| Author | Message | ||
     Glitch |
Didn't want to hijack the 90" thread. What would a good solid XB9 engine upgrade be? What kind of usable, dependable power could one get from a 1050 kit with head work? I'd like to see a nice flat torque curve and around 90+ HP. Any suggestions? Anyone have any experience with this type of work on an XB9? | ||
| Blake |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=32777&post=540017#POS T540017 | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Blake, I was also wanting to hear from XB9 owners that had done work on their engine. Looks like most of the XB9s are stock engines, with pipes. No word from Pammy yet? | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
My nephew had a XB9R with a 1050 kit and heads on it, with a Becin megaphone, (I think it was). He bought it built, and was never able to do any tuning on it. The result was that it never put out more than 74 hp, ( on the Dyno at Willow). My seat dyno confirmed: it was the same speed as my race kitted XB9S. I think success with this type of project is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the owners house and the shop that did the work, and is able to tune it and kept it going. These mods really need a top shop like Hals, or Tilleys that have racing experience to do the work, and keep the bike in tune. Buying the parts from one source, having another guy install it, and trying to tune it one's self does not hold much promise of a gratifying outcome, in my opinion. That being said, I think another 10 or 15 hp rear wheel is a reasonable goal, and that would certainly be noticeable on the road. | ||
| Scitz |
Any major mods to the intake, heads, exhaust, and cylinders is going to require at least a PCIII for fuel mapping and someone who knows how configure the map. There are some new ECM products coming on the market that I think may allow the adjustment of Fuel Curve, spark table, and rev limiter. At least I hope it will. It was advertised on TechnoResearch's website and in a previous thread some of the BadWeb vendors said they where looking into it. | ||
| Glitch |
That being said, I think another 10 or 15 hp rear wheel is a reasonable goal, and that would certainly be noticeable on the road. I'd be happy with 10 more HP and torque, nice and flat torque curve. Listen at me, never thought I ask for a flat curve! I was thinking of send the bike down to Pammy, they are the closest and a friend of mine has had work done by Wes, he's very happy. Wes got 140 streetable HP out of his ZRX1000. | ||
| Race_pirate |
I have heard the same as Gentleman Jon, I race with a guy that has gone for the 1050 Kit and bike puts out less HP then stock. I think its as always a function of $$$. I went with the XB9R for the rev's and always liked the idea of a short stroked HD engine. I did the typical bolt on mods and modified a Jardine for exhaust. I have seen and felt the difference. If I was going to do more displacement, the mechanical side is easy, its the fuel and ignition side that becomes more complex. IMO the XB9R is absolutely awesome to race and ride, if I was to make any change it would be for a wider powerband with some more rpms.... | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks for the input, this is what I was looking for. Real world, not bench racing. I did the typical bolt on mods and modified a Jardine for exhaust. What's typical? If you don't mind me asking. I have the Buell Race can, Race ECM, XB12 airbox (cut to next to nothing), and that's about it, oh yeah, I wrapped the headers too. | ||
| Race_pirate |
Thats the typical mods - Race ECM, 12 lid, Air Filter, Slip on. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I agree with Pirate Bill and Scitz. Increasing the displacement is no problem, but unless you can find someone that has REALLY solved the air/fuel delivery problem, you aren't accomplishing much. So far, the solution has proven elusive at best because of the difficultly of accurately regulating and tuning the electronic fuel injection, and the inlet tract design. I believe at least one of the West Coast dealer sponsored bikes are using carbs, some racers have got dual intake tracts, and a tour of the pits at Willow will reveal a variety of approaches with no particular one being sure fire. Slaughter knows a lot more about that gang than I do perhaps he will chime in. I was told that Buell has a new "racer only" ecm in the works that is readily programmable with a Windows computer, but I don't know if anyone has one in real life, or how to get one. Sounds like the missing link though. | ||
| M1combat |
Techno-research claims to be in the VERY final stages of testing a piece of software that will modify all of the circuits of the stock ECM's. That's the answer right there  . WRT displacement... I'm headed for the largest bore I can go and a custom crank that'll get me to 1348cc. I'll then set the rev limit to about 10% higher than I think I should and listen for the KABOOM! one of these days. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
check out the torque and power curves that Trojan is posting on the Uly Supermoto thread. He seems to have got the RapidBike fuel controller to work very well. Could be what everyone has been waiting for. | ||
| Glitch |
Could be what everyone has been waiting for. It's what I've been looking for. | ||
| Glitch |
Waiting for even! | ||
| Opto |
