| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
In what way? Are you saying they lack the requisite stopping power to flip the bike at any speed? Are you saying they will overheat in a race situation? Are you saying they lack sufficient feedback to be properly modulated in race situations? No flame war, I just want to understand why you think they are insufficient and see if we can back it up with any math. And everything is a tradeoff, so you may be giving up a little of the above to get a decrease in unsprung weight, which will gain advantages in areas unrelated to braking, that has to be taken into effect as well. If I am not mistaken, most major race replicas have recently been *decreasing* rotor size in the interest of loosing braking capacity but gaining advantages in unsprung and rotational mass reduction. | ||
| Choptop |
any set of brakes can flip a bike at speed. the 86 Fj1200 in my garage will put you over the bars if you pull hard enough on the lever... yet you dont see the MotoGP guys using 86 Fj1200 brakes on thier bikes. like I said, ts all about how/when/why/where/how quick/how hard/how fast they can slow the bike down WITHOUT flipping it that matters. its about feel. its about power. if you've never ridden a bike at track pace, you will never understand. do so, and report back. heck, ride any modern sportbike/race.rep/crotch-rocket... whatever you want to call it with stock pads, then report back.... THEN, change out the stock pads for Vesrahs.... THEN report back. notice a difference? you will. The Vesrahs offer MUCH better braking. You can brake later, brake deeper, go faster into corners.... all without going over the bars. and let me tell you, the stockers are fine to put you over the bars. Would you notice a difference on the street? Prolly never, unless you did some real agressive braking... panic type stuff. Cuz thats the level of braking you do on the race track. If you aint braking that hard, you aint going fast enough, cuz the guy that just passed you IS braking that hard. hell, the WLA front brake will lock up the front wheel and put you over the bars.... but yet no one in their right mind will argue that a 1942 WLA drum brake is all you need for racing applications. no "math" needed. like I said, its all about how/when/why/where/how quick/how hard/how fast they can slow the bike down WITHOUT flipping it that matters. (Message edited by Choptop on October 20, 2005) | ||
| Unibear12r |
Chop, I know many of "armchair" types involved in many different fields of endevor. Rocket science to MotoGP to Football. For some of these guys it's just a hobbie, for others it's their job, they are engineers. Many of both kinds can tell the guy in the hot seat far more about what he's doing than he can. No flames? The"I'm a racer and your not" statement is flaming at it's worse and a bit unwise/immature to boot. You are throwing alot of stuff out there, much of it good but you don't seem to be able to make your point and you're getting a bit flustered here. "Any set of brakes can flip a bike at speed" is a bit of a bold statement! True, any brakes that can are good enough to go racing on...for awhile. Reread the facts in your own posts...without the emotions and with an open mind. It's about heat disapation and brake fade, not gross braking power. If you can loop the bike at any time during a race you have more than enough power. In the ZTL the larger disk disipates heat far better than the smaller ones but the single caliper and set of pads must soak up the energy of two and is not quite up to the task of superbike/MotoGP energy levels. That's changing. As noted before high end raceing bikes are going to smaller brakes to improve unsprung weight. That's possible because of the ongoing brake & pad technology. Yes lets DO change pads. These improvements apply directly to ZTL brakes as well. ZTL will only improve with time but where it ends up has a much to do with perception as reality. You are a prime example of that Chop. Of course they don't loop the MotoGP bikes, the reason for carbon brakes was not gross braking power but heat fade and weight. Geez I'm proof that you don't have to know how to spell to graduate from college in this country!  (Message edited by unibear12r on October 20, 2005) (Message edited by unibear12r on October 20, 2005) (Message edited by unibear12r on October 20, 2005) | ||
| Johnb |
I vote for DUAL ZTL brake rotors on the front for the 2006/07 fireboltlong racer version.  | ||
| Choptop |
