| Author | Message | ||
     Martya |
ooh!, can see that touched a raw nerve with you blake, ref neutron21's comment's. before i start i have to say i'm a big jap bike fan, but his statement on jap's being "updated and bettered" has to be explained, especially the bettered, newer tech yes. better? not necessarily. a uk magazine took two R6 yamaha's and basically detuned the one motor for more bottom end and midrange power (thundercat spec), the result was that all but one rider (cant remember how many rode the bike) preferred the detuned bike. also ask the owner's of the latest VFR honda whether their variable cam timing's a step forward from the old fixed cam timing ?, especially when they get a bill from the dealer for 800 buck's for setting the clearances(uk mag article). the latest R6 is quoted as having 127bhp @17500rpm (133 with air induction) 50ft pounds of torque at 14500 for what?, a pi**in contest between the factories. reliability?, who care's, remember it wasn't too many years ago most rides would involve some sort of wrenching along the way (brit bikes anyone?). remember biking's about having fun, and being individual. so if i have to suffer a bit of downtime along the way so be it. } | ||
| Neutron21 |
i love how us buell owners do that. when someone writes buells are underpowered and have nothing on an R6 or R1 we all say " hey they are not repli's and they are not designed to compete with repli's" But then when we want to compare reliability and service costs we quote the attention repli's need. martya the repli's have that much power at that many revs for one reason, competing in supersport and superbike. they are that fast and that powerful to win races. Superbike and world supersport rules stipulate that you must repeat must sell the bike at production levels to compete. Thats why they have that much performance and that much cutting edge technology. blake if you think that buell has less warranty issues per capita then the jap equals then you are only fooing one person. yes alot of jap bikes have cat converters but that is so they can comply with USA and more importantly californian emmission laws. They are designed to meet alot of emmission laws and usa is but one. buell is obviously USA made so it begins with that as a criteria. Not sure what you are getting at with that comment. Im sure any manufacturer including buell would love to make a bike as free of emmission and polution gear as they can to make the bike run to its full potential. blake your commitment and steadfast belief that buells are great and perfect is commendable but to believe that jap and european bikes in a similar genre are not powered by engines that are more refined, have increased technology and are as fuel efficient as buells 50 year old plant is at best misguided. A motor that has to be worked and upsized from 984cc to almost 1450cc to compete with ducati's 748cc V-twin is a handycap on ducati's design and engineering to say the least. Yes ducati's 748 and 999 in a street version need constant attention and service, but can you say that a buell 984 working at the same performace output as a ducati 999 engine would be reliable and a daily ridden go to work and home bike? doubt it. having worked as a dealer from the late 90's and early 2000 i can say that buell is the only bike i have had my life threatened over with regard to recalls and warranty issues. the same buell mo co that was basically gone in the late 90's due to the problems with tube frame series that was until HD bailed them out. the same buells that we replaced cracked frames on, broken engine mounts, bubbled tank stickers due to poor tank venting, leaking motors from the factory, snapped belts on models less then 1000 miles old, regulators that constantly blow, front disk brake with the bobbles that constantly wear and need replacing every few thousand miles, blown clutch's, snapped footpegs, poor electrics and let us never speak of the disaster that was and is the blast. and this year buell is touting that the new XB has an easy pull clutch and a gearbox that can change gears like a jap bike. OK change gears like a jap bike, it only took buell over 4 years to get the XB engine to shift like a jap bike. well thats my opinion, im sure blake and others will have there opinions and thats fine, but im right and if i was wrong buell would out sell the jappers in the same competition bracket and they dont so im right. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Sure, you have a right to your opinion. No one has to agree though, do they? I absolutely agree with some of what you say. But I'll tell ya one thing. I wouldn't trade my Buell or Ducati for one of those Jap cookie cutter bikes if ya paid me. That's my opinion and many others on this board, and I expect you to respect that as I have your opinion. Ya know the saying, opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one....... | ||
| Thin_air |
I have heard that riding a rice burner is allot like putting the meat to your sister. I kinda feels ok, just nothing you can be proud of or want to tell your friends about.  | ||
| Neutron21 |