Increasing the displacement is no problem, but unless you can find someone that has REALLY solved the air/fuel delivery problem, you aren't accomplishing much The Megasquirt EFI (www.msefi.com) really does solve the fuel issue. It is not plug and play but is cheap and very effective. It is not a bandaid solution, it is a fully programmable standalone fuel injection controller and works very well. Takes a lot of time to learn to set it up (as with any aftermarket EFI) but once a person knows how to use it, it all gets a lot easier. I'm surprised that more people haven't tried it, especially the performance shops, the datalogging capabilities are enormous, and the (free) code and (free) features and (free) utility software are being constantly updated by people motivated by passion rather than corporate profit. But I do hope the new offerings for tuning Buell ecm's work well and make a lot of Buell owners happy. | ||
| Glitch |
I had looked into Megasquirt a year or two ago (may have heard about it from you) and just thought it was over my head, didn't know where or how to get started. I don't think they had a message board back then either. You're the first I know of that's used MS on a Buell. I'll revisit, thanks. | ||
| Scitz |
I was wondering if I sign up with NHRA at my local track and bracket race in my local region would I be eligible for the Buell Factory Race Only programmable ECM. | ||
| Glitch |
Trojan is having really good luck with the RapidBike adjustable ECM. I don't know if they're here in the states yet though. The "Race Only" ECM has to be programmed each time conditions change, weather, altitude, ect... It doesn't "learn" it has to be "taught" | ||
| Scitz |
I didn't know that it doesn't use all the sensor inputs to make adjustments. That would pose a problem for a street bike. Guess I just have to wait to see the results of the RapidBike. Then the only problem is finding the right person to help tune the bike. | ||
| Opto |
Glitch, I'm in the very early stages of contemplating the thought of maybe putting MS on the Uly, and designing a Buell-specific PCB (small enough to fit in the airbox on a Lightning or maybe behind the fairing on a Firebolt) with only the components on it required to run an XB for fuel-only mode. Only 8 wires of the stock ecm harness would need to be interfered with i.e. cut or spliced into. I know it's a bit overwhelming the amount of information on the msefi.com site, but if I could design a Buell-specific MS PCB, and state which processor code and what tuning programs and utility programs will work etc with this setup, then maybe a few more Buell riders would give it a go (at their own risk). The setup would still retain the switch to go back to the stock ecm for fuel at any time, as a backup and for reference. Necessary requirements would be the ability to solder up a PCB or know someone who can, an old laptop with a serial connector, a wideband O2 sensor and controller (Google "LC-1 wideband" )and a bung welded into the pipe, a Palm III/IIIc/IIIx/IIIxe/V/Vx or some later models and some custom made up serial cables. And lots of patience... The main processor would still have to be bought from B & G (the fathers of MS) and the components from local source or Digikey. The PCB would have to be sold via a sponsor, or whatever you suggest, I don't think there will be more than 5 people willing to try it, this post is about encouraging MS into the Buell community, not selling something (I'm happy with my day job!)It will not be a threat to TFI, Rapid Bike or any others since it is DIY, not plug and play. These are just thoughts at this early stage, but if I'm going to MS another XB (now that I think I know what I'm doing) why not make it easier for others who may be sitting on the fence. | ||
| Slaughter |
Glitch, I'm chiming in late here. My XB9 is bored to 1169cc (3 13/16 bore). It's a much quicker throttle response than you'd expect. I've lightened and balanced the whirling bits which helps even more with quick-revving. If I could afford monthly re-builds, I'd set the redline to 8000, as it is, I have it at 7800 and the motor has lasted really well. I try to shift at 7500 (or so) Bike is kinda-sorta putting about 100-103HP to the ground. I've kept the compression ratio relatively low (10.5:1) - again not wanting to rebuild the thing every month. Hydrosolids, stage III heads, 585 cams, heavy valve springs... the usual small stuff. Buell racing/R&D has a Windows beta version - of the programming software NOT a new module. The module still does everything you'll ever need a module to do. The new software does make dyno-tuning more intuitive. Again, the race module isn't available on the street. If the market weren't so small, there'd have been a true ECM put out by 3rd parties for "civilian use" - as it is, you have to be a licensed racer and then only buy through a dealer (Buell doesn't sell direct to customers) We're so much in love with FI that we're going to try modifying the Blast motor (whenever I get the &$#@! thing) to use half of my XB9 induction system... if there's time. XB-Blast could be fun. And you're right Scitz and Glitch - it's an open loop control system. No oxy sensor. It's really REALLY easy to totally fry a motor on the dyno doing tuning if you're not careful. Easy to fry a motor on the track if you miss a few points in doing a dyno pull too (almost happened to mine) (Message edited by slaughter on November 13, 2005) | ||
| Opto |
