| Author | Message | ||
     Eeeeek |
Blake, What we need here is JVV's input. He's got an S1 with 115 rwhp and 110 ft/lbs of torque. He rides the snot out of it. Also, lots of people assume going for HP means loosing torque...not true. The bolt has, what, 60 ft/lbs and 75 rwhp. I'm sure you could start building the engine witht he design of making it rev higher and get it up to 90 rwhp with out much difficulty. A few bigger tricks would place it over 100 rwhp and torque would certainly not go down; if anything, it would go up. My problem with this is it costs money. Either drop the price or give me the power I want from the factory (I'd prefer option #2). Aa Aaron pointed out, there is a point of diminishing returns with raw torque. Too much torque and it's a tricky bike to ride. High end HP tends to be easier to reign in. Vik | ||
| Jrh |
Like i already said,i really,really like the new S model,but since this power dicussion is still going on here's some numbers from the latest Motorcyclist.I have no idea how accurate they are or how they came up with them,but it is at least a comparison of numbers,not just opinions. Wet Weight Top gear roll on 60-80mph XB9R 455lb 4.73 seconds Monster S4 459lb 4.11 CBR600F4i 435 4.12 Sv650 428 5.13 YZF-R6 426 4.24 YZF-R1 441 2.69 All are 2001 models except the Buell and the R1 is a 2002. I had a 2001 R1+there aint no way on earth anyone can convince me it was too much power.If you've ridden one and don't like the power+lightweight thats perfectly OK with me,but if you never rode one you might want to give it a try.Or maybe not,as long as you're happy thats what counts. | ||
| Davegess |
JRH thanks for the numbers. You would need to know if that was a full tnak or not and than how much each tank holds. At 8 pounds the amount of fuel make a difference. Cycle worl weigh each bike ready to roll minus gas which is probqbly the best way to do it. | ||
| Spike |
Here's a few dumb questions I could probably answer on my own if I did a little research: What's the URL for Nallin's website? What does this $500 1250cc kit include? What sort of numbers would one expect from this 1250cc kit? Thanks in advance. Mike L. '99 Cyclone | ||
| Court |
I agree. More exotic stuff than an MV Agusta S4 and narcotically well balanced. I, personally, am very pleased at what I perceive as a wise and appropriate move on Buells part. Frankly, I want to hear more of Steve Anderson's riding impressions. I'll never ride at that level, but it speaks volumes to the bikes capabilites and how far they exceed that of most of the folks who will own Firebolts...Father Gess, of course, excluded. Court | ||
| Court |
Much good is afoot......"follow the light"  | ||
| Blake |
Dave, To be honest, the current stable of 600 repliracers from Japan weigh in anywhere from 420 to 435 lbs wet, depending on which of the four you measure. The XB9's are significantly lighter than the reigning world superbike champion Duc 998 and also the prior world champion Honda RC51. So the XB9's are certainly not "tanks".  That kind of statement smacks of a Cecilian exagreration if every there was one. RD: "I think that Buells in general need more power from the factory and not from us dumping more than $2000.00 in modes." No doubt, more power would attract more buyers; however do you have ANY doubt that if Buell released a reliable XB12 series with 100 RWHP, that owners would STILL be compelled to seek out the skills and wares of people like those at Axtell, Cycle-Rame, and Nallin Racing? For some, it just doesn't matter what kind of HP the production bike provides. To some, more is always better. To some, it's an enthusiasm and a hobby to modify their engine to a higher level of performance. "I could total understand if the new bike weighed 420 wet weight." That equates to a 34 lb weight reduction. A reduction of thirty four pounds, for the average rider, equates to a 5 RWHP difference on a drag strip. So you seem to effectivley be saying that if the bike had just 5 more RWHP, you would have no criticism of it? "Don't give us fake numbers showing us 385 pds. We are not dumb. That is like saying guess how much money I made last year before taxes!! Looks good on paper but in reality... " I used to question the integrity of the published "dry" weights too. I've since come to learn that pretty much ALL manufacturers publish a dry weight (actually an uncrated shipping