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Neutron21
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 07:16 pm: | 
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Blake the japanese bikes are leaps and bounds ahead of the new buells. lets not forget that the jap bikes have modern engines that are in constant development and are constantly being revised updated and bettered. with this in mind any manufacturer is going to have occassional hiccups and problems. Unlike buell that has a motor that is basically 50 years old and they still cant get it right on occassions.
lets also remember that the japanese machines are produced in the hundreds of thousands, compared with buells few thousand. Would you like to compare warranty to production numbers and then say that the buells are as reliable as anything else.
per capita i know that buells have far more warranty issues then jap bikes. sure as time goes on the buells get better but when you only produce under 10,000 bikes a year you really have no excuse for warranty issues. now i love my buell as much as anyone but you must be jesting when you say they are as reliable as the japper competition. |
Buellenator
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 07:25 pm: |
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I'll be more worried about having a good dealer close by when you need one. The XBs are fine bikes, but dealer support are sometimes not. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 07:46 pm: |
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Hey Buellenator, you from NW Arkansas? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 09:52 pm: |
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"Blake the japanese bikes are leaps and bounds ahead of the new buells."
That is horribly inaccurate information.
I've never been sold by the Japan Inc marketing hype that more HP translates to more "modern" or "better". Not sure what is new in the Japan Inc. engines that is so revolutionary compared to the ocverhead cam engines HD was racing back in the 1920's. I guess if you define having four times the valves/springs/retainers/seats, all of which requires regular adjustment, twice as many cylinders, four times the throttle bodies, all of which require periodic synchronization, a cam drive chain instead of gears, a water pump and the plumbing to support it, big ugly radiator, inferior fuel efficiency, and catalytic converters in order to meet pollution requirments... if that is what you want to call "more modern" or "better" that is obviously merely your personal opinion, which I might add is in direct agreement with the marketing hype being peddled by Japan Inc. Mine view is a bit different.
"per capita i know that buells have far more warranty issues then jap bikes."
Concerning the XB's and Blasts, I know for a fact that you are mistaken.
Not sure what production quantities do to support or refute your view. Not sure any Japanese Inc model/platform of motorcycle is produced in quantities that significantly exceed those of the Buell line. Sure add up all the Gold Wings, and Repliracers and cruisers and scooters and dirtbikes, but HD builds the engines. Pretty sure they build more Sportster/Buell platform engines than any Japan Inc motorcycle engine platform.
Hmmm, just joined yesterday. Welcome to the board. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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I have one of those old Tubers (98 S1W) that I bought last year with 9,000 miles. 99% of the recall work was done before I purchased it. I now have over 23,000 miles on it. The only problems to date are; a very minor leak on the cases near the oil filter, lost the bezel that holds the trip reset knob, the exhaust heat shield came apart at one mounting point and the rear shock leaks a little.
But man what a fun bike to ride!!! |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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>>>"Blake the japanese bikes are leaps and bounds ahead of the new buells."
"per capita i know that buells have far more warranty issues then jap bikes."
I believe both those statements are inaccurate. But, I am listening. I'd like to hear the basis for them, if you can provide it. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:56 pm: |
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By the way, I am willing to concede that the diparity in numbers produced make statistics easy to "skew".
For instance, the Honda recalls on JUST the Goldwings, produced in huge number, would require ALL Buell XB's ever manufactured have warranty issues just to get in the running with Honda.
A component of the bright light that shines on Buell is, admittedly, the numbers in which Buells are produced. When 100,000 Goldwings are recalled. . . well, think, I'll allow you your "per capita" (essentially, units recalled per 100 built). . . now think about that for a moment.
Buell derives a huge advantage by virture of there "proven bulletproof in real world service" as well. In addition, in the "warranty $$ per unit", let's face it Buell didn't suffer much from recalling 250 XB's for kickstand bolts that cost $2.49 each to replace. Stack that against a signle Goldwing frame and you see where the numbers are gonna take you.
Again, I am willing to listen with an open mind. |
Cochise
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
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I, for one, would like the Pros of Buell reliability and the Cons of Jap Bike reliability. The reason why is I am always defending my purchase of my XB. I KNOW THAT IS A REDICULOUS STATEMENT, but you have to know that I ride with folks who are always telling me what a peice of sheet my bike is, and ask why the Heck I would buy one (3) instead of buying a Jap bike. I am getting tired of telling people the reason I own a Buell is because I want to be different. 
(Message edited by cochise on November 25, 2005) |
Jak
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 01:15 am: |
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Nicely said Cochise. Hey, did you ever see a picture in the paper from the Poker Run? Just so I'm not considered a highjacker I'll give my two cents: I like motorcycles... |
Cochise
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 01:18 am: |
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No Jak, I didn't. I am going to look in the next issue of "The Ride" magazine. |
Jak
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 01:24 am: |
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Well let me know if you do. This weather sucks ••• by the way. I had to work and travel this week when it was 70 and now I get 50 and rainy for me weekend...bullsheet I say! |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 08:41 am: |
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Joe,
No worries. You are definitely different. Your motorcycle also happens to be fairly unique.  |
Neutron21
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 08:48 am: |
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i dont have to prove anything to either of you.
sitting there in your ivory palaces expecting me to document each and every instance.
i have lived it and i know my experience. as a service manager i know what i have and have not seen and i am commenting on my dealerships daily experience. we dealt in many manufactures and buell was the major problem from day to day and week to week.
so dont patronise me with your $2.49 kick stand arguement, its alot more then that rubbish. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:20 am: |
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Hears a thougt Blake and Court
ANd please dont take this the wrong way, its not ment to do anything other than ask some questions
Why should some one take your word for what Buell has done, where is the proof, ie where could someone find this info
or better yet
How do you sell a new XB bike to a former X1 owner or 99 S3 owner????
