| Author | Message | ||
     Midknyte |
"new aerodynamics in the design will compensate to keep the bike on the ground." Home > Accessories > Helmet Accessories > GMax > Gmax Helmet Fin http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/item.aspx?style=5506&department=601&Divisio n=6  | ||
| Midknyte |
Now who's gonna be caught dead with on of those? | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
oh come on, you don't want to be the first dork on the block to have one of those....   | ||
| Vonsliek |
what ever happened to motoCZYSZ?? | ||
| M1combat |
"GMax Gmax Helmet Fin $14.99 * Visually enhances the appearance of your helmet to make you look fast * Mounts to any motor sports style helmet within minutes without a drill, screws or glue" Woot... Now I can LOOK fast and not have to worry about BEING fast any more... I'll take two. | ||
| Jscott |
They have received their second round of financing and are in the process of building their second bike. Testing on the second bike is scheduled for July 2006. http://www.motoczysz.com | ||
| Perry |
Yeah.... It looks fast. WWOOOOO HOOOOO  | ||
| Coyote_xb12s |
 Anthony "The Go Show" Gobert  Scott " Mr. Daytona" Russell I don't think the fin made either one of these guys a dork... but they sure were fast!!! | ||
| Patrickh |
I heard helmet fins make you ride faster...espically on the street | ||
| Diablobrian |
I've examined Ed's bike and talked to him about it. He spends his winter months making things like C-F tanks, and every other body part is similarly constructed. He has removed the battery, and every excess component is gone including superfluous pieces of wiring harness. There is no trick he hasn't covered. Lighter exhaust, tail section, fasteners are aluminum where it'll do, titanium where possible, and only steel if it HAS to be. His bike is very trick for a privateer, almost a works spec, and would certainly never be streetable. His running it in superstock regularly causes disputes. I understand his stock airbox contained within a ram air box almost caused a fight when Elliot ruled it legal. A 300lb 1200cc street bike, even "claimed" dry is pure pie in the sky. | ||
| Blake |
Glitch, Nooooooooo..... Tell me it ain't true, that you've bought into that silly myth... "But, given that emissions are getting tighter every year, they will have to come up with something." The current R6 and most sport bikes, definitely the repli-racers require two catalytic converters in order to meet the new stricter exhaust emissions requirements. How many catalytic converters does a Buell require? So, how cool is it that your Buell engine is actually far superior to the supposedly latest and greatest the world has to offer when it comes to efficiency and enviromentally friendly performance? I think it is WAY cool.  | ||
| Blake |
A 300 LB Buell 1.2L machine... hmmmm It surely would cost millions, at least for the prototype... Take the current FX XB12RR bike at 380 LBs wet and do some... Carbon fiber (CF) wheels (-20 LBs), CF forks (-10 LBs), CF covers (-5 LBs), ceramic or honeycomb core brake disks (-2 Lbs), CF muffler (-7 LBs), Ti/CF headers (-1 LB), all Al or Ti alloy fasteners (-3 LBs), CF levers/pedals/pegs (-1 LB), how about a CF rear shock spring (-2 LB), CF rocker box covers/spacers (-1 LB), CF bodywork all around (-5 LBs), thinner/stronger super-plastic formed frame and swingarm (-10 LB), CF handle bars, hollow exotica crank, ceramic bearings, belt drive primary with dry clutch,there's gotta be a way to drop 5 LBs from the tranny and its mating structure to the swingarm ... Likely to ever go beyond my imagination? If we live long enough, who knows.  | ||
| 650 |
I would be stoked for a sub 400 pound road ready XB. The 600s are getting lighter and lighter. The Suzuki MotoGP bike is only 326 lbs. That seems exceptionally light. Edit: One could always offset more weight with more power to a degree. (Message edited by 650 on January 11, 2006) | ||
| Kootenay |
This thread reminds me a bit of bicycle "modding"--the more weight you remove, the more each extra gram costs to remove... | ||
| Glitch |
But, given that emissions are getting tighter every year, they will have to come up with something. Tell me it ain't true, that you've bought into that silly myth... Start with when there was no emissions testing. Look at the progression of emissions testing since what 1976 to now. 30 years of having to comply, BMC and HD have had to change the bikes slightly. I gave no time frame, only said that it wouldn't be 2007, and it won't. BMC and HD will have to change the engine to comply with stricter emissions, unless of course emissions stop the progression. It could take another 30 years, my point was a V-Rod engined Buell won't happen, and BMC won't go to liquid cooled until forced to. The myth you speak of was not was I was talking about. | ||
