| Author | Message | ||
     Altima02 |
I searched, but to no avail. Has anyone got the XBS service manual on CD, like they have on EBAY? Are they thorough? I am sure they are. I was just wondering, if someone has it on a CD, could it be copied? I dont see why not. If I had one I could make copies of it. Just a thought.  | ||
| Diablobrian |
There is no real, official, Buell licensed, manual on CD. All of the electronic copies are pirated. And most are kind of clunky, No search function etc. I for one wish Buell would offer an electronic manual. I'll bet it is piracy that prevents it though. | ||
| Court |
>>>All of the electronic copies are pirated. That's an inaccurate statement. Buell did several CD's, including an owners manual and a service manual, in the 1996-97 era. They were not very popular at the time. I've got a case of them buried here somewhere. I suspect you will see expanded electronic information in the future. I think it'd be cool, even if you paid an annual access fee like you do for AAA or something. One of my problems, with one of everything Buell has ever printed since 1987, for me is simply room. I've got the better part of a bookcase full of manuals and several boxes stashed away. What do you think would be a fair price and how would you like to see it packaged? Web access? CD is a snappy cover? Would you like access to updates. . .i.e corrections pages and updated/superceded part numbers. I'd sure like your thoughts and the timing is good. Court | ||
| Brotherbuell |
Court, I wouldn't even think about CD's these days. The advantage of a web subscription would be the assurance of up do date info and much more efficient distribution logistics. Let's face it, anyone who is interested in having the manual available electronically will have web access. I would think this would be a huge cost savings to Buell and an opportunity to recognize and serve the hands-on orientation of its customer base. | ||
| Ducxl |
Ducati offers parts manuals in .PDF format FOR FREE on their website.I've paid something like $35-$45 each for my Buell parts manuals  . I wish Buell offered FOR FREE some valuable stuff in .PDF . We all posess computers now and,the parts break down and zooming functions of the Adobe reader would make it's use very helpful in conjunction with motorcycle mechanics. | ||
| Court |
Ducati has done an excellent job, not doubt about it. I have a concern about "free" in that people tend to ascribe value with at least some regard to what they pay for a product. In addition, a subscription fee can really bring a lot to the table. Imagine the power of this deal if I could prepare and present a presentation that essentially provided for a top-notch web-based password protected authoritative site for such info and make the case that the service would pay for itself. Those types of things, that add value, enhance the ownership experience and stand on their own are tough to ignore. I'm listening to all the comments. Let's have a discussion. By that, I mean a good old fashioned Buell engineering team discussion where Ducxl can say free and I can say $$ and one of us doesn't have to call the other names. I'm eager to hear thoughts on various methods of deployment, access, content. Court | ||
| Cataract2 |
I think I'll just stick with my Service Manual in paper. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Here's my 2 cents Court... Piracy will be a huge problem. The CD versions that are out there now are really crappy. When Buell puts out a good one, *that* will be the one that is bootlegged high and low. The only way to deal with that (and this is coming from a professional in the information security field) would be to go with the "make it available online route". You then however just signed up to create, manage, maintain, and secure an online system (which again is my day job, except we have a many terrabytes of searchable data, not megabytes). You will have to pay a lot of people like me, which probably won't make sense financially, unless you already have to to it for some other reason. There may also be turnkey systems available that solve much of this for you, but deploying, securing, and maintaining them will still be more expensive then you might think. Think of it like buying an off the shelf 3rd party manufacturers motorcycle frame for your new product. You could do it, and maybe even produce a decent bike at the end, but you will likely never really be completely happy with or proud of the result. Maybe there are good systems out there though, it would be a good business opportunity for somebody. I am suprised Reynolds and Reynolds is not in the business. Basically, unless you want to go down the "provide online systems" route to achieve a number of business ends, it would probably be better to just produce the CD. Control the shrinkage problem by using all those bored HD lawyers to maintain a harrassment campaign against pirates. Make 'em work for a living. They likely already