| Author | Message | ||
     Whiskeytango |
I found this article posted and was in need of a brake-bleeding so I decided to try it. So far I think I'm having mixed results but I would appreciate some opinions. I had a hard time getting a seal on the bleed-nipple valve using the 1/4" clear fuel hose I bought at Advance Auto parts even when using aluminum wire tightened by hand and with pliers up to the breaking point, a medium sized zip-tie and an old worm-screw hose clamp. Nothing seemed to seal it with the brake-wrench in place until I just held it very steadily with my hand while my wife reluctantly helped me in the garage only to be rewarded with a fine spray of oil on her shirt when we bled the banjo bolt. She didn't think that was funny and I will pay I’m sure. The brakes seem a little firmer, but I understood that they can be very firm if done correctly because of the SS lines. Mine seemed fine until I changed levers; now my brake lever is not adjustable and I need all the firmness out of the lever that I can get! What can I use to get an airtight seal? Different I.D. tube? I better clamp? I'm waiting until morning to finish Henrick's procedure, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right! Because of the problems I mentioned, it took me about an hour and a half of cursing and wiping brake fluid off of my frame and that can't be right. Plus, I was still seeing tiny, tiny bubbles after about 15 rounds of squirting and levering, the lever just hasn't gotten as firm as I expected. Any tips? Thanks for looking! WT Posted on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 10:38 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I actually like bleeding brakes - after finding "The Way" (pun intended). Get a 50 cc syringe and a 5-6" piece of clear plastic tubing; I.D. should fit the tip/nipple of the syringe and the bleeder nipple of course. Attach the tubing to the syringe, making sure the fit is air-tight (a skinny wire tie cinched tight around the hose/nipple will help). After completely draining the system, remove the bleeder nipples and wrap the treads with a few wraps of teflon tape - explanation follows. Fill the syringe with new brake fluid. Make sure the keep the hose submerged in the brake fluid while filling; if it starts "slurping" you'll get lots of little bubbles in the new fluid = more air to bleed out of the system after filling. 1) Put the wrench on the bleeder nipple and a rag under it. Flip the syringe/hose so the hose points up; press syringe piston to expell most of the air and completely fill the tube with brake fluid. Slip the hose over the bleeder nipple trying to avoid air in the hose. Hold the syringe above the brake caliper - any air remaining should rise to the syringe itself. 2) Loosen the bleeder nipple and inject fluid into the system until you see the fresh fluid in the reservoir - fill it half way. 3) Now, here's the real trick; without tightening the bleeder nipple, pump the brake lever - it will pump fluid back into the syringe. Don't pump more than there is always enough fluid in the reservoir to prevent pumping air into the system. Keep alternating between injecting fluid from the brake caliper and pumping it back out with the brake lever. The flow will carry most of the air out either at the brake caliper, where it will rise in the syringe so it doesn't get injected back into the system, or out into the reservoir. The teflon on the bleeder nipple threads will keep fluid from seeping out and air from seeping in around the treads. 4) Tap the brake line to dislodge any remaining bubbles and pump back and forth a few more times to flush them out of the system. Tighten the bleeder nipple. 5) Sometimes air will get trapped in the banjo bolt at the master cylinder. As Blake said, keeping gentle pressure on the brake lever and loosening the banjo bolt a hair, until fluid seeps out, may get rid of that air. A good investment is a banjo bolt with a bleeder nipple in it. That way you can use the syringe to flush that part of the system as well. 6) put the lid on the reservoir and let the bike sit overnight. Tap the brake lines again and repeat step 3), but make sure you pump from brake system to syringe as the first step. Air trapped at the top of the caliper will be pushed out. Air trapped at the master cylinder will stay where it is for this first pump -gravity, don't ya know. All this sounds laborious and time consuming, but once you're set up, it'll take less than 15 minutes to do a dual caliper front brake set-up to perfection. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