dude, I'm NOT flaming.... all I am saying is, its not something one can really quantify... you have to ride the bikes and feel the difference. You have to push them REALLY hard to feel it. The follwoing statements are made without emotion or an attitude of "I'm a racer and yer not". Ride a Buell. Brake as hard as you can can going into a corner. Go as fast you can going imto a corner. then ride a bike with a standard dual brake set up. go as fast as you can in to a corner, brake as hard as you can. you can brake harder and go faster into the corner with a dual disc set up. </end of no emotion statement> go do it. Report back. There IS a difference. Its like saying, hey, I have 100hp at the rear tire on my Buell, and there is 100hp at the rear tire on this 600cc bike. Are they the same? No, its all about feel and how that power is delivered. One ride around the block will put to rest thousands of words. You will KNOW the difference. HARD braking is about how long you can go without using the brakes, and then being able to get on them. ITs about how the quickly/smoothly that power is delivered. Hey, I dont know about ALL bikes.. but all of the ones in my garage can pretty muuch do a stoppie. Some you would have to work on it. But the WLA can be stood on its nose, so can the FJ1200, and the DRZ... prehaps the Triumph can be, but its got a long raked out set of forks and a crappy front brake. But the point is, none of those front brakes are up to racing spec. Being able to loop the bike does NOT equal adiquate braking power, application, feel, delivery. again, you MUST go ride them to find out. The carbon carbon brakes DO offer more stopping power than conventional materials, its not all about wieght. I do not have direct expereince with them, at least on a bike. But I have ridden in a car with them, and the owner reports an AMAZING increase in stopping power over conventional set ups. I can attest to nearly having to put my eyes back in their sockets after a full powerr stop from a good clip. | ||
| Millx1 |
Compared to the Ghezzi-Brian, it looks like the Buell rotor might be mounted a little closer to the center/middle of the wheel. I'm guessing computer software told Buell engineers moving that rotational weight closer in makes a better wheel. Does it? Probably, but at it's current development stage it might be hard to tell the difference, even if one were to ride both bikes back to back to back to back. Personally I like the looks of the old style rim brake of the Guzzi. Looked really cool on tubers too. | ||
| Chadhargis |
The Britten is one of the most beautiful bikes ever made.  | ||
| Roly |
wow like that bike.looks a bit of kit , don't fancy cleaning it. | ||
| Choptop |
look at it this way... the stock ZTL on a Buell is more than enough to flip the bike. add better than stock brake pads to the stock Buell and all of a sudden you have better brakes. you can go deeper, brake harder. so while the stockers are indeed enough to flip the bike, there are not the ultimate in braking. They can be better, just like any other brake set up. so having the power to flip the bike does not equal adequate. when someone outbrakes you into a corner (all other things being equal, we are talking equipment abilities, not balls or riding ability), your brakes are no longer adequate. again, this is for TRACK and race use. you'll prolly never notice the difference on the street. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Here's another question then... Both the Buell ZTL and traditional dual rotor setups have more then enough power to flip the bike, so it is not about absolute strength, I agree. I would also put the best brake pads for each application on the bike for track use... comparing stock consumables versus race oriented consumables for a track bike is silly. So, if you had premium pads on both the ZTL and traditional dual rotor setups, and were on the track, which would be better? That is the question you are asking, and it is a fair one, and it sounds like it is (to a large degree) opinion based on experience. All I am saying is that the current ZTL setup offers other advantages over the traditional setup besides pure braking feel. So you might sacrifice some braking feel in order to get better absolute stopping distance over uneven corner entries for example. Or the feel might be different, not necessarily better or worse, and if one were to take the time to get used to the ZTL setup for track use they may start to find the traditional dual rotor setup to be the one with the "worse" feel. I don't have track experience. If you want to assume I can't have a valid opinions about braking because of that, that is your right. I do have experience with dual front rotor setups on bikes I have owned and bikes I have ridden, and 25k miles of experience on my Cyclone (single rotor non perimiter setup). My 9sx has far better and immediately obvious braking "feel" then any of the other bikes I have ridden, especially