nah i dont expect everyone to agree and if everyone did the world would be a boring place. and buells are fantastic bikes and yes the japs are cookie cut mass produced, the european bikes are not but that is another issue. | ||
| Aldaytona |
If you think Buells are quirky (which by the way isn't a bad thing) try to start a new BMW. | ||
| Court |
Wow......niether totally disagree with everything you said, nor have time to take'em one at a time. Basically, I think you are right on two points and living in a dream world on the rest. The part about emission, CA and Harley-Davidson bailing Buell relates to reality about the way Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is the medical tretise on stunted growth. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Rofl. Say what you will about Buell vs. Duc or Jap bikes. Bottom line is I ride to have fun, and my Ducati was just not much fun at all. And it was in the shop 3 times in 3000miles. My Buell now has center stage all alone in my garage, with only my dirt bike to keep it company on a cold night. The Ducati went bye-bye and its footnote in my personal history is that of a $16,500 mistake. my .02 | ||
| Hippo888 |
In my experience with BMWs and Ducatis, the late-model XB series has better quality than either of the Europeans. I've noticed Japanese quality has suffered in the last several years. 3 out of 4 of my last Japanese bikes had coolant issues. My made-in-the-USA Goldwing has had something like 17, 18 or 19 TSBs/recalls (there have been so many, I've lost count). Even the stuff made-in-Japan, like my old ST1300 has had multiple recalls. I'd place my XB9S ownership experience above the Europeans and even with that of the made-in-USA Goldwing, but below that of the made-in-Japan, Japanese bikes. In my experience regarding performance, GIVEN EQUALLY SKILLED RIDERS, a modern Japanese liter bike will absolutely destroy any Buell on the street or the track. But it really comes down to rider skill. Even in absolute terms, Buells are pretty damn slow compared to what's coming out from Japan. In a straight line, XBs are more comparable to a SV650 than any of the in-line 600s or 1000s. Which makes the bang-for-the-buck financial equation with the Buells equivalent to that of the European bikes. However, I miss my XB9S. I've got a GSXR1000 sitting in the garage with 750 miles. It's just boring as a street bike (and I prefer my 600 on the track). It breaks every speed limit in the USA at 40% of redline. The Buell is a more involved ride. The Buell reinforces the experience of riding -- the "romance" of velocity, wind and freedom. On the other hand, the Japanese sportbikes have a riding experience that is more technical, more precise and more akin to racing. When I get off the Japanese sportbikes, I want to check the lap-timer. When I get off a Buell I've just had some simple, honest fun. It's a completely different "feel". Both have their places and I don't think one is intrinsically better than the other. If the finances allow next season, I think I'm going to use the GSXR as a back-up bike for the track and get a XB12X or XB12Ss for the street. (Message edited by hippo888 on November 26, 2005) (Message edited by hippo888 on November 26, 2005) (Message edited by hippo888 on November 26, 2005) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Hippo, the reasons why I sold my FZR. I just didn't ride it anymore after I got my City X. The japs make race bikes. Buell makes street bikes. I ride on the street. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Word | ||
| Martya |
i totally agree with everything that's been said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. apart from thin_air's sister comment!.  | ||
| Blake |
What happened to the original thread?   Anyway, Steve (Neutron21), I listed some very specific attributes of the Buell engine that I consider a result of more advanced and more elegant design/engineering than the engines you choose to characterize as better or more modern or whatever you claimed. A catalytic converter is a band aid to meet anti-ollution requirments. Buells don't need the band-aid cause their engine is more advanced and better engineered. Other motorcycle engines do need them because they are not as well engineered. They are not as efficient. They pollute a lot more. Some other motorcycle engines require a radiator and water pump and a bunch of plumbing because they cannot manage to stay cool enough without them. Some other motorcycle engines require four valves per cylinder and chain driven cams and four cylinders and a rev range well into five fugures before reaching peak HP because they prefer complexity and peak HP racing performance over simplicity and low maintenance. I find that approach terribly inferior for my street bike. I've listed a number of characteristics, you respond with bold baseless claims and opinion. Fine. You have your opinion. What Court said is pretty darn where I stand with respect to your opinion. If you want to join the Japan Inc cheerleading club to help spread their factory marketing hype that displacement should be the only factor meriting consideration in the comparison of sport bike engine performance, please, there are other sites for that. This ain't one of them. | ||
