| Author | Message | ||
     Jmartz |
We need to define the grounds of comparison, if we don't our discussions are meaningless. If its rider ability we want talk bout then we must specify so. If its motorcycle power power/design then lets get to it. Buells are piss poor at accelerating except during the 1st 200 feet. There is no need to justify their shortcomings with rider abilities. In a level playing field in-line 4's with 1/2 the displacement will win the 1/4 mile every time. God forbid a 1000cc RR or a 1300cc Hyabusa. In spite of their measly power output they run good on the street and on curvy roads, sound better than most others and look way cooler. Living in Atlanta I am frequently at odds with the "natives" when I point out that Haank AAron's claim to being the home run king of base ball is pure poppycock. W/o defining the # of chances at bat the total # of home runs cannot be quatified. Babe Ruth had 700 and some Aaron over 1000. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
This discusion was meant at getting people talking about the firebolt and vrod. Im not trying to piss anyone off! So what if we talk about comparing our bikes to jap bikes and so on. I mainly like coming over to my computer and seeing something new and interesting on the Quick board. Buells and Vrods are my 2 favorite motorcycles and I wanted to hear what you guys had to say about them. There is no sense in comparing our bikes or any other bike for that matter with Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron just keep Bullshitting about HotRodding!!!!! | ||
| Spiderman |
OK REEP lets back track here. Have you ever drivin a GSXR1000 or comparible street bike? I have Had a GSXR up to 120 in second on a off ramp. A Hyabusa's top speed first gear is over a 100mph. Riding is 90% rider 10% bike. I have beat the shit out of a CBR 929 cause he didn't know that 70 is when he should have shifted into second instead of 30. Now I am off to see BUellistic Eks vs Sever so Eat my shorts i'm out dis mutha flubber. | ||
| Aaron |
Let's compare two hypothetical bikes ... bike A (a Buell) makes 80 ft/lbs at 4,000rpm bike B (a ricer) makes 40 ft/lbs at 12,000rpm Let's say both bikes are going a speed that requires a 500rpm wheel speed. Bike A has 8:1 of overall gearing, because 4,000 / 8 = 500. It also has 640 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel, because 80 * 8 = 640. Bike B has 24:1 of overall gearing, because 12,000 / 24 = 500. It also has 960 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheel, because 40 * 24 = 960. Well, f=ma, so assuming they're the same weight, bike B is going to accelerate harder. It matters not whether you do that calculation at 1 rear wheel rpm or 1000 rear wheel rpm, the motor with the highest combination of torque and rpm will put more torque to the rear wheel, period. The clutch really has nothing to do with it, either. You're not going to have to slip one more than the other, if both are geared for the same ground speed. Engine torque by itself is not a performance metric, that's one of the biggest misconceptions out there. Torque is just how hard you're pushing, without regard for how fast you're doing it. Hell, I can make 1000ft/lbs of torque with a battery powered drill motor, if I apply enough gear reduction. It'd be moving awfully slow, though. Likewise, rpm by itself is not a performance metric. It's how fast you're pushing without regard for how hard you're pushing. Hell, I can make 1,000,000 rpm with a handheld drill motor, by applying enough gearing. It wouldn't push very hard, though. That's why we talk horsepower when we're talking performance. Horsepower is the combination of torque and rpm. | ||
| Anonymous |
Aaron, Blake has signed on using your account and he's doing math again...MAKE HIM STOP! | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Very interesting! You must be some kind of engineer!! | ||
| Blake |
HP beats torque every day of the week at any track I've ever seen. My buddy's CBR600F3 racer is just as fast if not faster than my Nallinized M2. That goes for 60 ft, 1/8 mi, and 1/4 mile. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Your buddys cbr600 is probably not having as hard of a time busting the tire loose or pulling wheelies. You should at least get him in the first 60 ft. Maybe he is a hell of a rider and can rev the shit out of his motor without going over. I have seen the vrod kill the cbr600 especially on the bottom end. Then again maybe its the rider in this case. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