over crappy road surfaces. I don't have to push it on the track to feel the difference, I can do it at the first stop sign I approach (provided I am not being taligated). I am able to come to a very hard stop, and modulate the position of the rear of the bike while I do a rolling low altitude stoppie to probably within half an inch of height. I just have a hard time imagining how any other brake setup could offer better "feel". Is it initial engagement? Is it ability to modulate forces quickly? Is it front end feedback? You are making absolute statements about braking system configurations, but every time we press in for facts we start getting opinions about feelings. I am not saying those feelings are wrong or dismissing them, you are a smart guy with a lot more experience on bikes then I. What I don't understand is how you are making logically valid conclusions to isolate the mechanics of the braking system versus your experience and personal preference when the only facts so far are "the one I have the most experience with feels better to me". Especially when this does not take into account different strategies that could leverage different strenghts. If you loose feel but gain absolute performance over rough surfaces, that might be a good tradeoff for some people in some circumstances. Seriously, this is not a flame, I think it's a good discussion. | ||
| Choptop |
here is a closer view of a Ghezzi Brian front wheel....  the Mille in tha background is mine... well, was mine.. | ||
| Choptop |
huh one pic didnt load, lets try again...  | ||
| Spike |
I can't pull a José and provide pictures, but I've see a number of thunderbike/FX racebikes that still use a single disc setup along with the 8-piston caliper. That's not to say the ZTL is flawless either, I've definitely run into some fade issues. | ||
| Choptop |
ahhh, gotcha... I was speaking to "all" of the other racers.. not Buell racers in specific. if there was an overall advantage to be gained from using a single prerimter style disc, you can bet racers would be doing it. Some have just the will to win, others have millions of $'s on the line. | ||
| The_old_poop |
Re: "The Britten is one of the most beautiful bikes ever made" AMEN! | ||
| M1combat |
Deceleration is more a function of CG height and geometry than it is of braking torque produced by a caliper and rotor combo/system. That's a fact. It's physics. Once you get brakes to NOT fade and offer acceptable stopping distance over a race distance they are good enough. AFTER that, you work on other things. Coming out of a corner is FAR more important than going in. Takuma Sato is known to have better braking technique than Michael Schumacher. I've watched him outbrake many other drivers. Which one has seven world drivers titles? Michael S. is the master of the corner exit. Fernando Alonso is more a master of turn entry than MS, but his entire goal is to exit faster... Not enter faster. As long as you are "pretty close" in braking power and stopping distance, you're fine, because braking isn't where the real meat and potatoes of racing is at. It's corner exit. I find it perfectly acceptable to sacrifice some corner entry ability to gain corner exit ability. It makes for faster lap times as long as the brakes are close. The point of the ZTL setup is NOT to increase braking performance. It works just fine for that though. It's primary function is to allow a MASSIVE reduction of un-sprung mass which allows the tire to conform to contours and bumps in the road. You will not find a braking system that's better for coming into a corner that's bumpy. It also has the advantage of being better mid-corner and exiting a corner when bumps or contours are introduced. It gives you choices. One of those choices that is NOT necessarily available in all situations is out braking someone, but when there are bumps, you DO have the ability to out brake someone. You look at the setup and you see brakes. I look at the setup and I see handling. The XB was made for handling. The XB was consistently measured at mid-corner trap speeds that were higher than the IL4600's in FX. This means that the XB doesn't NEED to slow down as much. How many times did you see the XB's being cought in the brake zones in FX? Well, that's where they get caught... But they consistently made up that time through and out of the turns. Why? Because they handle better. Why do they handle better? The geometry and the reduced unsprung mass that the ZTL provides. Give and take. The ZTL system seems to ME to be pretty much a wash on the track (with the eight piston caliper that was engineered to combat fade problems at race pace). On the street, you don't need the big caliper. There's also a lot more bumps on the