When you have total control over the fuel I agree it is very easy to destroy a motor, that's a responsibility that a user has to take - there are no warranties, if one stuffs up one pays for it. But on a street bike with on-board monitoring of AFR you can progressively use more throttle and check the AFR as you go along, and because you're not racing and having to perform, you can set it up rich and then lean out as required and take your time. Also datalogging at WOT or any throttle position can give as many in-between points as you want. I can see the point for closed-loop on a passenger car but not for a sports bike, but on the XB's it gives excellent fuel economy in cruise mode. With a wideband and MS (on a street bike) you don't need a dyno because you can tune the bike to the AFR, you only put the bike on the dyno to get some "figures". Yes it is easy to fry a motor at WOT, on a dyno, on the track or even on the street. | ||
| Glitch |
I know it's a bit overwhelming the amount of information on the msefi.com... No doubt! I'm chiming in late here. As long as you're chiming! Thanks! Opto, this has been a learning experience. I think I could handle the build (physical stuff) I used to work for Hubbell Primise Wiring repairing PCBs, I'm just not sure about the other stuff. I'll be doing more research as time permits. Buell only system, sounds like a winner! The main processor would still have to be bought from B & G (the fathers of MS) and the components from local source or Digikey. I don't see a conflict here, since everything seems to be focused on showing your work, and the way I understand it B&G sticks with one product to keep everything simple (Q&A and simplicity towards troubleshooting). I'm sure I could find one of our sponsors that would offer the parts needed. Slaughter, what are your thoughts on just lightening things up a bit. The power of my bike seems to be enough for what I do, I'd really like it to spin up a bit faster though, and that would be just like getting more HP in my case, I'm pretty sure. I'm not looking into monster of a bike, more like tuning what I've got. Before, when I started this thread I was thinking that making more power was the only way to go. Now that I've done a bit more research, I'm thinking if I could get to the power I've already got faster, that would be just as good, I think, maybe... Your thoughts? | ||
| Slaughter |
Don't know about how best to lighten things up. I took all the whirling bits (flywheel, rods, pistons) in for balancing after lightening the flywheel. I'd only go with somebody who has done it for racing purposes - all the usual suspects from Cyclerama, Hal's, Hoban Brothers, Revolution, NRHS - all can do the work. I had mine done at Bartels but they don't offer over the counter race work any longer. This is a kind of a deal among us who share the same pits on race days. The lighter spinning parts and higher sustained RPM trashes the bottom end sooner. So far, so good but the race bikes are really hard on the bottom ends since we're running most of the time up over 6000 RPM, shifting up around 7000-7300. Dont' know how a lightened/balanced system would hold up on a streetbike. The throttle response is sorta hard to judge - I went from a stock XB9 to the race motor - so my perception of "throttle response" may not be too accurate since I went from a motor putting down 80ish HP to about 100-103 in the new form. The motor is really a street-able motor the way I'm setup. It's dang reliable with 6 months racing at 4 races a month, it needed rebuilding but all things considered, I don't push it as hard as SERIOUS racers so it tends to last longer. If I had paid staff to provide mechanic help and didn't have to pay for parts, I'd be much more willing to flog it harder. I've put more bucks into suspension than some folks but have no regrets. (Traxxion and Penske) and have taken really detailed notes on setup. Jeff Ecklund at Bartels swapped my Penske into the Bartels bike (1340cc big bike) and it made a big difference to him - more than a second a lap over the stock Showa... 1 sec/lap is the equivalent of more than 10 HP at the speeds he runs! (Message edited by slaughter on November 15, 2005) | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks for the input Slaughter. Suspension is definitely on my to-do list. I was thinking of some replacement parts for making things lighter. There's a primary assembly that's suppose to be very light, I was thinking along those lines. I don't want to split open the case. | ||
| Slaughter |
Yeah - I've been lazy on taking the overall weight down. I've just unbolted stuff. Same stuff you'd do to a streetbike if you were only riding solo. I took off the chainguards - just looks cooler and my boot stays away from the front sprocket anyways | ||
| Bud |
my bike is just the 3 13/16 bore , mild headwork, stockcam's, little more compresion.. i made a bad move putting in a used crank ( balanced with the 3 13/16 pistons ) very bad move.... had to rebuild the enigine after 5ooo miles ( bigend failure ) stuped me... but i like the setup, mild & power full i would like it to top the 100 Rwhp, but for now, i don't want to open up the engine again, just ride it | ||
| Opto |
Bud, What are you using to add fuel, TFI? Slaughter, I guess you are still running the stock injectors? Thanks for the input guys, it's all interesting stuff. | ||
| Slaughter |
Yeah, I'm running the stock injectors - with the high pressure regulator, I get the time/squirt/volume it needs. | ||
| Bud |
Bud, What are you using to add fuel, TFI? noop, @ the time the only thing working with out errors was a pc3 for a X1 did tray other injectors, but sticked with the oem one's but, the world has opened up for Fi-tuning.. did you see the direct-link software from thechnoreseach ? that's really kickass |
