In the example above, say that you set the 2500RPM/15%-Throttle-angle injector duration rich like that. But say you set the 3000 RPM/20%-Throttle-angle correctly. Your bike would behave correctly one day if your last closed loop "session" set the AFV correctly. And it would run like crap the next day if your last closed loop "session" set the AFV correction incorrectly. Dynojet said with their documentation not to make changes "in the box", which represented the closed loop domain. Fact is, that statement isn't entirely correct. The correct statement would be to tune the box to 14.7:1 with the O2 sensor disconnected. They attempted to "fix" the system by intercepting the O2 sensor signal and spoof it's input to the ECM. That is one way to "fix" it, but fact is, the Buell ECM works pretty darned good as designed, once you can tailor the map to match the intake and exhaust configuration and make the internal map over the closed loop domain match the closed loop response. There are other reasons why the "in-between" boxes have issues with Buells (i.e, lack of temperature compensation, a key part of the Buell ECM functionality). DirectLink is just a better way to skin the cat. Al | ||
| Jason2o |
Bikin222 Sorry didnt mean to be so harsh, just got aggravated about the comment that i shouldnt buy this or that because i might blow up my engine.. I dont even plan on doing the tuning. If the shop blows up the bike then they'll pay for it as well... I have talked to people about dynotuning with the power commander, techlusion and the race ecm. I just wanted to know the best route for accuracy.. If i wanted to tune my bike on my own it wouldnt be that hard since i have access to an exhaust analyzer.. I will be going direct-link with one of the local shops. Gonna talk to a friend who builds Harley race bikes and see who he recommends, and see if he wants to clean up my heads and through them on the flowbench.. Jason | ||
| Diablobrian |
Jason, Be sure to read the release form the shop will have you sign before dyno tuning very carefully. Most have a clause in there that they are not responsible for damage to the motorcycle during dyno runs. Of course every case is different and they may take care of you, but won't be bound to. In other words they may not pay for it if it blows up. Dyno runs are very hard on any engine, and they know it. | ||
| Tleighbell |
Al, you have been very generous with the time you are taking with the detailed explanations in this thread, not to mention the time developing the direct link and I am sure they are much appreciated by those who have some knowledge of modern fuelling systems. Unfortunately for me, I haven't learned much about such things since the days of Lucas points and Amal carburettors (anyone even heard of those?). To bottom line it for this archeological specimen, am I correct that unless I have a set up for which you have a map prepared (in which case I just need the direct link), then I have to get the direct link, the key and the broad band O2 sensor plus a lot of dyno time which will be tough on my engine? If so, what set up would you recommend for an 03 XB9S with the factory race kit? What if I add on one of the ABR power pods which I have already bought but not added yet? What if I want to leave the door open to going to a 1050 or other big bore kit with or without stage 2 or stage 3 heads at some time in the rosy future? Or should I just call you? | ||
| Al_lighton |
"...am I correct that unless I have a set up for which you have a map prepared (in which case I just need the direct link), then I have to get the direct link, the key and the broad band O2 sensor plus a lot of dyno time which will be tough on my engine? Essentially, though I don't think 4 hours of dyno tuning time is all that tough on an engine if the person doing the tuning observes proper temperature management procedures. If all you have is a factory race kit (i.e, filter, exhaust, ECM) I doubt I'd go remapping that combo. It is a reasonable combination in a reasonable state of tune, but there is a couple ponies to unlock by changing the airbox around a little. But if you did more than that, well, tuning it properly sure isn't a bad idea if you have someone that can do the work. I don't have any experience with a power pod, I can't say what it does either way. If you go big bore, you should definitely plan on getting it tuned or it's just a big waste of money to start. Al | ||
| Tleighbell |
thanks Al. What airbox mods are you thinking of? My concern is not so much for maximum horses, more just the midrange, driveability, throttle response. Does this mean I don't need a direct link or TFI? I guess I'll start with a base dyno run and see what I have right now. |