street than there are on the track. It all adds up to a SUPERB handling street bike that's also very capable on the track. What do you think would happen if a ZTL setup was placed on a bike with more relaxed geometry (particularly the rake, wheelbase and fore/aft weight balance)? I believe that it would prove to be just as effective as the dual rotor setups, but it would also give the advantage of the reduced unsprung mass that helps handling and brakes over bumps (hence the reason most of the other manufacturers are going to smaller lighter rotors). In the race world everyone knows that the two most important things to consider when trying to attain high mid-corner and exit speeds is geometry and un-sprung mass (and always a reduction of overall mass). Cars are different. They don't flip over forwards. Cars need enough braking power that they can slightly overcome the traction of the tires. They need geometry that balances the corner weights as closely as possible so they can get as much braking done by their rear tires as possible. Bikes need the same, but for different reasons. They need to get that weight to the rear because it allows MORE torque to be applied to the front tire before the rear lifts (same as in a car, but the rear doesn't lift in a car). "if there was an overall advantage to be gained from using a single prerimter style disc, you can bet racers would be doing it." That's not true. Before Buell invented the ZTL setup, no one realized the main advantage of a perimeter mounted rotor. It's not braking power. It's the ability to engineer a hollow hub and lightweight spokes. That setup pictured above is NOT a ZTL setup. It's a perimeter mounted rotor. It has NO advantage at all (aside from MASSIVE power in it's dual rotor config, but we've already established that enough is enough in that catagory). What do we need from brakes? Power. Enough that we can faceplant ourselves at any speed (keep in mind that the faster we go, the more rotational inertia there is in the spinning wheel assembly). Stamina. It needs to be able to cool itself enough so the brakes don't fade. Feel. It can't feel like a brick that all of a sudden locks w/o any warning. We need to be able to modulate it effectively. The ZTL setup with the eight piston caliper has all of those. Once you have those stopping DISTANCE is a function of suspension GEOMETRY. Not brakes (as long as we don't grease our brake pads I suppose). The only things that will help an XB to stop shorter is more rake, more mass over the rear wheel or a lower CG. Those things ALL sacrifice handeling in one way or another. Handeling is what allows higher corner EXIT speeds. | ||
| Choptop |
This means that the XB doesn't NEED to slow down as much. no, it means that IF you slow down as much on an XB, you'll be smoked coming out of the corner. That's not true. Before Buell invented the ZTL setup, no one realized the main advantage of a perimeter mounted rotor. It's not braking power. It's the ability to engineer a hollow hub and lightweight spokes. That setup pictured above is NOT a ZTL setup. It's a perimeter mounted rotor. It has NO advantage at all (aside from MASSIVE power in it's dual rotor config, but we've already established that enough is enough in that catagory). well, Buell did not invent the lighter wheel coupled with a perimeter brake. It was around long before Buell. forget it. ya know what, PLEASE go ride the bikes and then report back. it like a bunch of virgins trying to describe the differences between Missionary and Doggy. | ||
| Blake |
"please dont start another flame war about this." A'MEN to that! "do you see any huge webbing or mounting bosses for disc mounting?" Webbing? Yes, it is right there between the five spoke flanges. You know, the part that is missing on a Buell front wheel? Ditto the much beefier hub. Sorry you cannot see it. I can. And the scales certainly can. THAT is what comprised the ZTL wheel, not only is it not subject to torsional loading, but it is not capable of supporting said torsional loading on account of the mass of extra aluminum that is required to do so is no longer there. In its place? Air. Air is much lighter than aluminum.  "like I said, the ZTL system is fine... BUT you can get the exact same thing by... light wheel lighter spokes perimiter brake" That is like saying "you can get a ZTL wheel by using a ZTL wheel." LOL! I have to agree. "one ZTL disc and set up is not enough for track applications. Fine for the street, but when you get going at full tilt boogie on the track, it dont cut it. ... the single ZTL system isnt up to the task at track pace." And you know this HOW?  