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M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:36 am: | 
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A agree but there are other "regulars" out there that know the road as well as I do. I'm not touting my ability to keep up. I'm only trying to point out the fact that other people that know the road and don't use the ZTL system have to modify their line or just plain slow down to keep from either going down or crossing the double yellow in certain areas.
I would like to ride a modern 600 through the spars enough to get to know it, set it up and report back... |
Choptop
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:55 am: |
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posted by Blake:
Granted, the ZTL brake does not offer the same total braking power as the dual disk racing brakes on a Japanese Supersport machine. Yes I've ridden one at speed on the track.
please feel free to bash him as you have bashed me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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Alan,
Apparently you missed my post HERE where I stated that
quote:Likewise refusing to recognize that dual 320mm disks with 4-pot calipers provide more braking power than the Buell single 375mm disk with 6-pot caliper would also not be objective.
You must have also missed THIS post where I stated that
quote:Besides offering more braking power, there is another advantage to the dual disk configuration that no one has mentioned. I'm not sure how significant it is, but it would seem to tend to be an advantage.
Just honest objective discussion. That would be contrary to some other venues where a foul concoction of horribly bitter Kool-Aid is regularly served. It may have a stench, and it may be foul, but it is Kool-Aid just the same.
From my view, you've done a fine job yourself of bashing others while ignoring facts, objective analysis and making insulting statements.
I suppose you disagree. 
Rise above it like the man of high character and friend that I know you can be. 
(Message edited by blake on October 28, 2005) |
Choptop
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:08 pm: |
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the we agree in this thread...
here is my statement that caused all the discussion
one ZTL disc and set up is not enough for track applications. |
Choptop
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:09 pm: |
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Yeah for us. We agree.
Go Blake and Alan.
(emphasising the positive  )
backslapping and handies all around. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:51 pm: |
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The ZTL is not enough for track applications?
It seems that some significant measure of success of the ZTL on the track directly refutes that statement. And with the ZTL configuration in its infancy as racing specific technology, I'd not bet against it improving and advancing in great measure in the not-to-distant future. Sorry buddy. Mike Cicotto's 4th place FX finish at Elkhart Lake and his victory over some very notable professional racers proves to me that ZTL is indeed viable for racing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:54 pm: |
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The problem that I see is that you choose to interpret "less braking power" to mean "inadequate braking power." That is false logic and simply untrue for the racing ZTL setups that are out there and performing fine. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:55 pm: |
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What the heck is a "handie"? 
  |
Hattori_hanzo
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 02:24 pm: |
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M1 doesn't drink Kool-aid....in runs through his veins! (Buellberry me thinks...) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 03:39 pm: |
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wow -- how many angels can dance on the head of this pin, anyways? (smile)
Blake -- thanks for the refresher -- I appreciate it (sometimes takes a while for me to learn new tricks)
as an ex-racer, I can attest to the fact that racers, especially pros, are very conservative -- saying that what's on a race bike is prooven to work well is pretty much true -- however, saying that if it ain't on a race bike, it doesn't work just scan -- lots of reasons why a theoretically superior tech isn't on the track yet -- primarly lack of development of the theory (as no one who's paycheck depends on finish order will develop on the job) - - -
ZTL, as it stands, may or may not be sufficient for most tracks -- I'll take the word of those who've tried in that arena -- with the right amount and kind of development, it may, yes? |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 03:42 pm: |
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"And with the ZTL configuration in its infancy as racing specific technology, I'd not bet against it improving and advancing in great measure in the not-to-distant future."
I certainly agree with this statement. Conventional disc brakes have had close to 40 years of development (on motorcycles) to get as good as they are. The ZTL system can only get better at this point. With all the developments in ceramic and composite technology, we may find two discs and calipers to be unnecessary in the future, for racing or otherwise. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 04:10 pm: |
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Blake,
How many times do I have to tell you, and you finally agree that Mike Ciccotto didn't get a 4th at Laguna Seca, it was 4th at VIR in 2004. The best any Buell did this year was 18th, and they were lapped at VIR.
Jim
(Message edited by jima4media on October 28, 2005) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 05:59 pm: |
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Jim, I got it wrong different this time. This time I said "Elkhart Lake". That is the venue where last year Mike beat Picotte, Peagram, Eslick, and Junge. Guess their brakes let them down against the likes of the mighty Buell ZTL?
Good on you for seeking to compare privateers running basically FUSA Thunderbikes to the perennial pros in FX this year. That really shows your effort to be fair and objective. 
No Buell was lapped at VIR this year. No Buell finished the race at VIR this year. Cicotto was out after lap 7. The kind of disingenuous spin you seek to impose on the discussion here may be overlooked, even applauded in other venues, here it will be exposed for the disingenuous irrelevant BS that it is. Or did you just make a mistake?
