| Author | Message | ||
     2hogs |
Boiling brake fluid and moment arms? You guys are giving me a headache. Keep it up and I may never ride again :-) Just kidding. I still think it comes down to the ZTL looking cool and a single one is effective for what the bike was designed for -- the street. double smiley! I always thought the term 'race-replica' meant the manufacturer took a race bike, reworked it, and made a production model from it? I also thought Buell was into making fun street bikes? Different design points? Course, cost and EPA regs make any street bike a compromise huh? Cheers | ||
| Reepicheep |
The heat *must* be constant regardless. If it isn't, you just created a perpetual motion machine. Regardless of Chop's assertions to the contrary, I don't think the ZTL setup is *that* good. Energy can't be created or destroyed, only moved around. It can be converted from potential energy (the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gasoline for example) to kinetic energy (accelerating a given weight to a given speed), but it is still just "moving it around". Once you have a given amount of energy manifest in a kinetic form as mass times velocity (i.e. 480 pounds at 70 miles per hour), if you want to slow that bike, you *must* transfer all that kinetic energy (energy of motion) somewhere. Motorcycles do this by squeezing a steel disk with brake pads, that creates friction, that creates heat. The amount of heat is directly proportional to the speed and weight you are changing. Any passive brake system (ZTL, dual disk, feet on asphalt, whatever) will have the same amount of heat to deal with. The overall temperature of the result will be how much metal you have to store that heat, and how much surface area that metal has to try and bleed that heat away as it builds up. (and some other things I am ignoring in the effort to remain clear). If you had a "regenerative braking system" like a Toyota Prius, you can get around some of the heat. Instead of slowing the vehicle with friction, you turn the wheel into a generator. The amount of electricity (energy) this generator creates is again directly proportional to the weight and speed bled off. That electricty must go somewhere, typically a battery. If you then discharged that battery through a space heater, you would get the same amount of heat you would have gotten on the brake system had you just stopped normally the first time. Or if you ran this battery to a motor, you would be able to re-create the original speed for the original weight right as the battery discharges. (in a perfect world). (disclaimer, the system described above will have losses and inefficiencies that will bleed energy out in different places, typically as heat, so you will never quite recover everything, but you get the idea). The most dramatic example of this was a machines and power class I took. We had this lab setup with this big loud scary 240 volt motor. We spun it up to full speed, which makes it sound like it will fly apart at any moment and take a limb off, then had rigged up a great big switch that we could flip. We would flip this switch and it would first disconnect the power going to the motor, and then come around the rest of the way and completely short out the motor inputs. The typical electric motor is also a generator by default. If you feed it electric, it produces motion. If you feed it motion, it produces electricty. So anyway, we flip this big old switch (really a big copper bar with a handle) and instantly completely short out this big motor spinning fast. *****WHAM****** We thought we had died. The motor tried to rip itself out of the mounts on the lab bench, the whole bench jumped up, and our ears were ringing. We stood there for a moment amazed at this demonstration of conversion of kinetic energy to electrical energy, and then did what any other self respecting group of engineers would do....  Set it up again, spin it even faster, and do it again Our instructor came over about the third time we did it and made us stop.  | ||
| Fdl3 |
Reepicheep: Stop it! Stop it, I say!! My sides are hurting from the laughter... ...and the mental image | ||
| Unibear12r |
Sorry, this is what I get for wanting to throw something up but haveing to go to work and not taking the time to explain myself. My bad. I have a great deal of respect for Trojan as a parts supplier AND as a race canpainer.Best of luck to them in both! Thank you! Chop you are still running on pure emotion,massive assumption on what's going on on the other side of the screen and a locked mind. Not namecalling, just an observation of how you have conducted yourself on this thread. I finaly explained the flaw in your reasoning to attack something and you still dont see, or perhaps just dont want to see. Thanks Reep, thats a lot of typing which I'm not good at. Brake pads themselves loose effectiveness with heat also. Useing one caliper/set of pads to do the job of two means twice the heat in the pads. Sorry, I assumed everybody knew what I ment before. The 8 puck caliper and pad has extra power above the 6 puck which can act as a reserve to combat fade. It also has bigger pads and caliper body that will soak/dissipate heat better. With the caliper tucked into the wheel so well I've wondered if the ZTL caliper doesnt have less airflow. The fenders used nowdays also look like they might actualy divert air away from the brakes. Molding the fender to put air on the caliper at race speeds might help along with fins molded on it. Is Buell or anybody doing this I wonder? Or do they get enough airflow? Thanks Matty, I've been wondering about changes in pad materal. I'm short of time again. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Reep, dynamic brakeing with no current limiting and a knife blade switch? Wow, thats brave.  Get much of an inductive arc as you closed that switch? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Our machines and power professor had an evil streak. But then again, don't they all Come to think of it, there was some current limiting in there, but not a lot. And knowing how confused I was through most of machines and power classes, I doubt I had it wired right | ||
| Unibear12r |
Dj, as Reep points out, same amount of work = same amount of heat. But a perimeter disk is much larger so it is far better at soaking up and dissipating the heat IT recieves. But the Buells caliper and pads are not twice the size of the two calipers on a standard dual disk tho. Works just fine for us street riders but has problems with the higher heat and wear of raceing. I think everyone shortchanges ZTL on thinking that its best attribute is the supriseing unsprung weight reduction. For street use yes but I think its possible versitility is it's best feature. In raceing it could leed to an extreemly versitile front end that can be configured for individual tracks. It could be set up as current for tighter and bumpier tracks or with variations up to a dual disk that would have only a slight weight advantage but massive fade resistance and brake power. Lots of options for set up on race day. Would work well on a lot of other bikes as well. Might be a long time before Buell does that tho... | ||
| Unibear12r |
Trojan your reply to my post after your pictures had me confused until I relized you thought I was commenting on your bike as pictured. Not at all, I was commenting on your old caliper's problems and thinking of how I'd like to see different variations of the ZTL for different applications. Sorry for the confusion. | ||
| Jima4media |
Goingwindware, your drawing is completely wrong...   Jim | ||
| Eeeeek |
Imonabuss, You said "And I don't believe the factory has some magical power to force these guys." It's not magic, it's finanaces. Buell gives DEEP discounts on many parts to races and varieous levels of support. To get this support, you must run the ZTL front. Blake, Alan's comment on Braking making a perimeter rotor first is perfectly valid. Unibear Hypothesized that the G-B bike tried to immitate ZTL but couldn't because of the patent. Chop was pointing out that the front wheel/brakes on the G-B bike came out before the Buell. BTW, I'm writing this from Buttonwillow raceway. I just pulled my own personal best time today and watched Josh Hayes test his New Erion Honda FX bike. Talk about a front row seat! Vik | ||
| Anonymous |
Eeeek, Well, what you just wrote to Imonabuss is a lie, and I know it. There are no special factory discounts available only to those who run ZTL. You just dropped off my scale of respectability with that one buddy. And Braking did not make the perimeter rotor first. The first one I ever saw was on a West Coast two stroke Formula One bike in about 1976, and it was built by the racer, who was an aerospace machinist. Know his name? I didn't think so. We'll see who reads this that does. Clue: he was killed at Ontario, and was a friend of mine. Also, Lockheed was building perimeter brakes in the early 1980s, long before Braking existed. And a little company called Pittsburgh Performance Products made some stainless clad qaluminum brake rotors for Lockheed to try, because of the inertia problems. Randy Mamola tested them on the works RG500 Suzukis. So, if you know your history, Buell goes way back. That's why we were the first one to figure out how to make them work right. | ||
| Blake |
Alan, "please dont start another flame war about this." ... "I'm NOT flaming"... "Blake didnt chase me away. its the general stupidity here that has.  Frankly Alan, I've rebutted and refuted a number of what you seem to think are "factual" statements. You conveniently ignore those troublesome "facts" though don't you? Interesting that Matt, a man I respect, sharing your opinion concerning the performance of the ZTL in racing conditions is held up by you as the one singular definitive source of wisdom and experience on the issue. You conveniently choose to ignore or offhandedly discount the opinions of other with relevant experience but who are in opposition to your way of thinking. I think the facts speak for themselves... 