Let's interject some actual factual information into the discussion shall we? The Hal's and Kosko AMA Formula Xtreme racing machines, highly modified very fast Buell XB12Rs, used the stock front disk. They were braking with the best of them. They even outbraked them on occasion. "thats why all of the racers use dual front discs..." Michael Barnes didn't. He took a 4th place in AMA FX last year. Michael Cicotto didn't. He was just as competitive. And are you meaning to imply that professional racers use stock brakes? Let's compare apples to apples. Serious racers don't use stock brakes. Period. "execpt one.. the disc being set back into wheel away from the rim." That's a pretty big one ain't it. "its been pointed out the if you ding the rim on this set up yer screwed... true. Pretty much though, if you ding the rim on any rim, yer screwed." That's news to me and any number of other folks who have dinged motorcycle rims with no horrible consequence. "you have to ride the bikes and feel the difference. You have to push them REALLY hard to feel it. The follwoing statements are made without emotion or an attitude of "I'm a racer and yer not". Ride a Buell. Brake as hard as you can can going into a corner. Go as fast you can going into a corner. then ride a bike with a standard dual brake set up. go as fast as you can in to a corner, brake as hard as you can. you can brake harder and go faster into the corner with a dual disc set up. </end of no emotion statement> Again, you know this HOW? I've done exactly as you suggest and found that the rear tire gave me the Ben Bostrom wiggle just the same on either machine. Same braking points, same entry speed. And that was a conventional single disk in comparison to a full-on racing dual disk brake system on a CBR600.  Did I need to squeeze the Buell brake lever harder? Yep. But not to the point of being a problem. Now, if I wasn't used to it, I might not like it; I might report that it lacked adequate braking power. But that would not be fact, that would be personal opinion, preference based upon what I was accustomed too. Big difference. And again, you are all about braking braking braking... would you sacrifice a little braking power to gain a lot in grip and suspension performance? I would take your words and turn them right around as follows: The following statements are made without emotion or an attitude of "I'm a racer and yer not". Ride a Buell. Corner as hard as you can can going into and through a bumpy corner. Go as fast you can going into and through a bumpy corner. Then ride a bike with a standard dual brake set up. Go as fast as you can into and through a bumpy corner, corner as hard as you can. you can corner harder and go faster with a Buell ZTL set up. </end of no emotion statement> Makes perfect sense to me. In fact a lot more sense than your version. "any set of brakes can flip a bike at speed." As some bikes are incapable of being flipped, I find that statement questionable. My Dad's old '84 GoldWing for example... I've locked up the front tire on it on dry pavement. There was no danger of flipping. Sticking to the facts might be a better way to make a point versus exaggeration. I've ridden more than one motorcycle whose front brake lever would come clean to the throttle grip without locking up or flipping the bike. Old brakes were sucky compared to the new multi-pot floating disk systems with sintered metal pads. Let's be real here. Some older brake systems had such horrible sponginess due to a bunch of rubber brake line that there is no way they would lock up or flip the bike. Yeah, I'm talking about '80 era bikes too. "if there was an overall advantage to be gained from using a single prerimter style disc, you can bet racers would be doing it." They are, the Buell FX racers are doing it. The Buell FUSA Thunderbike racers are doing it. In ten years or so when the MotoGP bikes start showing up with carbon disked ZTL front brakes/wheel systems, I'll remind you of your arrogant statement. You seem to think that if it hasn't already been applied to racing machines, it must not be worth doing, or that if it was, it would show up instantly. Again, you ignore the patent issue. Again you ignore the marketing issue. Again you ignore the racing technology development issue. Again you ignore the unsprung weight advantage issue. BTW, I've braked at race pace and must not be too shabby at it as that is how I was often able to get by the competition, you know, all those those other guys with dual front disks? I was running a single disk. Worked fine for me. Maybe you are a lot more accomplished track rider than I am. On my '97 Buell Cyclone at Oak Hill Raceway, I'm around 12 seconds or 15% off the outright lap record set by AMA Professional motorcycle racer Ben Spies on his GSXR. I haven't raced in two years. Pretty sure