I'm thinkin your hose is an RCH too big (RCH = little bit) -- my attempts to fasten the hose to the bleeder nipple mirrored yours, that is, no joy -- I got a LLLlllloooooonnnnnnnnggggg piece of tubing, secured it to the fork leg so I could move the syringe a little without imparting motion to the end of the tube (on the nipple), held it on the nipple with one hand, opertaed the syringe with the other, and scratched the itch on my nose . . .. . well, I guess I didn't scratch the itch, did I? I've found that squeezing the lever, securing it in that position overnight with a velcro-backed band or some such, also helps -- not sure why, as it doesn't seem like it should, but it does ymmv btw, having a female personage assist in the brake bleeding process is contra-indicated, in my experience -- it's one of those tasks that's tough to do by yourself, but quick enough that you're loathe to ask your buddy to drive 20 minutes to help, so it's tempting to ask you wife/girlfriend to help -- last time I received brake-bleeding backup from the distaff side of the family is when my daughter was 15.5 years old, and really wanting to learn how to drive the 31 ford -- she patiently depressed the brake pedal for 45 minutes til we got her right since that time, armed with her license, well, she's a busy young lady ;-} | ||
| Whodom |
I've found that squeezing the lever, securing it in that position overnight with a velcro-backed band or some such, also helps -- not sure why, as it doesn't seem like it should, but it does Bomber- clamping down on the brake lever greatly increases the fluid pressure in the brake line, which makes any remaining air bubbles much smaller since the air is compressible and the brake fluid is not. This allows the smaller air bubbles to fit through openings they couldn't otherwise fit through and rise to the master cylinder and into the air space in the reservoir. It's a good trick for getting the last teensy bit of air out of the line. | ||
| Whiskeytango |
I'll try a zip-tie on the lever for a few nights to see if it helps. I took it for a 15 mile ride this morning in the city and on the highway. The brakes seem much better, they still are not by any means "hard". The other thing is that they seem to sometimes change. When I pulled off the highway after about 5 miles my levers felt squishier than when I had been riding in town. After some city riding, they felt fairly firm again! Is there still air in my system? I used Valvolene SynPower "exceedes DOT 3 and DOT 4" brake fluid that I got at Advance Auto Parts. Should I try it again with something made for motorcycles? Thanks again, WT | ||
| Bomber |
WT -- very likely still air in there -- my Y2K MaDeuece was delivered with a decidedly limp-wristed front brake lever -- all the SOP bleeding the the world wouldn't get it any better -- I read, and ignored, Good Henrik's procedure, til one day I just couldn't take it any more, ordered the syringe (shoulda seen the looks I got from the mailperson!), and had at it . . . . result, after spewing a couple a tablespoons of Brake Fluid around the Entropy Lab (AKA< Garage) and myself, is a lever act the way I wanted it to in the first place -- big grins try the zip tie dealio, and then, if still unsatisfied, repeat H's procedure -- you'll be surprised at how much air lurks in there let's not talk baout air hinding in the REAR break line, shall we? as for fluid choice, use the grade spec'd on the resevoir cover -- I've always used brnad name products, and try to avoid store brand stuff (not at all familiar with the brand you used, so I ain't dissing it nor cheering, either one) Who -- thanks for explaining why this old wive's tale works -- never thought of the bubble size being affected by the pressure in the system -- wishing I'd paid more attention in all the science classes I ditched (spoekn with strains of "smokin in the boys room" playin in the background) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Try using a soft vacuum line instead of a regular rubber hose. That allowed me to secure a small clamp around the line and nipple enough to truly compress and make an airtight seal. Using a 2 way pronged fitting, I secured the vacuum line to one side, then stepped it up on the other with clear fuel line to the syringe. | ||
| Whiskeytango |
I'll try that too! Thanks! WT | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thats a darned clever approach. With a sufficient length of tubing (which I think would help the process and not hurt) you could even have all the parts right up there by the brake cylinder so you don't need eyes in the back of your head. Just hang the syringe (pointing down) off the right grip with a loop of wire. Just make sure the tubing always goes uphill. It will waste a lot less brake fluid also, once it comes out clear I have to keep pumping nice clear fluid through until the bubbles stop. | ||
| Henrik |
I've never had any trouble getting the hose to seal around the nipple (and now that I've Jinxed myself ...), but I'm using some of the hose I got with MityVac pump. I bought that one to bleed brakes, but didn't like how it works so I came up with the syringe method. I still use the MityVac to drain the system though. That said, the size hose I use is a pretty darn tight fit - takes quite a bit of pushing to get it over the nipple. I think Wycked is spot on with the suggestion of using a hose of softer, more flexible material. As for your "soft" brakes - hmmm. Like Bomber said, most likely you still have air in the system. Maybe some by the master cylinder despite loosening the banjo bolt. A master cylinder banjo bolt with a bleeder nipple is a really good investment. I believe I bought mine through Russell and Spiegler, but I'd suggest