all I know is this you can have a buch of power but its weight reduction that we worjk on for the race bikes....yes old buells have more power but they have more weight also...I cxan tell ya this ...at bristol drags a buell fiebolt was runnin 11.4's and that was with out a whellie bar and the front tire off the ground alot slowing it down ,,,,it's power to weight ratio wake up ....the v rod was slower at bristol.... seesya bubba | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Aaron, this means bike b will have to be revving his bike at least 10000 rpm to leave as hard as you if you are revving bike a at 4000 rpm. In the real world I dont see this happening. Once he is up and rolling ,sure he will catch you but the big flywheels do make a difference in getting the bike moving at a realistic rpm. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
No Way!!!! A firebolt faster than a Vrod. This cannot happen. Firebolts were designed for backroads only. The Vrod is a drag bike from the factory!! (being sarcastic)!!!!! | ||
| Spiderman |
Thank you Aaron even thoes these young Jedi are still unaware of the Buell Force.  BTW Buellistic Eks vs Sever Awesome movie specially the Buell part I won't ruin it for you.  | ||
| Blake |
AR, In the real world no, at the drag strip, heck yeah! Traction is not even an issue. The sticky stuff on the drag strip is like glue. The hard part is keeping the front wheel earthbound. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Not all tracks are prepped properly and some dont do any prepping on week nights. I know what you are saying about the wheelies though. | ||
| Blacksix |
How's his little track bike doing anyway Blake? Anyone doing anything with a Bolt yet? | ||
| Blake |
Black6, It is in racing form and is pretty darn fast. Why do you call it "little"? It's a CBR600F3 capable of 150+ mph. | ||
| Blacksix |
Sorry...I meant "little" for me dude. As in Elephant straddles Ant "little". | ||
| Aesquire |
Great Thread! Looking forward to test riding a V-rod this spring. Dealer even knows I can't get one, but just sold me a M2L so is probably hoping I'll crack & rob a bank. I think my comment was " 9000rpm?! Gotta try one a these" I think he actually chortled. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
The v rod is a very nice bike. The looks of it are not to apealing to me but the motor and performance for such a heavy cruiser is great.My fire bolt has a hard time keeping up with my friends vrod. He has a supertrapp exhaust,powercommander,and an air filter and he runns with the jap 600's all day long. | ||
| Imonabuss |
AR151, He oughta be able to run with them in a straight line, that's for sure. He won't run with them or you on a twisty back road though! The V-Rod is a beautiful cruiser engine, unquestionably the best out there. However, it is not a sportbike engine by any measure available. The power is not great for an 1150cc engine (compared to import sport engines, that is), and it is huge and heavily styled. But the power is perfect for a cruiser, and the looks are way cool. If I had the money and the desire for a cruiser, there wouldn't be any other choice! Have a great New Year, everyone. | ||
| Blackmotorcycle |
This is a pretty wild conversation. I have a highly modified Buell M-2 and a FZ1. Now don't get me wrong, the Buell is a fun bike, but the FZ will beat it without changing gears. By the time I hit second gear the Buell would have to be in 5th. The FZ does a 10.5 1/4. I am also planning to go up 3 teeth on the rear sprocket of the FZ. Regarding the V-rod. for a V-Twin it is a very impressive engine with it's numbers. It's hard for a V-Twin to compete with a inline 4. That’s why 750 Inline 4's race 1000 VTwins. Someone said it is a cruiser engine. I disagree. It has no business on a cruiser. Matter of fact it came from a sport bike engine design. Put that thing on the Bolt in some form (shorter), and you have a world-class sport bike that could compete with a RC-51. I would love to see Buell compete with the big Japanese 4 and Duc. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Yes, it is a cruiser engine. Check the power to weight numbers on a V-Rod engine and you will find out it doesn't even come close to being a sport-bike engine. The import sportbike V-twins give away 150cc and still have much more power, besides being 50 to 80 lbs lighter. So, as a cruiser motor, the V-Rod is a winner. In it's category (air-cooled, pushrod, ultimate development of a classic design), the XB motor is a winner. I love my XB, and don't know if I would want a water-cooled bike to replace it, but I agree there are probably aa lot of folks out there who would buy one. It would be embarassing to have a motor that has all the credentials (DOHC, water cooled, double downdraft EFI, short stroke, brand new) and not be competitive. In short, if Buell ever goes water-cooled, I'd like to see them have an engine that gives nothing away to the competition. The RW-750 was supposed to be a competitive water-cooled race engine in it's class and era, so why not do the same in a streetbike? I'd expect nothing less. Unless Buell should build cruisers, not sportbikes, but I don't think that will happen... | ||
