| Author | Message | ||
     Medic_2512 |
I could post replies because i was suspended by the administators. Blake, I want to appoligize if i offended anyone, i was just expressing my personal opinion after owning 4 Buells over the last 10 years. I currenty own an X1 and an XB12R as well as 4 other brands. The XB is my favorite and has many great features, but it does have a few areas that could be better like 25 more hp and another gear to give it more top speed. Am i bad guy for saying that? Buell customer service has been getting better. During the X1 years it was horrendous, just look at the number of recalls and problems encountered on the X1 files website. Buell corp. knows it has some issues with certain dealers thats why they`ve been reducing the number of dealerships steadily. A good thing. Owners of the XB have had great reliabilty with their bikes. But alot have had many problems just read the XB Board on your site. Me personally, my 04 XB has had 3 belts break, battery die, front wheel bearings replaced twice, front isolator replaced, had the TPS reset about 6 times and plugs fouled 4 times within the first year of ownership. Am i bad guy for saying this? In my particular case, not really the most reliable bike i`ve owned. Its still a cool bike though. Blake, You seem to be convinced reguarding how the non-stock muffler and the use of any other aftermarket can cause the motor to fail. I think that many people on this site are unaware of that and are at risk of damaging their Buell. Why don`t you require the Vendors who sell parts on this site, to clearly state that the Part that they are selling can void your warranty and possible cause damage to your bikes motor. Because again i think alot of owner are unaware of this. Thank you and its glad to be back! | ||
| Jak |
I think we should do the test. Blake, I see your words, but where do they come from? Did you work R&D at V&H??? | ||
| Blake |
Medic, You were not suspended, you simply were required to agree to abide by the board policy. There was absolutely no impediment to you rejoining the discussion. To imply so is inaccurate. Surveyor, "The successful development of any product is at least to some extent dependant on constructive criticism..." BINGO! What do you find "constructive" in the following?:
I'm not reacting to just this one instance. Medic has a history of crapping on Buell in a number of other threads, and once again he was not only off-topic crapping on Buell but waging personal attack. Please cease wasting my time trying to debate how this site is managed. Either post on-topic or just be quiet. Your choice.  Failure to heed this request may result in loss of posting privileges. It's that simple. On account of I would much rather spend time talking bikes, not dealing with criticism on how I or any other custodian sees fit to manage the site. If you don't like it, hit the road! Have a nice day.  (Message edited by blake on January 10, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Joshua (Jak), I'd prefer to not debate me in this topic. If however you have questions about any of the information I've presented related to the topical issue, please feel free to ask and I'll be happy to respond. Other than a BSME and an intense interest in the science of internal combustion spark ignition engines, I have no unique qualifications. | ||
| Blake |
Medic, Last warning. Stick to the topic or be quiet. "Because again i think alot of owner are unaware of this." Then they have not read the terms of their warranty and don't understand the *possible* detrimental effects that a performance exhaust may have on their engine. Buyer beware. It's that simple. The warranty for a motorcycle is for the motorcycle as purchased. Period. Modify it significantly and have problems attributable to the modification and guess what? No warranty coverage. (Message edited by blake on January 10, 2006) | ||
| Dana P. |
Hmmm!!! Funny I look at this as a debate not trolling. One disagreeing with another about what a exhaust will and will not do. Nothing more nothing less. | ||
| Glitch |
Jarrod, or whom ever you are. That's uncalled for. 1)Without Blake, there is no BaWeB 2)Without you the BadWeB is without you 3)False information on your profile is grounds for banning 4)Creating an ID for making one comment is a waste of time and childish 5)If you don't like it, leave Kilgore, Amsterdam, or where ever you are, we'll be glad not to see you post in a less than friendly way again. This matter is closed. Stay on topic, or stay gone. | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Glitch. | ||
| Glitch |
 | ||
| Blake |
Thank you too Dana. Your support means a lot. The offending post has been removed. The troll seems to think that BadWeB activity is declining? He's obviously one of those alternate reality folks. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Getting back on topic and thanking Blake and Glitch, I think that over the next few months we can have some very good discussions on both intake and exhaust systems. The new tools available to riders tuners and techs are going to allow us to use good data to get some answers. As part of what Al and I are working on I did the following test. I installed just the "Open Air Box Kit" (without any ECM mods) rode the bike watching the A/F readout. Within two miles I got so concerned about how lean it was (15.5 to 16.5) I returned to the shop and reinstalled the airbox but still used the K&N, better but still way too lean (14.7 to 16.0.) Back to stock and all is well The next step will be a short trip with stock Intake but just the Micron. ... My point in doing this was as a tuner I need to know how lean, lean is and we all need to know what to expect when we hear that someone has taken off down that road. ... More data next week after the micron only. ... PS don't be concerned I am watching as I ride at 35 to 40 MPH and only going a few miles in both closed and open loop. When the AFV hits 16+ or so I crack the throttle which dumps fuel as most of the open loop cell are rich at the lower RPMs. ... Terry | ||