| Benm2 |
The '03 TZ250 weighs 225 lbs dry, according to Yamaha's press release. Yes, its a dedicated track machine but it is NOT full of extremely exotic materials. Listed power is 91hp, from what I've seen, over at tz250racing.com. Why look to exotic stuff for weight loss? Where do the millions of dollars need to come into play? The weight loss on current 600-class motorcycles hasn't come from an expanse of expensive materials, but rather from careful attention to detail. A few easy shots: 1. Magnesium for primary & cam cover. Slight changes for material strength differences, but pretty straightforward. Also, revise cover mounting methods so shorter bolts can be used. Mg rocker boxes & covers too. 2. Ti-muffler, already covered. Lots of machines come stock with these already. 3. Mag wheels, forged. Reliable metals are available, patterns are already established. Or forged aluminum, like the R1LE. The already light ZTL wheels could be lighter if forged... 4. Permanent magnet starter, with rare earth magnets. Reduction in inrush current would also allow for a smaller battery. 5. Change battery technology away from Lead-Acid. More sophisticated charging circuit will be required, and a "super capacitor" bank will have to be added for starting current demand. 6. Aluminum clutch basket & primary sprockets. 7. Rare-earth magnet alternator 8. titanium shifter shaft & forks 9. lighter flysheels 10. Nicasil cylinders 11. Aluminum belt-drive output sprocket 12. belt-driven cams with aluminum sprockets 13. Hollow shift drum 14. Titanium valves & retainers 15. Composite throttle body (plastic, already in use on some cars) Just a few. The devil's in the details, in gram-scale increments in some places, all over the bike. | ||
| Glitch |
4. Permanent magnet starter, with rare earth magnets. Reduction in inrush current would also allow for a smaller battery. If we're talking track bike, get rid of the starter, and the stator. | ||
| Benm2 |
On a track bike, there's alot of ways to save weight. That item was for a streetbike. It is interesting to note that the MotoGP bikes appear to run alternators. With power demands for data acquisition, ignition, fuel injectors, and fuel pump a battery big enough to go the distance would be large & heavy. I'd be willing to bet that the alternators are wicked-light, though. | ||
| Sarodude |
Trying to compare a motor and bike which only delivers 125cc's worth of power pulses to one that delivers 600cc's worth of power pulses is probably not exactly apples & apples. In fact, I suspect that the individual bang / displacement for the XB motor STOCK is somewhat higher than the TZ. Also, the 2 stoker "unloads" things less so I THINK when things get loaded after each bang that there's less shock everywhere - crank, clutch / primary, tranny, final drive - and all this having to be restrained by the frame. This has nothing to do with how fast something will go but more to do with how BUILT something needs to be physically to withstand the individual power pulses. I ain't no engineer - at least not in the world of solid things. This is just what I've come to understand. -Saro | ||
| Benm2 |
Apples to apples comparisons are hard to come by, unless your comparing apples.  Sure, the XB's power pulses are harder, but there's still 75 pounds you could add to get to 300 lb dry. All without unobtainium, but with a two-stroke engine. I dunno, its all just opinions till someone does the work. Personally, I think its possible to build a 300 lb sportbike WITHOUT a huge investment in aerospace tech. I do expect it would cost more than the XB does now. Still, the TZ250 is a good target for a sportbike! 300 lbs & 90 hp would make one heck of a canyon strafer. | ||
| Diablobrian |