Do you just tell him/her its better, and expect them to belive it or do you sell the bike, show how its better(in reguards to former bikes that seemed to recalled on a semi regular basis)
How do you bring back all the lost customers that were tossed away with the obsoletion of parts, do all the dealers know that a lot of the parts have returned to the shelves??????
While there are a lot of owners out there with a lot of miles on the tube frame bikes, there are a lot of owners out there that have very few miles on said bikes, are still upset, and yet still want to buy a Buell
How do you plan to bring them back, by telling them what you say is right as oppsed to waht they experienced?????
Maybe its time Buell showed some proof, that is if they want those people back.
Again, JMHO
R |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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No problem. . .
>>>Why should some one take your word for what Buell has done, where is the proof, ie where could someone find this info.
or better yet
ANSWER: They likely don't. I suspect, given the rave magazine and owners reviews that much of it will be simply "word of mouth". There is absolutely NO REASON anyone should take my word, I am a construction worker.
>>>How do you sell a new XB bike to a former X1 owner or 99 S3 owner????
ANSWER: I am not certain. Buell seems to have adopted the "position it as "all new" and a diffenent sort of bike". Seems to be working, Ulysses are not exactly sitting around showrooms and it's the first Buell I recall waiting lists for. Don't get me wrong. Some of those folks, with 1999 Buells, had seriously ugly experiences, not unlike the one I had with my bradn new Chevy Vega years ago.
>>>Do you just tell him/her its better, and expect them to belive it or do you sell the bike, show how its better(in reguards to former bikes that seemed to recalled on a semi regular basis)
ANSWER: I suppose "just telling" would work for some folks, differnt folks have varying levels on "show me" skepticsim. Comparisons, at least many of them, with older bikes would be tough in that there are so few common parts/elements. The old ones expereinced many recalls and, as a result of it, Buell established a reputation as a "stay and fix" kinda group. Buell, largely though innovative test techniques, was able to discover some issues, resulting in recalls, that a less technically astute firm might have. They, in a sense, shot themselves in the foot. Case in point would be the shocks. Whatever your take on it, Buell owned up and replaced every last one, as the naysayers sung the company's death noll. To this day, i see Buell own up to things on bikes that are 7 and 8 years out of warranty. Singularly unique among motofacturers and a terribly convincing sales tool.
>>>>How do you bring back all the lost customers that were tossed away with the obsoletion of parts, do all the dealers know that a lot of the parts have returned to the shelves??????
ANSWER: I suspect there are less parts obsolete than you may think. In fact (case in point - RACE ECM) Buell is putting out feelers, asking owners "whatdya want?". Signularly unique and a powerful sales tool. I'v heavily investing in a 11 year old Buell at the moment with no reservations. The "do the dealers know" is a tough part of the question. Buell dealers remain the weak link. There is progress, if painfully slow. Several dealers have proven the "Buells are good business" case, but at it's best, that's a band-aid.
>>>>While there are a lot of owners out there with a lot of miles on the tube frame bikes, there are a lot of owners out there that have very few miles on said bikes, are still upset, and yet still want to buy a Buell
ANSWER: Don't I know it. I spend about 12 hours a week, actively finding them and trying to help. It's like a hobby. Some have legitimate concerns, some are without merit. It roughly parallels the population in general, in my mind. Mos the time, I find the animosity has grown out of two things, frustration and poor communication.
>>>How do you plan to bring them back, by telling them what you say is right as oppsed to waht they experienced?????
ANSWER: It's not my job to bring them back. Don't get me wrong, I hope Buell does well, but that is the task of Harley-Davidson (actually Buell Distribution Corp.) to do. They stumble, but generally do fairly well. Their strength is resouces, their weakness what is known as "negative transfer of knowledge", you'd call it trying to drive a nail with a screwdrive. They know how to H.O.G. well; are learning (and for the first time genuinely listening) to B.R.A.G.
They blindly take what I say as gospel at their own peril. I challenge and question things I hear from people in the world of Buell and have long played the role of de facto change agent and quasi-trouble maker. I swear I am passionate...I know that. Most the time I *THINK* I am right, but that's my personal opinion. There are, and they are well chronicled, times when I was light years wrong. When I was, I admitted it, fixed it and moved ahead. My bloodpressure is 100/80, I don't sweat the small stuff.
>>>Maybe its time Buell showed some proof, that is if they want those people back.