| Skully |
Terry - Excellent! Thanks, Keith | ||
| Xring |
Terry, Are you allowing the ECM to adapt to the modifications, or would that not apply? Doesn't it take some operating time before the ECM will adapt and (possibly) add more fuel? I'd love to add an A/F ratio gauge just for fun and see how much adaptation takes place over time with various mods. Thanks, Bill | ||
| Glitch |
Doesn't it take some operating time before the ECM will adapt and (possibly) add more fuel? At about 3500rpm+ for about 10 minutes is all it takes. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I knew that in closed loop it was so far off and the next two miles would all have been in CL going up a grade I just didn't want to take the chance. We use that grade to set the AFV on test rides. I think it would have driven the AFV up into the 120% range and at our elevation a set AFV is around 102% or so. ... Terry | ||
| Xring |
Ah...the voice of experience. Thanks, Terry. | ||
| Richardcronrath |
I have so much to say about the topic, that it would take me a week to explain. For starters I have to say that Blake and Steve are right and wrong, I spend almost every day recording how a exhaust effects the intake and efficiency with a air turbine. I spent a lot of time developing the Micron Exhaust, since I have a pile of them sitting here before they were released( from what I was told ) I can tell you that the exhaust for the money is the best I have seen so far and it works be with a STOCK ECU and a K&N Filter. Before I get involved, because I don't have the time. I will say that changing a exhaust or anything for that matter DOES NOT effect the fuel curve until you change it. I get motors in every week all blown up because someone changed something without changing what ECU is telling the FUEL system to do. Any fuel injected engine it very sensitive to ANY change even a gasket. I have seen A/F ratios change on a BONE Stock bike because you removed the intake and change gaskets and did not line it up the same. The O2 circuit on the Buell ECU changes fuel in a linear only manner. If the ECU at 3500rpm reads a lean condition its going to apply the corrected amount of fuel to the whole rpm range. The O2 will only work within a certain rate of change also, so if you put on a none linear exhaust you will have xtream rich and lean conditions. The exhaust being changed directly affects the amount of intake charge pulled into the cylinder(why carbs work so well) and if you want to label this with something you could call it back pressure. I worked for Porsche building 1000hp engines and I can tell you the single largest thing that effects a motor is the location and dimensions of the collector. I purchased a very expensive program years ago that provides me with the effects of pressure waves in the intake, which is affected by the exhaust. The bottom line is I have a crap load of exhausts here all makes and models. I have yet tested a pipe that averages more power from start to finish then the Micron. | ||
| Blake |
That is saying a lot! Thanks Richard. Hope to see you at Daytona in a couple months. | ||
| Jerseyguy |
Rich - Have you had the opportunity to test a Drummer or Drummer SS? | ||
| Fulgur |
Sorry all, had to just put in my 2 pence. This is all just from my experience no disagreements or attacks. 1. I would love to see some real data on differant setups. 2. I know carbs better than our new fangled computers, and for years whenever I have changed a pipe or just an end can I would have to re-tune the carbs, some just a tweek on the pilot system others needed jets, needles etc changing. I know you can get away with not doing this on a Harley and many don't bother but lets do a job right yeh. 3. Buell have been great to me. 4. My local Harly dealer is a bunch of nice chaps and girls and probably the best in Belgium I have found but the only time they even get a smell of my bike (XB12R) is for a TPS zero and I am breathing down their neck all the time. I am not trusting for good reasons by the way, I have fixed loads of bikes that so called pro chimps have screwed up. 90% of all the rest don't like Buell bikes, owners, etc period. 5. I tossed my warrenty as soon as I left the dealer and I have never had a fault with it. I do all my own work. I know two other chaps who do all there own work on their Buells and also have never had a fault. The only Buell owners I know that have had to put in warrinty clames (and these chaps have had a quite a few) have run the engine in as per the manual and had the dealer (note Harley dealers) do all the services and work. Coincidence????????. (I know that there are good dealers too.) 6. I love my Buell. I now mesure "performance" on the amount of bugs on my teeth and not how much RWHP I can't use off a dry track. 7. I like just about all bikes (including Harleys). 8. and last for now. From my experience I have to agree with Blake. I don't know every equation that goes into blowing stuff up inside a pot. BUT. whenever I have ever changed anything on or in an exhoust system (or any other engine mod) It has changed the A/F mix at least somewhere in the RPM range, even if it is by a small amount. .........cheers to you all for the interesting discution......Fulgur. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Wow! You will fit *right* in around here! Great post! | ||