| Blake |
Martya, Well said! Thank you.  | ||
| Neutron21 |
"A catalytic converter is a band aid to meet anti-ollution requirments. Buells don't need the band-aid cause their engine is more advanced and better engineered." lol Thats one of the most simplistic and factless statements ever made. catalytic converters are designed to convert hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides. Considering that (CO)emissions are altered by fuel calibration, engine size and power and (NOx) emissions are increased by higher rates of acceleration and higher top speeds. many factors that european and japanese large capacity engines exploit. You could not possibly compare the emissions of a big bang inline four or v-twin with the buell sportster engine. Of course if you selected a japanese or european bike of similar engine performance to the buell 1200cc. say a 4 cylinder 400cc japanese bike you would find that the emissions of the japanese engine is far lower then a buell and most japanese and european bikes under 600cc have no need for catalytic converters much like the buell. As for all your comments related to water cooling, chain driven cams and so on, you are waffling and defending the status quo. Those designs and technology are the attempt of engineers to try and develop better engines, cleaner engines and more fuel efficient engines. Granted some ideas are a step back and some are a step forward its all about trial and error. Some of these ideas you are so afraid of are now used on the buell such as fuel injection. I am a cheerleader of all clubs jap, american, european and i can respect each industry's approach to engine design. my mind is not closed to technology and advancements. I hope one day buell can engineer a motor worthy of the XB chassis design. | ||
| Martya |
wow!, can see this is an touchy subject!, well, even if eric (buell) had the money to develop a "hi-tech" motor for the XB then i for one would respect that, but i personally wouldnt buy one. one of the reason's that i bought the buell is the fact that the motor's old school. (50 yr's old it maybe, but it's proven!) i also like the idea that i dont have to ride 10/10's to have fun riding it. to design a compact motor V2 (ducati 749-999)to fit the XB would be difficult physically, and with weight penalties. i can only guess that under slung exhaust, belt drive, 250GP steering would all be out the window (UK bike magazine voted it top steering bike out of 70+ other bikes). as far as emissions go, both you guy's need to take a reality check, bike emission's?. have you ever watched a 777' or a 747 take off?. bike emission's are the last thing we should be worried about with all the other BIG s**t cranking up out their. like i said before, i love all bikes (apart from the indian built enfield)but my money went on a buell, i could have bought a duc, or suzuki GSXR1000 (current sportbike daddy). but no, it went on a bike I WANTED, not what's at the top of the current marketing trend. | ||
| Martya |
foot note to my last post, (a)if i bought the duc, iwould have fun for 30 min's and then be a grumpy cripple! (b)if i bought the gixxer, well i'd probably either be dead or in jail for excessive speed. | ||
| M2nc |
Why do we walk down this path? Harley proved twenty years ago that Hi-Tech does not make a profitable motorcycle company. The reason that Harley went from near extinction to the most profitable motorcycle company in the world in the last 25 years is they did not listen to the Jap hype of speed makes a motorcycle better. Harley as a company tipped their skull cap to the Japs years ago and said no, you can have the speed, we will make better street machines because they're not a precision tool. The Japs responded by stating the air cooled V-twin was dead back in the Seventies. So who was right? Well I don't see Harley making knock off CBRs, need I say more. So along comes Buell Motorcycles. Are they as fast as the Japs, nope, so why are sales increasing every year for Buell? Simple, they dealt with the quality issues of the tubers with the XBs, and they built street sport bikes that are fun to ride at legal speeds. Also Harleys do not handle well enough for European taste, so for them the Buell is the Harley answer to their customer demand (Since most Buells are sold in Europe). The XBs in general have done well, but now with the Ulysses on the market, many will take notice. If Buell continues to make more mainstream motorcycles like this one, watch out. I have to admit that I still want a Super Sport for track duty. Since I have not been on a track yet, and really do not want to spend the money on suits, track admission, bike (though the M2 would do fine) I spent my money on street bikes and so I have Buells in barn. It works for me, maybe not for you and that's okay. (For the record, even the V-twin Jap bikes have to have Cats to make them street legal in the US so the argument that HP is the reason is not holding water. 40hp 800cc V-twin Kawis, Suki, Hondas have Cats now. Harley decided they did not want Cats so they engineered the bikes around it.) | ||
| Wsplrll |