4th place in FX at Laguna Seca and ahead of some very well respected racers at other venues. Pretty sure that proves that the ZTL performs just fine on the track. Let me once again turn your own statement back around at you... You will defend your preconvcieved notions as fact to the death, even in the face of contradictory facts and direct expereince. There is nothing to contribute, you know it all. So why bother. The simple fact Alan, is that if you cannot even acknowledge, as you refuse to do, that the Buell ZTL brake/wheel system offers a major reduction in unsprung mass, you have zero standing sitting here preaching to me that I don't consider the facts or am somehow mired in my preconceived notions. You conveniently ignore the fact that I indeed have turned laps in anger with both a conventional dual and a single disk front end as have racing friends of mine. Their comment? The single disk offers less power, but is plenty adequate. Floating the rear wheel down from high speed was never a problem with either configuration. So there you go Alan, I've raced and ridden both configuration on the track and I'm here to tell you that the single disk does just fine by me. Of course you'll probably conveniently ignore that. Just call me stupid or make some comment about Kool-Aid. Whatever. That kind of dialogue earns no respect with me. The fact that I also happen to be an engineering professional specializing in analysis of structural/mechanical systems should have some bearing on my credibility and the level of respect my well considered opinion and analysis may carry. Apparently not to you. I'm sure you put more stock in Jim's analysis of that sketch. The simple hard fact is that the advantage offered by the ZTL brake/wheel is not improved braking performance compared to a dual disk racing configuration. The major advantage and the significant benefit of the great innovation of the Buell ZTL wheel/brake is its significantly reduced mass, not just mass, but unsprung mass and thus also greatly benefitting front suspension performance. It's getting silly that you insist on proof of that. LOL. Like I said earlier, I assumed you were clear on the whole "air is lighter than aluminum" thing. Maybe we need to clarify that point? Are you clear on that whole "air is lighter than aluminum" thing? Where is Mr. Slaughter? He races a ZTL Buell if I'm not mistaken. (Message edited by Blake on October 22, 2005) (Message edited by Blake on October 22, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Jim, That sketch is not completely wrong. Only its scale is exaggerated. You conveniently chose a conventional front wheel with much larger dual disks than we find on the current crop of repliracers. Not sure how you can argue that a 310mm diameter rotor is the same size as a 375mm diameter ZTL disk. Pretty simple, just compare the rotor diameters. Besides offering more braking power, there is another advantage to the dual disk configuration that no one has mentioned. I'm not sure how significant it is, but it would seem to tend to be an advantage. | ||
| Blake |
Reep, Excellent. Same heat, different temperatures. Matt, I wouldn't be surprised if the Buell racing teams here had worked to improve the ZTL brake in racing applications and found way to do so. Court is bleeding hints about Buells at Daytona this coming March, which to me implies Buells running the 200 mile race in Formula Xtreme! Will be interesting to see the brakes. I won't be crushed if they show up with conventional dual disks, but I'll be surprised. I'd sure like to see a well-sorted 8-pot race caliper. Thanks for chiming in. Hope you sell lots of stuff. Don't let the critics get to you. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Imonabus is somehow interested in selling stuff too. Congratulations again on winning the championship with the Buell. Would sure like to see you do that again. | ||
| Blake |
This will remain one of my all time favorites though (paraphrasing)... "The Ghezzi wheel is lighter than a conventional wheel." "I don't believe it just cause you say it; you'll need to prove to me that the Buell ZTL wheel is lighter than a conventional wheel."  | ||
| Blake |
Owned! | ||
| Blake |
My gut is actually sore from laughing so hard! | ||
| Trojan |
Congratulations again on winning the championship with the Buell. Would sure like to see you do that again. Funnily enough we were just talking about this the other day. Road racing in the UK is pretty stagnant at the moment and all the organisers seem interested in is filling the grids with Jap 600's. There just isn't a class that we could race the Buell in competitively any more. I did push very hard for the XB9 to be included in the Minitwins series (SV650) but they weren't interested. Our bike went to Italy to race, where they have a very strong Supertwins series for air cooled 2 valve twins. There is however a fledgling Flat Track series in the UK now (short speedway tracks around 400-600yds). If I could get hold of a Blast flat tracker we'd be very interested in doing that next year. As the UK has never had dirt track/flat track racing before it would be something very different over here Most people are using MX or Supermoto bikes fitted with 17" wheels at the moment, but it would be cool to turn up with a 'Proper' Buell flat tracker. Maybe Henry Duga will know where I can pick one up | ||