I can get down to around 1:30 with some work and better suspension parts/setup. That was with a bone stock Buell suspension. "But the point is, none of those front brakes are up to racing spec." Neither are any stock brake systems. The carbon carbon brakes DO offer more stopping power than conventional materials, its not all about wieght. I do not have direct expereince with them, at least on a bike. But I have ridden in a car with them, and the owner reports an AMAZING increase in stopping power over conventional set ups. I can attest to nearly having to put my eyes back in their sockets after a full powerr stop from a good clip." That is interesting, since I always understood that it was tire grip that governed braking peak decelleration. Pretty sure steel brake disks will generate the same stopping force as carbon systems. Pretty sure the main advantages are heat tolerance and especially unsprung weight. Try this one on for size there Alan, another of your arguments turned back around on you... when someone outcorners you into and through a bumpy turn (all other things being equal, we are talking equipment abilities, not balls or riding ability), your suspension is either no longer adequate or its unsprung mass is too porky by comparison." See, it ain't ALL only about braking power. "well, Buell did not invent the lighter wheel coupled with a perimeter brake. It was around long before Buell." Really? Pretty sure that is inaccurate. Unless you believe that the Ghezzi and Brian config qualifies as a "lighter wheel. Which would be ridiculous cause just by looking at the above photo I can tell that it isn't a lighter wheel than any other conventional wheel where of course the Buell ZTL front wheel is pounds lighter. Just curious Alan, what concerning the ZTL front brake/wheel system do you see that Buell did do? | ||
| Choptop |
it is a lighter wheel. smaller hub, no bosses for disc mounting, forged. agian, please go ride them different systems and report back. What are ya afraid of? done trying to explain it until ya'll do. good day, drive through | ||
| Imonabuss |
Buell FX and Thunderbike racers did ride both and chose the ZTL over duals. Go watch real racers on Buells with ZTL systems and you will see. Anyone can claim that the brakes aren't good enough. The bullshit stops when the stop watch comes out. Now those are the facts. | ||
| Choptop |
Yep the bullshit stops when you race em. Thats right. How did Buell do in FX again? again, go ride them for yourself and report back. the bullshit stops with expereince. Anything else is guesswork. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Still no flaming here. I appreciate the respect and tone of this discourse... So if I don't go drop a rock out a window, I can't say a rock would drop if I dropped it out a window? You are asking me to take my XB out on the track. Fair enough, I would love to, and would no doubt come back with greater insight. Unfortunately, with 4 kids, spiritual opportunities / responsibilities, and a demanding job, that may not happen until next year after homecoming. Stand by. In the mean time, I have asked you to provide any facts, and you keep providing unsupported personal opinion. I am not saying you have the wrong answer (dual rotor traditional superbike brakes). I am saying you are answering the wrong question (you are answering "what do I do best with"... not "which is the best setup"  . I'll do what I can to get on a track and report back. In the mean time, you do what you can to provide a shred of factual evidence based on physics as to why a wheel 7 pounds lighter would not yield significant benefits (not just limited to braking "feel" on a track bike. We are fully agreed on one thing though. Based on your experience, you find traditional dual rotor setups much more effective for your style of track riding. (Provided you have actually taken an XB out at a race pace for a long enough interval to explore some of its strengths along with it's weaknesses, which I am assuming you have. If so, we agree.) All you have said so far though is that the types of brakes you are used to work better for you. I can't argue with that. High end racing bikes can currently get all the benefits of the stock XB front wheel setup, provided they spend several thousand dollars on a new front wheel made of some exotic material. Kinda cool that I get the performance of a $3000 racing wheel on my $8000 street bike. | ||
| Unibear12r |