We were talking 1200cc not 250cc and we were talking street legal, and I believe it was assumed here in the states. If not, I apologize. After all the vr-1000 was street legal in some eastern block country, but that does not make it a relevant street bike. The cost of even semi-exotic materials, and the tooling to produce such (a 300lb 1200cc street bike) will be ultimately be paid for by the consumer. People are already complaining the XB line is over-priced, a large segment of potential customers that won't even consider the XB's at current prices. How can the BMC justify the expense of such a bike? also a 250 has little torque to worry about when it comes to drive components, therefore is able to implement different technologies. That isn't even taking into consideration the FEA tests and destructive (I mean durability) tests, FTSB approval, etc. This is not intended as a flame in any way. just a point by point discussion of manufacturing technologies as they relate to Buell construction. Just science based answers to questions posed on this thread. Your first 4 suggestions look good, and reasonably doable, albeit at a significant increase in price. I already mentioned that as a concern, so....moving on, 5. Your battery is already a gel-mat type and significantly smaller and lighter than lead-acid types. 6...not really viable on a street bike that is expected to last for thousands of miles without a tear-down for inspection. On a race bike it's a different thing. Also engine braking significantly increased by reduction in rotating mass on crank. Not always a good thing on a bike purchased by a fair number of novices. 8....that would be sweet, but once again you'd pay for increased tooling cost, and material cost. (I'm a machinists, I know) 9..mostly covered in #7. Lighter not always better on a street bike ridden by novices. 10. Not as durable (in a street application) with gridlock and prolonged idling a possibility. They are readily available in the aftermarket, but on an air-cooled bike, not ready for prime time with novice riders at the controls. with a knowlegable rider it's a different thing and I know it, please no flames on this one 11. torque is probably the problem here. aluminum deforms/wears quickly and drive line grit would quickly destroy any hard coating (like a belt-sander) bad pun, I know, leaving you with bikes broken down along side the road because the belt drive failed in death valley,In August. Unhappy owner? You betcha. and then some. 12. complete re-engineering of engine and chassis is all that would be needed. I'm sure the mother-ship wouldn't mind footing the bill. Hey Court, how long did initial design and testing take on the XB series in the first place? Oh, and how much did tooling cost? Be prepared to wait, BMC does not have the rescources for a 2 year turnaround, un-like Japan Inc. (edit) sorry reading over it this one came off as harsh. I just don't think H-D is getting the returns on their dollar they want as it is. they don't want to plow unlimited dollars into Buell. The stock-holders would go nuts! (end edit) 13. How much do you think you could hollow the shift drum before it deforms due to excessive force (and mechanical advantage) when shifting "in anger" I believe it is already made of hard plated aluminum. If you mean shift shaft, ask the first generation gsxr1k owners about broken shift shafts. 14. I think this one has been covered many times. due to cost and the fact that the inertia is in the linkage this one just doesn't pay off. At least not on a production street bike. 15. I'd LOVE to see a dual throat composite throttle body. That's one I think could have significant dollar and performance gains, for stock and modified bikes. }This is not intended as a flame in any way. just a point by point discussion of manufacturing technologies as they relate to Buell construction. Just science based answers to questions posed on this thread.} (Message edited by diablobrian on January 12, 2006) (Message edited by diablobrian on January 12, 2006) | ||
| Davegess |
You couldn't make a TZ250 street legal and stay under 300 pounds. Assuming that you mean pass EPA not sneak through your local cop shop inspection. Just the starter, battery and catalytic convertor would put you pretty close to 300, then you need all the insturments, lights, switch gear etc. Then you would neeed to figure out how much extra beef was needed so you wouldn't get buried under warrenty claims, I suspect the TZ does not have a one year 12000 mile warrenty. | ||
| Blake |
"How can the BMC justify the expense of such a bike?" By selling all of them?  | ||
| Diablobrian |
I know Blake, but they still have new 03's for sale in large part because of a perceived value:dollar deficit in the eyes of a large part of the target market. I have heard many times about an xb12 costing nearly as much as a gixxer 1k. | ||
| Benm2 |