giving out good sponsors a call and see if they can help you out first. As for why the brake lever feel changes - I'm drawing a blank. I've had that happen on track when I try to into corners hard on the brakes (not that that makes me any faster - hmmmm), but that's most likely because the brake fluid starts to boil. Doesn't sound like that's your problem. I guess, if you still have air bubbles in the caliper, then heat would make the bubble expand, and require more lever travel to reach same fluid pressure, which could cause the lever to feel soft. Of course I could just be rambling. You can try taking the master cylinder off the handlebars and tilt it slightly so the reservoir and the master cylinder is higher than the brake line - then tap lightly on the brake line to release any bubbles - then work the brake lever, again to try to make some fluid flow back and forth and release bubbles. I've done this with the lid off the reservoir, but it's a balancing act, and DOT 4 will eat the paint, so be careful. I guess I should admit to only doing it on the track bike where the paint (and the tank itself) is shot anyway  Oh, and I guess I should have mentioned somewhere, that I've taken to wrapping a rag around the banjo bolt when I do the loosening "thing." Never could find a master cylinder banjo bolt for the S2 that also had the bleeder nipple. Hope some of these suggestions help. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
oops, I forgot to mention that, when you are pushing fluid into the system with the syringe, have the top resting on the master cylinder, or you'll get brake fluid in yer hair -- unless, of course, you LIKE the sorta thing ( a little dab'll do ya) I, too, use the hose from the Mityvac, which is a tight fit on the nipple, and extremely pliable as well | ||
| Whiskeytango |
Well, sitting overnight with a zip tie holding the lever really worked! The lever is firmer now than when I got the bike. I rode 35 mikes and no chance in the brake feel! I'll still try again when I can get a new Mity-vac line for my Henrik syringe-set-up! I ended up using my old Mity-vac line when I re-tapped in the morning, but it was 10 years old and woefully neglected. I'm sure this procedure will make my rear brake feel better too when I get it set up correctly--It really does feel pretty wooden on my XB12s! Thanks for all the help and tips, WT (Message edited by WhiskeyTango on October 05, 2005) | ||
| Whiskeytango |
One more question: When I called Mityvac to order some new lines, I was told that the I.D. was 1/4". Will 3/16th" clear tubing be too small or just right to fit the bleeder nipple if I get something really flexible and nice like this: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5 Fname=7510&product%5Fid=26053 Thanks again, WT | ||
| Pcmodeler |
Hmmm.....I've been having the same problems and I know it's gotta be air, despite also trying the syringe method. I'll have to try the zip tie as well. | ||
| Henrik |
Warren; not sure about exact nipple size, but maybe a visit to your local auto parts store would net you something usable? Don't know any specifics about tubing, the stuff in your link looks nice though. About your rear brake; can be a point of major frustration in and of itself; to really get it bled properly you may have to take the caliper off and move it around to get the air to rise to somewhere it'll exit the system. Quite a chore but worth it. Still, don't expect pavement wrinkling braking power. Buell rear brakes are known for being high effort little effect. Which I personally prefer in a "sporting" bike, while others hate it. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
I managed to get acceptable performance out of my rear brake by blueprinting the lil dear -- rebuilt carefully, braided line (thanks AL!), and make sure you lube the pins the thing moves on -- not pavement wrrinkling, as HEnrik calls it, but certainly better than it was new, and ALMOST acceptable to me -- I LOVE brakes | ||
| Whiskeytango |
OK, I scavenged a piece of tubing from a can of Fix-a-flat and it fit perfectly. I trimmed it to about 3 inches and now with the aid if a short wire hangar, I can do front and back, by myself. Test ride again today! Thanks for all the help guys! Bomber, how much was the rear SS line? WT | ||
| Bomber |
WT -- no recolection, although I can tell you the seat number of the last Quicksilver Messanger Service concert I attended (sorry, bud) -- ping Al at American Sport Bike -- he's aces, great products, quick shipping, expert advice | ||
| Whiskeytango |
Bomber-Will do! When I can afford it, I'll try the Lyndall gold pads and get the whole shebang with bleeder valves and SS all from AL because American Sport Bike does TOTALLY ROCK!!! Test ride was awesome! This method really works!!! I'll be pimpin my 60cc setup for any sucka foolish enough to ask me about it! Thanks again, WT | ||
| Bigblock |
I always used this method before I got my mit-vac, I used it on cars and bikes with pretty good succes, but I have found that for me, the mity vac works better on systems that are being difficult, I guess you could say I am working backwards comparedd to Henrik! |