So we are all virgins Chop? Between your childish comments, massive assumptions, and constant attempts at technical talk that actualy prove that you DON'T know much about brakes, you've managed to burn your credability to the ground. What makes you think that all the people you are talking to have not been involved with racing, or used many different types of brakes, or changed pads? You havn't a clue. People get into things far more technical and objective than racing and allow their experiences to simply reinforce their preconcieved ideas or myths. Racing draws far more than it's fair share of these kind of people, especially at lower and mid levels. Your background, same as mine, doesn't mean squat unless we know what we are talking about. The perimeter rotor above has NO advantage? You just contradicted yourself with one of your pervious posts above. You CAN tell that some attempt was made to lighten that rim, just not the amount Buell takes it to. The perimeter rim can be just as light as the ZTL. It's just that the ZTL does so with greater safety. Your comment that everyone would be useing the ZTL if it was worthwhile shows you are a poor student of history and human nature. Many real innovations took years to enter racing in the past and the money and urge to win was just as big back then. Chop everything you've repetedly posted again simply states the need for more fade resistance in the current Mark One ZTL. You seem to be lacking some concept understanding here. I for one have to give Buell kudos for making a single disk/caliper brake that almost performs as well as current double disks in fade response. As pad material improves the difference will get smaller.Two ZTLs, perhaps with smaller calipers but perhaps not, would give FAR superior fade resistance and brake feel than any other current production bike, racing or street, and perhaps still some weight advantage. You know they could mount two smaller calipers on a single disk and completely eliminate fade perhaps? Buell hasn't gotten serious yet towards racing applications. Panning the current version of the ZTL is a fools game by a closed mind. I first started following perimeter brakes when Chevrolet tested the concept for the Corvette back in the mid 80s. Turn the caliper of any brake around and put on a perimeter disk and you just gained a lot of swept area. That gives you a lot more braking action for the same force applied, greater brake "feel" and greater fade resistance due to the heat dissapating through the larger disk. The concept is older than that but thats the original reasoning behind it. Chevy didn't like the mounting and didn't think the wow factor was worth the cost either. They didn't try to cut alot of unsprung weight. Buell appears to be the first to understand the true weight advantage and make a good, safe mounting system that is economicly produceable for production bikes. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Blake, you are just too good at this kind of thing. Remind me to never debate you sometime!  | ||
| Blake |
 One is lighter, SIGNIFICANTLY lighter. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Quite true, nor do I care for the disk mounting system on the Guzi either. Looks like they tried to emulate the ZTL in looking light but didn't want to go all the way? Could a patent have a bit to do with that? | ||
| Blake |
"Kinda cool that I get the performance of a $3000 racing wheel on my $8000 street bike." Can I get an "A'MEN!"? How about a couple "Go BUELL!"s? Alan, I don't need to guess about anything to know that a front wheel/brake system that is pounds and pounds lighter than its competition will provide superior suspension performance and overall advantages in lighter weight. There is no guessing involved at all. It is simple physics fact. Take a look at the caliper mounting bracketry on that Ghezzi and Brian front end. Compare it to the Buell's. Which is smaller/lighter? | ||
| Choptop |
so its already disolved into personal attacks. Nice work. again, virgins discussing sex... ya'll dont need someone with direct experience to discuss the therotical. So I will leave you to it. buuuu-bye. (Message edited by Choptop on October 21, 2005) | ||
| Choptop |
One is lighter, SIGNIFICANTLY lighter. and you KNOW this because you are guessing? or have you measured. I think you're guessing. prove me wrong. Prove it to the rest of your readers.. oh wait, they dont care about facts. they have preconcieved notions that that they will take as fact. I never said the Ghezzi wheel was lighter than the ZTL wheel. I said it was lighter than a standard wheel. cary on. really done this time. | ||
| Eeeeek |
"Buell FX and Thunderbike racers did ride both and chose the ZTL over duals. Go watch real racers on Buells with ZTL systems and you will see. Anyone can claim that the brakes aren't good enough. The bullshit stops when the stop watch comes out. Now those are the facts." Not exactly. If you want Buell factory support, you have to run the ZTL front. |