prowl badweb anyway, and they already prowl ebay (if they don't, whoever has my job but at HD should be fired). That would at least drive piracy down to good old fashioned "steal it in person from a friend" level. That's the business side. If I put on my consumer hat, I would love a tech manual that could be shaped by consumers. I would have to think a while on what that should look like, but it could be as simple as "submit correction or suggestion" links on the page, a "user comments" field (go look at Amazon.com's product reviews) and maybe a "how long did this job take" running average score as submitted by end users. Feel free to ping me offline if you or anyone from the factory wants to have some unofficial conversations about the ramafications and security issues around running a large online pay per use information system. | ||
| Ducxl |
Well i don't mind the fee dealio...at all...but as a consumer i must be able to measure value.Content??? Could,or would the factory support us "do-it-yourselfers" in the first place? Ducati actively discourages such endeavours as too sophisticated for us.Too bad as,you never know just who you're dealing with.But,back to content,suspension set-up? Rocker box gasket R&R,rear wheel removal/installation,headstock bearing replacement/tension,fork R&R are types of things i'd wish to discuss.Oh yeah,i was just notified of the new "tech section" at Buell.com and it's only a rehashing of old Fuell articles.....NOT what I expected. (Message edited by ducxl on March 26, 2006) | ||
| Ducxl |
Check these parts manuals out..http://www.ducati.com/bikes/catalogs.jhtml FREE of charge AND piracy.In an excellent Adobe Acrobat reader format. (Message edited by ducxl on March 26, 2006) | ||
| Bikoman |
Here is a link to a pirated one. (link removed) John (we appreciate your desire to share and help fellow Buellers, but we don't facilitate theft here on this site) (Message edited by reepicheep on March 26, 2006) | ||
| Chainsaw |
I'm listening to all the comments. Let's have a discussion. IMO, the Parts Manual should be available FREE in a searchable online form or a downloadable PDF. I see no harm to BMC in being able to find your own part number so you can BUY PARTS! Charging +$30 for the privilege seems excessive. Lots of HD after-market manufacturers have free versions of parts catalogs, I assume because it's cheaper than mailing and printing, and it drives sales of said parts. IMO, I would like to see the Service Manual also available in an Electronic format paired with the hard copy. Key code the CD with a serial number on the hard copy, online activation and registration to use the E-format should reduce or eliminate piracy. I do not expect BMC to ever offer a Service Manual for free. | ||
| Sarodude |
Bill- I am a geek myself. I disagree that the system needs to be as complex as you describe. We don't really need Google type searchability - and we're only talking about what, Service Manuals, Parts Manuals, and maybe Service Bulletins. Not terabytes of stuff - just megabytes. Really, the intended audience probably knows what manual they want. 1996 S2 parts. 2005 XB9R service bulletins. Etc... Of course, a paradigm shift in manual presentation would be cool too. What else uses part# xxxx? Why do parts & service have to be seperate? There's a whole buncha stuff that can be explored. If the initial phase of the project was to release existing PDFs to online subscribers, nothing would have to be reformatted, recompiled, or re-anythinged. Of course, that doesn't prevent one person from hijacking the PDFs and distributing them.... That would call for some other architecture and distribution medium. -Saro | ||
| Diablobrian |
Sorry, I mispoke earlier, I was referring to XB manuals. I would like to see the parts manual available online as well. It would also save DaveS many hours every week looking up part numbers. The only caveat would be the need to keep the part numbers updated. parts are revised and old numbers made obsolete at a fairly high rate. This shows attention to detail and revision of parts that get used a lot, but it makes it hard to order parts from a....less than enthusiastic dealer. I know it would be difficult to keep pretty much any format both useful and secure. In any form it needs to have the option of being printed out for use in the garage. I would be more interested in a one time purchase than an annual subscription to the service manual. | ||
| Toona |