| Kds1 |
I'm gonna get in on the tail of this thing, I don't know why but I can't help but to say, this is why I made the Drummer design to work with the existing map and compensation already programmed into the race ecm....it cuts through the worrying....put it on , plug it in and go...now you can spend your time enjoying your buell and still make linear power doing so...science is cool and it's fun looking for rocks, but I'm going riding....  www.kdfab.com Kevin | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
I am not too sure anyone has said that a slip on won't work well with a "Race ECM." But it's a slip on, not a full system with stepped headers. Even if one is not racing, as soon as you install those Stage 3 Heads and Red Shift 585-V2 cams, there is a need for exhaust tuning. Pipes such as a Ti Force, Micron, or Reinhart, running up to red line may need additional fuel curve work, at those RPMs not covered by the Race ECM. There may also be a need to pull a little out in a few cells here and there. ... Terry | ||
| Kds1 |
Terry, I realize that you have alot of experience with stuff....this is what i done last year...Neil Taylor that builds Don's race engines, Don Tilley, wanted to see what i could do with their race bike with my ( slip-on)...so we took the bike and dynoed it with the Rhinehart stepped header, equal length, all that stuff....then Don walked in and said , " what are you going to do with this stock header?" This will never work, that's why we designed the system....so Neill and i put it on anyway because i told him that you don't really need the header stepped, he said yeh right...so we stretched the stock 12 header apart to fit the cylinder spread of the 1350 and put my slip-on on the bottom and it bolted up just like factory....I built the muffler for a 1350 with high compression, it's not the regular muffler that i make for the 9 or the 12, it's specifically for the engine size...it made 2hp more on the dyno with the map that is tuned for the Rhinehart ( system) than the (system ) made with it's own tuned map....I know it's only 2 hp, but it gained from idle to redline, not just one little peak...so I'll say this publicly, it may not be any better, but it sure wasn't any worse....no steps, no tuned length, the header even came off a production Buell....the header is not the problem, it's the silencer....the larger the tube, the slower the air speed....I'm not a scientist or have no background in it, I did graduate college with a degree, that doesn't matter, but i spent 9yrs watching what the engine responds to and applied it to my design.... Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Drift |
And it works.... | ||
| Sokota |
and it works....very well. (Message edited by sokota on January 13, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
BTW Kevin... I just picked up a stock header. I fully expect it to work better than the Force header... even with the Force "muffler". I'll be running the Drummer because I NEED chin spoiler mounts on a racetrack, and because it makes more power than the Force pipe anyway. This whole exhaust thing costs a good deal of money ... even with good people doing what they can for me. By the time I get done though... I'll have a good collection of PCIII maps . I sure hope I'll be able to convert them to direct link maps . | ||
| Jerseyguy |
Yes it does. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Kevin I have no issue with what you have done or how you did it. I also believe that the guys that are using your muffler are very satisfied with the results. No one can get as many happy customers as you have without doing it right. I just get concerned (not about your post or muffler) when the talk is of a magic pill that fixes all. I have come to believe that it is about balance be it intake or exhaust and it takes a lot of hard work to get is all right. Now having said that I also believe you have done a great deal of work on the original Drummer and the new SS. I have no doubt that they work well with the Race ECM. ... One of these days we will get one out here and I am sure I will get the same results you have. ... Terry | ||
| Kds1 |
Terry, It's not a magic pill at all...it's a variable that has to be controlled more than all the others thats all....once you learn what it is, add it, take it away, then you can think other than what we have been taught over the years.....there is always a better way, you have to be as OCD as I am and simple to find out sometimes....It's all good though, I've learned alot from alot of people over the years, but the one thing that taught me what I know, is the v-twin engine hanging in the bike.....The Wright Brothers never left the ground till they threw the book away....I do want to say a positive thing about you as well.....I've been following your dyno testing and I like the way you do your testing, I was happy to see on the dyno runs more than just run #3...that shows to me that you are serious about what you are doing....for 2 yrs I tested on the road in real world conditions with all kinds of equipment before I ever went to the dyno, then I took all my designs till I found the right combo then tested them all back to back until I figured out what was making the linear power curve.....maybe in the future I can find a way to get to your state and I can bring a few things that we can test... Kevin www.kdfab.com |