| Reepicheep |
I wonder what it would take to machine another part so you could mount a second 6 pot caliper 90 degrees clockwise from the existing caliper? Dual caliper, single rotor. It would be overkill, and not as light as the 8 pot unit, but it would be a cheap and easy mod. Probably not necessary though. What does the normal superbike have? Two 4 pot cailpers? Or two 6 pot calipers? | ||
| Eeeeek |
Anony, I stand corrected. Now answer me this in all honesty: Does Buell "strongly encourage" teams to run the ZTL front end? Is it "strongly encouraged" enough to be considered close to strong arming? That's the impression I've gotten from some Buell racers. As for dropping off your respecatability scale, from the way I've been addressed in previous posts, I didn't realize I could go down any further. Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on October 22, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
(Message edited by Choptop on October 22, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
so annon, how does the history of the perim. disc add anything to the discussion. we have several riders that say they've ridden bike with both the ZTL and Dual set ups and one is better than the other. please relate the history lesson to the discussion at hand. all else, you've stated your opinions on the theories. we have several riders that say they've ridden bike with both the ZTL and Dual set ups and one is better than the other. please relate your theories, which dont stand up in the face of experimentation, real world applications. | ||
| Choptop |
Well, what you just wrote to Imonabuss is a lie, and I know it. There are no special factory discounts available only to those who run ZTL. You just dropped off my scale of respectability with that one buddy. does the factory DENY any sort of support to those that dont run the ZTL? | ||
| Choptop |
how about contingency money? you've brought it up. Have the balls the answer fully and honestly. | ||
| Blake |
Before... "check to see who had the perimeter brake first, Buell or Braking. Report back." Now... "so annon, how does the history of the perim. disc add anything to the discussion. " I dunno Alan, but he was simply reporting back on the facts. Pretty darn good reporting too. Alan, you were the one who offered the erroneous fact concerning the originator of the perimeter brake disk. Do you ever admit when you are wrong in such a discussion? Just one more point where you thought your "facts" were unchallengeable, but in truth were simply mistaken. Again. It is a pattern that is all too familiar. PS: Try the "Delete" button?  | ||
| Choptop |
I never said Braking INVENTED the perimeter brake, I said they had it before Buell. they did. Someone else had it before them. Was it Buell Motorcycles? nope. that point was at those who claimed the Ghezi stole from Buell. Not so. back to the topic at hand. we have several riders that say they've ridden bike with both the ZTL and Dual set ups and one is better than the other. please relate your theories, which several say dont stand up in the real world, to real world application. so far we have... Torjan is just trying to sell brakes I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about anything else? anyone else actually TRY it out? or are ya'll content with your believing your theories just because you believe your theories. If thats so, thats fine. | ||
| Jima4media |
Blake, A Buell never finished 4th at Laguna in FX, Ciccotto finished 10th in 2004. There wasn't an FX race there this year. I did see him finish 1st in Pro Thunder in 2003, though. Ciccotto finished 4th at VIR in 2004, because Jake Zemke high-sided and didn't race in either FX or SuperBike. The Trojan Brembo Dual Radial brakes are 320mm not 310mm. The drawing makes it look like the difference is 500mm versus 200mm. Scale is everything. Check the facts. (Message edited by jima4media on October 22, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
So to answer my direct question... "check to see who had the perimeter brake first, Buell or Braking. Report back." answer... Braking. thanks for making my point for me Blake. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Energy can't be created or destroyed, only moved around, et al" I was going to get into the same explanation Reep, but I didn't have time! You said it better than I could, though. Great post. It was like watching PBS. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Dj, as Reep points out, same amount of work = same amount of heat. But a perimeter disk is much larger so it is far better at soaking up and dissipating the heat IT recieves." You're not looking at the other end of the equation. What is going to have more surface area for braking and dissapating heat, a single large rotor, or 2 slightly smaller rotors with greater mass? |