I posted this under another ( archived ) thread. I am looking for input. I am looking at getting a new XB9sx. It was a "demo" - runs great when I tested it. It now has about 100 miles on it. 7695.00 + T&T - I need to get the select seat too since the stock pushes me into the airbox. The only thing I am wondering about is not knowing how it was ridden those first 90 or so miles. One of the sales guys told me he loved the bike when he rode it. He didn't realize he had it over 100mph! So it made me think - if maybe I should just buy a bike with no miles so I can break in in? This one is a great deal btw. If I don't get this one I will probably get an 06 SV650. ( No Miles) Not sure what to do. | ||
| Hippo888 |
Wsplrll, Make sure the bike has not gone down. Check all the likely contact points with the ground (handlebar ends, turn signals, engine cases, exhaust, swing arm, forks, etc.). 100 miles wouldn't bother me if the bike is undamaged AND they gave me enough money. I'd also hit them up for an extended warranty (I think Buell has an offer going on right now -- maybe they can extend the duration?). | ||
| Blake |
You are wrong again, and again horribly so. Concerning your ridiculous claim of comparable performance from a 400cc Japanese motorcycle... The Suzuki SV 650 underperforms in terms of HP when compared to even a Buell XB9, compared to a Buell XB12 it isn't close, almost 30 HP off. All Suzuki SV650's require catalytic converters in order to meet the new strict anti-pollution regulations. Furthermore, most of the polution regulations are written to limit undesirable emissions in terms of parts per million (PPM) or to a maximum allowed percentage compared to total emissions. So for meeting those pollution regulations there is zero advantage for a lower-powered engine as it is not the raw total amount of pollutants that is limited, but their percentage wrt overal exhaust emissions. Also I believe I am being accurate in stating that the anti-pollution regulations and for sure the tests which we must submit our vehicles to are not so concerned with max power or full throttle performance, but are concerned almost entirely with emissions at steady cruising speeds. In short, you are horribly mistaken in your assertions and your "facts" could use some rechecking. It is a fact that Buell motorcycles by virtue of their superior engine efficiency and better, more sophisticated EFI systems simply don't need the band-aid of catalytic converters in order to meet teh strictest anti-pollution requirements. The Buell engines simply do not spew excessive unburned hydrocarbons or other noxious pollutants like almost all other motorcycle engines do. Even the big air-cooled Harley-Davidson motorcycles are now using catalytic converters. They don't use the Buell DDFI system. The whole emissions issue though is only one small part of the picture that tells me that the Buell engine is indeed superior in many ways to those engines which you deem better and more advanced. Your view is simply a reflection of the Japan Inc marketing hype, a campaign of hype which has be unbelievably successful. Ever wonder why automobiles don't follow suit with the Japan Inc hype of smaller higher revvving engines are better and more advanced? Because in the real world, off the race track, they simply don't perform as well, they are inferior. Why not make a 1.2L V-8 with stroke and bore equal to that of the Japanese 600cc repliracers? Answer: Because in the real world, such an engine would be horrible. In the real world, most folks agree that having to rev an engine to 13,000 rpm to reach its peak performance is ridiculous. In the real world, most folks prefer an engine that makes its power down around 7,000 rpm or even less. Like I said, if you define high tech or better or more modern solely based on peak HP and engine displacement, that is your opinion. I happen to consider such a view extremely narror-minded. I happen to have a much different view of what constitutes high-tech, better, and more modern in a motorcycle engine design. But I use a heck of a lot more than just peak HP per cubic centimeter as my metric. I use engine efficiency, reliability, power delivery, ease of maintenance, simplicity, and yes even appearance and sound. For me an engine with hydraulic lifters, a ducted computer-controlled multi-speed forced-air cooling system, gear driven cams, just one (Thumper salute ) or two cylinders, only two valves per cylinder, a single throttle body, no water pump or radiator or associated plumbing, that is by far more advanced street bike engine to the mind of this mechanical engineering professional than a 600cc race-bred engine that needs to spin to above 12,000 rpm before making comparable power. Your view is that it is more advanced to add a bunch more cylinders and valves and throttle bodies that require periodic adjustment, to use a wildly oversquare configuration with miniscule stroke length such that stratospheric engine speeds are needed all just to make more power. My view is that it is more elegant and advanced to eliminate as much periodic maintenance as possible (valves, throttles, liquid coolant), to eliminate as much complexity as possible (cylinders, valves, throttles, cam chain, cam chain tensioner, water pump, radiator, plumbing, catalytic converters, air-injection...) and to achieve as much efficiency (65 mpg) as possible in an engine that provides good performance (103 BHP). | ||