Here's my .02, I paid $40 plus dollars for a printed service manual that will never change. Unless I happen to tear a page out by accident. HOPEFULLY, I'LL NEVER NEED TO USE IT  . The neat part about a CD service manual, is that you can print out a clean copy of what section you are working on, then once done, just throw that fingerprinted copy away. I only need the manual specific to my bike, i.e., an '04 XBS. I don't need a service manual far any other models. As far as the parts manual on CD. Let that to the Buell dealer parts dept. I call up the dealer, tell them what parts I want/need and let them earn the mark up on the parts that I'm buying from them. I realise some of us are diehard and won't let the dealer touch our bikes, either because of the service rates or lack of a "local" dealer (my closest Buell dealer is about 100 miles away). But either way, we still have to call to the dealer to get the parts or the service guy walks over to the parts counter. It still goes thru the parts counter. I say keep the printed parts manual for guys like me. Whenever I call in to order part #abc, the parts guy looks up #abc, and sees that it has been updated to #def, I could care less. I just need the part to get me back on the road, regardless of what number is on the outside of the box. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Saro, I agree to a point, but getting the content up is the easy part. Now, what do you do to make it subscriber only? You need a good authentication system, and fullfillment system. You taking credit cards to do it? The system better be PCI (Payment Card Industry) compliant. As you suggested, you don't want to give the whole PDF, but 5 minutes after you post the page by page stuff online, some punk with a perl script is going to be downloading the whole thing. At 2 am on a Sunday. What's your pager number? How do you stop them? Do you have the necessary forensic data to prosecute? Etc etc... you get the idea. | ||
| Loki |
The Parts Catalogs online in PDF will be a big boost for us the consumer and for Buell. 1) with them online we would be reasonably sure that the part numbers would be the current ones in the system. 2) with the downsizing of available outlets(Buell dealerships) it would be nice to be able to call a shop with my requirements. To be able to include a part number in the discussion is a very big bonus. Some parts types even with the books are at a loss. **my nearest Buell dealer is now 2hrs(one way) to the east or west of me. Might as well say the same for north and south of me. 3)With the parts book online it should kill any idea of piracy for profit with it. **I like using kawasakis online parts diagrams The Service Manuals 1)Keep them hardbound 2)If it goes digital, supply it with a subscription key for access either online or in an optical format 3) make either (version) available at a discount at the time of purchase of the bike as a side note, I have four service manuals and six parts books sitting here. | ||
| Daves |
I kind of like finger printed manuals  | ||
| Ducxl |
now let's get some things straight.the parts manual can serve TWO purposes. 1) as an assembly diagram with parts layed out IN ORDER of assembly.This is particularly important the first time an assembly is torn down. 2) To save MY valuable time AT the parts counter.Yes,with my "anal" parts list in my hand,the parts guy saves time looking up every thingy i'm seeking.Motorcycle maintainance(when done thoroughly)consists of multiple assemblies and each and every part replaced takes up a lot of time.Time,as we all well know whilst waiting our turn at a busy parts counter is of the essence. My dealers wife (Annika) once said,"you can't have a SM without a PM",and i'm a firm believer. 2cents worth | ||
| Timbo |
While I have bought, and will continue to buy both my parts and service manuals from the factory in the printed form (they are crash proof  ), I do agree it would be nice to have an "up to date" electronic version available. Possible suggestions, Offer it through Buell's existing web site. Make it part of the BRAG membership "package" (added incentive to join BRAG). Access it with your BRAG membership number. Make it available to non BRAG members for a small fee. Just thinking out loud, but at some "future" date it could be enhanced to have video clips that demonstrate how to perform difficult procedures. Of course I could see how dealerships that provide service might not like this "feature", but it would be a good selling point for it. As far as tips and tricks for performing maintenance and repairs, I can think of no better resource than our very own BadWeb and it's members! Thanks Blake and all. Timbo | ||
| Court |
This is very good stuff. You guys are hitting some things that are great ideas, I'd never thought of | ||
| Rr_eater |
Another point to online, constantly updated manual and parts breakdown: for the dealerships that are not worth the dirt under their foundations, yet carry our marquee, we could take them CURRENT and CORRECT part numbers for stuff we need/want, and not have to ask them to look it up, only to have them say "thats no longer available" or "that part number is no good in the system, dont know what to tell you"!!! I HATE THAT CRAP!! I also believe the manual should come at a bit of a discount to guys when they buy new rides, so they may have the proper and safe manual for normal servicing, without spending another 100 bucks. Just me .02 Bruce | ||
| Sarodude |