The simple fact is that no bike with inadequate brakes could be taken to 4th place at VIR in AMA FX or beat the likes of Pascal Picotte, Larry Peagram, Danny Eslick and Mark Junge like Mike did at Elkhart Lake. Period.
That is fact. No BS, no spin, just irrefutable proof that the ZTL indeed will work on the racetrack. Might its race specific design evolve further and improve significantly? Probably.
Hey, it's all good. You still have me cracking up with your hilarious statement that
quote:"When change comes in brakes, whether racing or street, it is likely it will come in materials such as ceramic matrix composites, rather than ZTL style brakes."
Sometimes your humor is so dry and under-cover it sneaks by me. But that was a good one! LOL. I actually thought you were serious at first. LOL!
I'll be reminded of that every time I see a Buell XB or a photo of one.
Yer killin' me here. LOL.   
(Message edited by blake on October 28, 2005) |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:50 pm: |
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Jeff Johnson #138 came in 18th at VIR, and he WAS lapped. Unless you don't know how to read a lap chart.
http://home.ama-cycle.org/prorace/raceres/rr/epoints.asp?cls=fe&snct=P7272&year= 2005
http://home.ama-cycle.org/prorace/raceres/rr/lapchart.asp?cls=fe&snct=P7272&year =2005&type=f&rnum=1
...Since Brembo has introduced the Brembo CCM, the Ceramic Composite Material brake disc, it received in 2003 the Automotive News PACE award, the prestigious acknowledgement awarded annually by Automotive News, the foremost automotive trade publication and by Cap Gemini Ernst & Young, leader in management consulting and IT services. This award is given to the world’s most innovative product in the car components market.
During Motortec in Madrid, last June, Brembo received the Innovation Award, for the same product.
In November 2003, Brembo and DaimlerChrysler AG signed a contract for the establishment of a joint venture, for the manufacture of ceramic brake discs.
Brembo Ceramic Brake Systems SpA, the new company, is now located in the new Science and Technology Park “Kilometro Rosso”, in Stezzano (Bergamo) Italy and in January 2004, has started the production of the first ceramic brake discs....
http://www.brembo.com/Brembo/Templates/History.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALU RL=%2fENG%2fAboutBrembo%2fCompanyOverview%2fHistory%2f&NRNODEGUID=%7b5F3AB11B-8B 00-44A7-8A29-12718C95EF07%7d&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest |
Jon
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
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I plan on putting Brembo ceramic disc brakes on my wife's Buick! |
Reducati
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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wow...and all i said was "look familiar?" |
Fdl3
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 02:46 pm: |
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Reducati: [In the best motherly voice I can imitate] Young man, just WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?! |
Buellin_ri
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 02:57 pm: |
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Because this topic is sooo long should we change the title to war and peace? |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 04:17 pm: |
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More like "War & War" |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 05:26 pm: |
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My bad Jim, I didn't see Jeff's entry. But as I said above...
"Good on you for seeking to compare privateers running basically FUSA Thunderbikes to the perennial pros in FX this year. That really shows your effort to be fair and objective."
Never ever miss a chance to spin Buell in as poor a light as possible, right Jim? Interestingly, the real story there is that it is darn impressive that Jeff was able to even qualify for the FX race on a FUSA Thunderbike based machine. That says a LOT about how well the basice package works on the track. Way to go Jeff!
I'm glad you enjoy the Brembo web site. Lacking an actual motorcycle to ride, I guess surfing the internet is the next best thing? I'll be out riding in the real world among those thousands and thousands of darn ZTL equipped bikes that apparently don't qualify in your mind as "a change in brakes" for motorcycles. LOL!
That kind of blind analysis ranks right up there with the old "Buell is going out of business" stuff we used to hear from some of the naysayers.
So I guess you weren't joking after all? LOL! That's even more hilarious. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 05:28 pm: |
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Here's what is really exciting...
A ceramic ZTL brake disk. Even less unsprung mass. Cool. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
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I was just pointing out your obvious mistake, and not trying to "spin Buell in a poor light".
Facts are facts. Results are results.
"Fair and objective" used in a sentence about racing? Hahaha.
I supposed you use "Gentlemanly" also...
"You go first"
"No, you go first, I really insist"
Hahaha.
If you put a race bike on a race track, you had better expect to race, and not have people make excuses for your performance.
Oh, and be sure and attack the messenger for any bad news you might happen to hear.
Hahaha.
A ceramic ZTL brake. - Who is going to make that might I ask? No seriously.
I'd like to see it happen, but I don't think it will.
(Message edited by jima4media on October 29, 2005) |
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