| Wsplrll |
Hippo - No the bike hasn't been down. It looks like new. It was demoed though ( just like they let me ride it as a demo which some dealers shy away from ) . I know the price 7695 ( with no additional charges is as low as they will go. I tried to get them to switch it to Kick Ash black but they would only discount the parts. Probably no extended warranty either although it comes with 2 year unlimited. But all in all 1200.00 off list and no prep or freight is decent price I think? | ||
| Light_keeper |
"and let us never speak of the disaster that was and is the blast." Why not speak of it? I don't have any problems with it. It runs well, gives me plenty of real world on street fun just as it was designed for. Gets good gas mileage and I haven't been left behind in a group ride yet. Where is Falconbridge SW?  | ||
| M1combat |
How many "modern" Corvettes have finished 1-2-3 at Le-Mans with archaic pushrod engines? Dodge Vipers? Panoz Esperantes? Which engine pushed it's car to a 7:40 at the Nurburgring? The Ferrari 550 Maranello or the '06 Z06? No... It wasn't a Honda S2000, an R34 Skyline or a Supra . Thank you... Drive through. Do you realize that the XB12 is within a few pounds of the best IL4 sportbikes the Japanese can make? Do you realize that the XB powerplant is 50lbs HEAVIER than their water cooled power plants? Do you realize that means the XB frame is 50 pounds lighter than the BEST frame the Japanes are producing? We don't even NEED as much power and we ALREADY handle better. I'm really not trying to just bash on the japanese bikes. Really. It's just that street riding is different from riding on a racetrack. The XB is built for the street and it IS a superior bike on tight, technical, twisty mountain roads. That's where my XB has spent a little less than half of it's 18K total miles. It does VERY well against Japanes bikes of ANY displacement thank you very much. There aren't enough straight sections on my favorite road for power to be of any use at all. There are two sections where I can exit a turn at 65 and make it to about 103 before I NEED to shut her down and start praying. The IL4 1000's get to about 120 but they hit their brakes earlier and I make the ten feet they gained on me within five corners. There's another 50 corners after that, then the road gets pretty straight for about six miles. At that point they steal my lunch and RUN AWAY and HIDE. I don't EVER see them again (unless they're splayed out on the hood of a cop car getting a free ride). I don't mind that in the least. I always wave when I go by. | ||
| Wsplrll |
Yeah - what about the Blast? I have an 04 ( with appropriate minor mods ) and I love the bike. I will probably keep it even though I am in the market for a new bike. Very under-rated and under appreciated bike IMHO. | ||
| Wsplrll |
"I'd also hit them up for an extended warranty (I think Buell has an offer going on right now -- maybe they can extend the duration?)." I just read on buell.com there IS an extended warranty for all 05 and 06 untitled models going on now. That might just seal the deal ! Stay tuned | ||
| Wsplrll |
Update I think it is only offered until 03/31/2008 * i.e. 4 extra months if bought today. Better than nothing. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I love it when the topic of engines comes up! Neutron, consider this. One particular Italian manufacturer builds engines VERY similar to the Buell engines. They are both air cooled, and within a gnats-••• of being identical in displacement. (about 990 cc) They produce almost identical amounts of horsepower, torque, and rpm. Ducati is the company in question here. Do you think, if ducati could, that they would build an engine with all the characteristics listed above, BETTER than they can now, and better than Buell? OF COURSE they would! This shows how advanced these engines really are! Ducati can't build the same thing better. Would you consider Ducati as having 'cutting edge technology'? You bet I would. | ||
| Neutron21 |
blake just so you know i had a quick glance at your response and about 4 words in i realised that i no longer had the attention span to bother reading it and have decided to take my indian out for a ride and get the wind in my hair. yeah i have 2 american machines and 4 japanese machines, i know the jap engines are superior and equally as fun but if your in denial then no one can help you but you. have fun writing a 50 page response while you are i will be burnin rubber and polluting the environment. | ||
| Redstar100 |
my understanding is that when you fit the race kit and in particular the race ecm the bike is then outside of the emission standards. buddy of mine had his xb epa tested because of noise level and they did a smog check on the bike it had race kit and failed miserably he had to put the standard parts on to reduce the noise and fix the emissions problems. once he returned it to stock it passed both checks. |