| Blackmotorcycle |
.,.thats what I mean, It was designed after the VR1000. They would have to do away with all of the designing they did for looks and concentrate on performance, i.e. drop some weight.. The Japanese companies put tons of money into R&D. In my humble opinion, HD needs to put out some of that cash the yuppies are dumping on them, and get back into competition. I know many people disagree with this. Not sure if I am an important customer to HD/Buell, I am but one opinion, but this is the very reason they didn’t get my latest bike purchase. Basically I see two classes of bike in the so called Sport area, Sport bikes, and Street fighters. With the Firebolt, they designed a sport bike, not what I would call a Street fighter. If that’s the direction, I would like to see a Sport bike engine on it, and I would like to see it compete, I would like to have one for the track. I also think they made a mistake dropping what I call the Street Fighters like the M-2, X-1. They could have made the M-2 even more appealing to the Street Fighter crowd. I don’t think the Street Fighter crowd is looking for Sport Bike performance, they want wrist-breaking torque and badass looks. Just my opinion | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Whatever you want to call the vrod motor cruiser or sport, it is a giant leap forward compared to the air cooled 45 twins Harley is putting out. I love my modern designed firebolt motor. It has come a long way, but if you have ever ridden a vrod you will know what I am talking about. I see it to be in the same class as Ducatis Ltwins when it comes to performance.Remember this is only the beginning of this motor. There is a lot more power in the vrod engine that has not been tapped into. My buddys vrod with just the exhaust and the power commander(custom map) is one quick motorcycle. And dont forget this bike weighs 600lbs. We will be racing again soon, now that I have my race kit and Latus muffler! I probably wont beat him but it should be closer. | ||
| Rick_A |
The V-Rod motor really has little to do with the VR1000. The VR1000 was a test bed for the basic configuration and nothing more. Look at some cutaways of the two and you'll see that. The way I see it is that for an extra few grand you can build an XB that'd spank a V-Rod and a lot of imports in straightline speed. It'd still be a hell of a bargain over a V-Rod, and turns like nothing else. Wow, how about that? There's plenty of high performance liquid cooled engines out there already...building high performance aircooled motors like CycleRama, Nallin, Axtell, S&S and others are doing is a much more noteworthy undertaking, IMO. I guess I like seeing the underdog woop some ass. | ||
| Blake |
AR15, Do you have a dyno of your XB9 with the race ECM and the Latus? I think if Imonabuss is right, 50 to 80 pounds will be real tough to loose, and you are aiming to beat the Duc 999, RC51, and RCV Mille, you WILL need to lose it, along with pumping out another 10 to 20 HP. | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Blake, I do have a dyno but I have no way to post the sheets. I expained it as best as I could in the Latus versus Buell muffler topic. The 10 or 20 hp will not be that hard to achieve on the vrod motor.Cutting the weight 50 to 80 pounds is another story. I bet that HD could cut 20 or so pounds with just removing the chrome and fake fins on the cylinders. The vrod motor is a hell of a lot closer than ever before to keeping up with the other twins from around the world! | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Arent topics like these far more interesting than ones like buell alternative lifestyles and the such. | ||
| Dynarider |
Rick, for a few extra grand??? Hell take the few extra grand & pump it into the V-rod motor & you will kick just about any & I do mean any bikes ass. Blake & Court both saw & heard the V-Rod that Wes was riding the night of the Elves gig here in Wisconsin. They have 2 V-rod mules at the factory, the one Wes was on I believe is putting out about 140 or so hp at the rear & is running in the 10's at the strip. The other mule is over 160hp. The V-rod as it comes from the factory is in a mild state of tune & can be pumped up big time. And Firebolt owners wanna tangle with a 160hp V-rod in a stoplight war??  | ||
| Ar15ls1 |
Damm, the vrod motor is even stronger than I thought. And with the long wheel base of the vrod it will be hard to beat in a straight line. |