I wouldn't. Too much like a pissin' match and too much of it is subjective. You wanna prove to me (I'm pretty fluent in heavy duty math) that the XB handles better than a tube frame Buell? Start out by exercising your arguosimer on something like contact patch or oil. Buell has finite resources. I see them doing anything but devoting every fiber of their collective enthusiasm and talent to making the best motorcycle they can, I'll be in the middle of someone's ••••. Let the proof, I submit, roll on two wheels. For what it's worth (see above paragraph) it appears that OLD owners are enthralled with the new Buells and "never owned a HD or Buell before" folks are flocking to our number.
Likely not the publication of the secret memo you may have wanted (I showed it to Paul ) but it's a damned honest answer.....for a construction worker.
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Court
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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By the way. . . at least I ANSWERED ya! . . . Blake is just gonna argue with ya.
Tis what keeps us in love after all these years. |
Dago
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Here's my take on Buell and XB reliability:
The engine on my XB12 cratered at just under 12,000 miles. I was 2 months and 2,000 miles out of warranty.
IMHO, those 12,000 miles were very hard by anyones standards. I've held her wide open for well over an hour at a time on several occasions. She's been flogged around the track, raced from light to light and basically treated like a red-headed stepchild since day one past the 500 mile break in period. <no offense to any red-headed step children out there.>
It turns out that my compensator nut had worked its way loose (unbeknownst to me) while at the track last. During my last session, it back off enough to basically loosen the whole lower end, which lead to the motor shaking itself to death. Metal shavings were found throughout the oil path.
Evidently, this is a fairly common problem that, in my case, advanced very very quickly. Arguably too quickly for my untrained ears to detect while WFO.
Fortunately, I didn't have to argue about it. One phone call was made by my servicing dealership to Buell and it was handled. Two weeks after dropping it off, my XB was returned with basically a new engine.
Problems occur with any brand of any machine. I'm not at all convinced that my newly arriving jap bike won't have problems either. But I can tell you who I have more faith in to do the right thing should a questionable problem arise.
Do to their past, Buell has every reason and incentive to produce quality products and back them 100%. Can you imagine what it will to do their brand name if the tuber fiasco happens again? Fortunately for all of us XBers, I believe that Erik will never let that happen again.
I don't think you're taking any more risk buying a Buell than you are by buying any other brand. $h1t happens to the best of 'em! |
Buellerx
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
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I had a 96 S2, and bought a 04 XB12R. Yes some of the tube frames had problems. But most of the problems my S2 had were minor things like screws coming loose and my exhaust header developing small cracks (had to have it welded twice). But it always ran and was a lot of fun to ride. That bike is still on the road today with around 50K miles. I always "heard" about all the problems with the tube frames but I didn't know anyone personally that had any of those problems and I knew most Buell riders in my area because I was very involved in with BRAG. I think most of it was BS spewed by certain moto magazines that really want HD to fail and everything they do.
To be honest, I have had more problems with my XB than my old S2. I think I am in the minority however and most people seem to have a very good experience with the XB platform.
Just a footnote, the worst bike I ever owned in terms of reliability was a BMW K75. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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Hey Roger,
I'm really not at all interested in trying to sell Buell motorcycles. I just like spending time with fellow enthusiasts. I've probably said too much.
Interesting story... a friend of mine was on a trip on his GL1200 Gold Wing. Had some serious trouble, needed some emergency engine repair. Was told by the Honda dealer that they don't even work on those obsolete model motorcycles anymore. Luckily he found a private non-Honda affiliated shop that would repair his engine. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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I think its always going to come down to a case-by-case basis and what 'crowd' you're hangin' with. I read all the fantastic exchange on this board and bit the bullet and went for an '05 XB last winter... after 1 season of ownership, this bike has been in the shop OVER a handful of times, just check out my profile, more than any bike I've owned before.
my past life of Hondas... none of them did shop time. call it freek luck or whatever you want but for me (remember, my situation) this bike did not live up to the praise I read here regarding reliability. I love it to death and won't give it up for anything but now that i look back, new owners need to understand that there are tons of excuses made in this forum for these bikes. and same if you were on a Honda forum. every little issue can be explained away because we like to tinker and prefer to work on our bikes ourselves. not everyone likes to tinker or do their own work, I happen to love it.
now i know all makes and models of ANY machine will have issues. its the nature of ownership, its the issues I've had that i find a little annoying... motor mount almost immediately? rubbed wires all over the place? exhaust seals and bolts in under 5K? a front sprocket that was cast incorrectly (info from dealer)? a nasty ping in hot weather and i'm not lean? flywheel sprocket shaft nut comes loose at 5K? all in one NE season?
i could easily see someone who bought this bike to just ride it and not want to 'tinker' just giving up by now. my wife thinks i'm nuts for how in love i am with it. its like my Jeep, or the Heep as i like to call her, really makes me wonder about American quality but i'm crazy about both machines. but don't flame me, 'cause i'm a Bueller for life. its the first bike i plan to keep forever, this machine has SOUL. none of my Hondas (or Toyotas) had that.
i think these forums are great. i read the praise and the b*tching. it helps me understand the full picture. just always need to read everything with some thought, the internet can be a dangerous place for mechanical diagnosis and information if not used properly. |
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