Bill- (forgive the following simplifications) A special client app could be developed. Say someone wrote a client side Java (cross platform) app that was required to view the material which would only be presented through said app (piped encrypted, decryoted on the fly at the client). Best that could then be done then is screen prints of the app - page by page. Security, authentication, protection - all serious considerations. Nothing prevents us from photocopying stuff now - if ya really think about it. Just varying degrees of inconvenience. Maybe the client app could require some sort of dongle. I hate dongles. Seems like they follow dingles, then dangles. But I digress... There must be some smart folks at HD or Buell who are up to this task - and keeping it in budget. I'm just not sure how beneficial this would be to the company. The image it would paint would be FANTASTIC. The same way that having a factory supported privateer effort is COOL and may pay back in ways difficult or impossible to measure. I just dunno if it'd make sense to devote the resources to it from a typical perspective. Maybe the way to look at it is simply this... The stuff can be kludged into unauthorized distribution easily enough. Why not just legitimize it, charge a reasonable (HA!) fee, and move on? Let's let the smart folks at the factory figure this out. -Saro | ||
| Loki |
Timbo, You're BRAG ID as the access key to the online stuff. Would be the good option. Court, -New owners would have access from the get go(until renewal time) -It would be that other definable asset brought to the table for(to be) a member of BRAG -A simple once a year(or less) type of payment structure. ***A win-win situation for BUELL, BRAG and the consumer. The BRAG ID will give the system a definable set of access valid numbers. Add a user selectable password to it and away you go. Sure there would still be some piracy of the intellectual material. Yet it would be mostly mitigated by bringing it to the table with the other BRAG incentives. As a side note. My local HD/Ex-Buell shop loved it when I walked in with my books and numbers. It sped up service to everybody, not having to dig out a buried book or learning they did not have it(the book) in the first place. | ||
| Gbr |
I'd hate to see the demise of the paper version no matter what. Maybe its just me, but it seems like many times I've worked on my car, truck, or some other mechanical device, and had something totally unrelated go to hell in a handbasket. It is sure nice to have the book right there in front of me, rather than having to go get my computer dirty trying to find the correct info. I'd like to see some electronic versions, but I for one would still want the "fingerprinted" version for my shop. (Also, my attitude when unforseen problems occur are not conducive to proper computer usage. Printed manuals survive throws across the room better than my laptop.)  | ||
| Henrik |
I would love an online combination of the service and parts manual, as someone mentioned before. Cross linking, cross searching, call it what you want. It'd be cool and could potentially be very handy for shade tree mechanics looking to customize. It could also be useful to be able to look for updated parts and see if those parts could be used to update/upgrade an older bike. Oil pump pinion gear is an example of that. It would also be useful to be able to cross reference the mention of a part in the service manual with a part number and exploded diagram from the parts book. I'd be willing to pay for this online version. I would however want to be able to print it out as well; either in total or by section. Printing out content found via the search function should be printable in the form found as well. The prints being necessary for shop use. Henrik | ||
| Slaughter |
I like paper. I have demolished 2 laptops now with oily hands and dropping them while tuning the bike in the hot pit at the track. Yes - a regularly updated manual available online would be tres' kewl. Print what I'd need and head to the garage. Meanwhile I'll keep staining my old manual and doing my part to contribute to the destruction of the old growth forests. | ||
| Toona |
Ditto on Timbo's idea about an incentive to be a BRAG member. I'm not a BRAG member. With the closest chapter to ride with being 2 hours away, I have no other incentive to be a member. Lord knows I get enough other magazines that I don't read. Plus I usually find out any important info on the BadWeb that is in Fuell anyway. I wouldn't mind a reasonable subscription fee for online access. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I like the brag link idea too. That could potentially streamline things a bit. I joined BRAG this past year and was kind of questioning the value of re-upping, but this could be a deal maker. The cross-link between manual and parts would be nice, but the parts manual I have now does a nice job of connecting the part number to the item. | ||
| Loki |
bump |