Hmm. I've spent a bit of time working on a few of these items, so I think they're not as difficult as you might expect. I've got a 90% complete design for an Mg clutch cover, which I thought would be neat. A sand cast prototype (one part) would cost me over $1,000. But, the unit cost went down fast; it was down to single digits when I crossed over 100 units (bare castings). It really doesn't cost that much more than aluminum. FEA on a part where the loads are already known takes minutes. modeling, adding material, and re-running the program could be done several times in a single session at the PC. Other notes, gel-mat is still lead acid. Lead being the operative material. Li-Ion batteries have much higher power to weight ratios, but can't produce quite the same peak current. Hence, the combination with a perm-magnet starter that reduces the current required for developing the motors fields at low rpms (any real EE's feel free to jump in at any time). Compufire currently sells a perm-magnet starter that they market as higher powered & having lower current draw. To my mind, extra power in a starter is wasted if you don't need it; the starter should just be made smaller to take advantage of the magnets. As far as the Al primary & clutch baskets; yes they're probably race only. But the stock steel components CAN be made significantly lighter, without a lot of work. Its already a machined part; a few changes to the CNC code & you're all done! As far as the alternator goes, I've got three or four of them that make more power than the stockers (much to my surprise), and weigh half as much. They did not cost me thousands, either, even making them myself. Nicasil cylinders or they're equivalent are pretty much all that's left in the sportbike market. As far as the cams go, that was a bit of a reach based on a hypothesis I haven't tested. My suspicion is that the cams are designed to be cheap (not as in "cheap trash", but as in low manufacturing cost). I figger that the ends are designed to carry the bearing load based on area (oil film) and the weakest part of the cam is the gear teeth. Just from a basic tooth analysis, the teeth would fail waaaaay before any other part of the cam. Also, the bearing surface might be designed to hold the load at max lift, so at lower or no lift the bearings aren't loaded as high. So, they can take side loads. Replace the gear driven setup with small timing belts on aluminum sprockets. Just need to make sure the belts can take the oil. I know, its a reach. Pretty sure the shift drum is steel.... On the valves; its been stated in several places that the "important" part of valve control is the valve, the retainer, and part of the spring. Regardless of any RPM benefits that might be available, Ti valves are STILL a weight savings on the overall mass. Also of note, the Aprilia RS250 weighs 308 dry, and is/was street legal in "some countries". Had the lights & all, wasn't real good on emissions. TZ with a warranty?? | ||
| Jima4media |
No one has mentioned the idea of changing the V angle from 45 to 60 to 90. Bigger angle equals more air and fuel into the cylinders. | ||
| Diablobrian |
The problem with street bike overall is they have to be "over-engineered" to avoid recalls and warranty problems. ie. the clutch basket. they whittle them down until they fail and then build them back up a little. granted the torture tests they run are....agressive. I'm sure many of the parts are possible, but things like magnesium case covers have a habit of cracking in a tip over if they are light enough to be beneficial. maybe acceptable on a race bike, not at all acceptable on a street bike. I thought I recalled a horror-drama someone here had involving a shift drum that had been damaged by the shift forks. Locked up his tranny. (was that the_pup?) I thought it was clearly stated it was a hard anodized drum. I could be wrong. I've never held mine in my hands. {{Survey Says?}} lighter starters are ok as long as you don't run high compression. However, many of us do run exactly that. 14:1 is fairly common on top end modded Buells. The nicasil cylinders are found on bikes with water-jackets primarily. This keeps temps in a fairly stable temp range. Not a good idea if you might get stuck in grid-lock. It is generally accepted that there is room for improvement in the cam, valve train, and oil pump drive. Not saying it's not adequate, it's just not spectacular. It's still 50's tech, and it shows. the valve train debate has raged about everything from hydraulic lifters to push rod flex, rocker arm flex, etc etc. The consensus to this point has pretty much come down to the fact we won't gain perceptible benefit from ti valves/retainers/springs on an average street buell so the cost would be unjustified. "This has been a good conversation" I'm enjoying the discussion very much I hope you are too! | ||
| Blake |
"I know Blake, but they still have new 03's for sale in large part because of a perceived value:dollar deficit in the eyes of a large part of the target market." Right, cause there aren't ever any old model bikes sitting on the floor at my local Japan Inc shops.  You conveniently forget what Ducati, BMW, and Moto Guzzy sell their air cooled sport bikes for. Somehow though, one of the most innovative sport bikes on the market today is overpriced in comparison. If you want a Japan Inc repliracer, you are absolutely right. But that is the wrong market. Buell ain't interested in that market. That ain't the bike they are selling. Their market is up against the Duc M1000Ds and the BMW R1200S and the Guzzi V11 Sport, and now with the Uly the Multistrada, the R1150GS, the Caponord. And... for some folks the exclusivity and uniqueness and low maintenance and big bellering American V-Twin is worth EXTRA. It is to me. The bikes sell fine, when the dealership actually tries to sell them. Brian, More likely is that the shifter-forks suffer bending/damage, not the drum. The drum can wear over time though. If you think that a 14:1 CR is common on top-end modded Buells, you must live at the drag strip or something. I've never seen or heard of any street Buell with a 14:1 CR. It sure as heck isn't "common." What proportion of other than H-D/Buell motorcycles are not "water jacketed"? Even then, my Cyclone has nicasil cylinders. They work GREAT! In fact they work BETTER than the stock iron lined cylinders. At least for me. Mainly because I think the nicasil plating offers advantages and the OEM jugs sometimes get out of shape. What's wrong with the cam drive? They invented gears in 1950, but chains and belts are new technology?  I'd say a gear drive beats chain and belt in high tech factor. Anyway, we are talking about how to remove a bunch of weight from a Buell. Fun stuff. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I haven't forgotten what the cost of other (relatively) small manufacturers bikes. I was merely pointing out the fact Buell is trying to hit a price point so they can increase market share. It is common lore in japan inc circles that Buells are over priced. Not my my personal opinion, obviously, I bought a pretty expensive one-off Buell. Hal's first 03 xb1250. A few people on this board even rode my bike as a demo before i even saw it. value for the dollar....AMEN I have seen the light Brother Cleophus! I have damaged a few shifter forks in my day too, this particular one sounded odd to me for some reason. I'll have to hunt it down. Is it aluminum or steel though? Well, my bike runs that kind of compression, and I'd heard of several others running similar. Not a drag bike, but an honest (with dyno sheets in KV) 100rwhp xb9 stroker. I've heard of several people running 9 pistons in their 12 also and that puts them in similar territory (no cheap gas, that's for sure). I've not heard a lot of success stories with the nicasil jugs. I was lead to believe in real world applications it was not a good idea. I stand corrected.  That is not a bad thing, just gives me a start on where I'll go when this motor goes to valhalla. let's see bore the cases 1440 kit... There is nothing wrong with the cam drive, per se, it's what it drives that stands out as archaic compared to so much of the bike. The valve train is one of the major limiting factors of this engine design. reliable as an anvil, but ultimately kind of plain vanilla. overhead cams would be sweet, and I know the added revs come at a cost of added complexity, head height, and weight. The power increase should offset those factors. I don't foresee it happening in the next evolution, Daytona?? But maybe on the horizon. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I found what I was looking for. The drum is aluminum, at least in pre-06 xb's. Njbuell Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 01:39 am: ________________________________________ I am a technician at a local Harley/Buell dealer and I just finished up an 04 XB12R at work a couple weeks ago. I believe it belonged to LoneXB. Same problem. Turned out it was the shifter drum. It was very soft aluminum and was mashed between 1st and 2nd. Unfortunately, its a big job requiring engine removal and case splitting. The XB doesn't have the trap door like the sportsters did up until 04. Hope this helps. Phil |