weight) for their motorcycles. The dry weight excludes most fluids and the battery. Published dry weights are all pretty much 60 to 70 lbs below the actual wet weights. Buell then is no different from its competitors in that respect, and for comparison's sake the dry weights are a very valid parameter. "First loose the iron cylinders and put in Nikel Silicon cylinders. That would give the bike 10% more power across the board." I too like the all aluminum nickel-silicon-carbide plated cylinders. But not because they yield 10% more power; that is simply not true, at least in a new engine properly broken in. "get ride of the 5 speed and put in 6 or maybe even 7 speed trans.. This would help make up for the lack of power that the bike has." A sixth gear overdrive? Okay maybe; I'd like to be able to cruise at 80 mph and 3000 rpm and still have my normal 5 gear ratios left intact. Seven gears!? No thank you! "Last, let this engine rev...With after market springs you can already get 7500rpm without float. So with all the talk about the new NASCAR springs they should at least be able to get 8500 rpm out of them. Lets have some revs." No need for "aftermarket springs", the XB9's already offer a 7500 rpm redline.  Being able to rev to 8500 would make a GREAT race kit option. "But for now they want to much money for an underpowered bike..." Not in my opinion. We are talking about a very exotic, low production quantity motorcycle that is made in America. If budget is your main concern, yes, buy something else. If peak HP is your main concern, maybe you should take a test ride before writing off the XB9's. If after a test ride, you are underwhelmed with the power output and are not keen on the idea of spending another chunk of change for aftermarket go fast parts, then buy something else. "And for years everyone has been asking for more power. Can everyone be wrong in tell BUell that there bikes need more power. Not less. Less is not more in this case. We want, we need more power..." There's that Cecilian exaggeration again. Please don't think that "everyone" wants more power. There are millions of people riding around on bikes with weaker engines that totally disagree with you on that point. I think even Mr. Gess, crazed hooligan that he is, made it VERY clear that he is more than satisfied with his Firebolt's stock production level of performance. Eeeeek, Can you imagine someone who was used to UMJ type high revving performance getting onto a bike like JVV's and out of habit wacking the throttle open at 3 grand in first or second gear? LOL! I just don't think, ESPECIALLY in an XB chassis, anywhere near that kind of torque could ever see the showroom floor in the form of a production bike. Too much liability risk there methinks. I agree, give the XB9's a race kit that allows them to rev to 8500 rpm and make 100 RWHP. That would be great if it were possible... "Hello Brian? What's that you say? Been there done that? COOOWALL!  | ||
| Blake |
Update/Clarification on the XB9 race kit. For $936 the Nallin XB9 1050 cc Big Bore Kit includes... (2) Nicasil Lined Millenium Cylinders (1050cc) (2) Nallin Hurican Pistons (10.5:1 CR) with total seal rings The kit utilizes existing stock cams, stock heads, and the Stock ECM with 7500 rpm rev limit. Though not the optimum approach, you can even use your stock exhaust system if you gut the muffler appropriately. Additional parts required... (1) Power Commander III (Nallin Racing is developing and will be providing a PCIII map for their kit) Optional parts... (1) For optimum performance (and aesthetics) you will want a performance exhaust system. This will soon be released in a joint Nallin/Force effort. The Nallin Racing Signature Series exahust system by Force will not be obnoxiously loud, more like the current Borla or comparable slip-on for a 1200 Buell. Results have already been documented showing power in the 100 RWHP range. Not enough? Nallin Racing also offers a 1200 cc kit. Send your cases to Nallin Racing and for $325 plus shipping they will bore them as required and send them back to you with the 1200 kit. For $875 plus parts they will handle the job from start to finish; just deliver your XB9 to their shop in Shreveport and drive it home when they are finished. What about the factory race kit? It is imminent and will include the typical race intake (K&N filter), race headers, race muffler, and a race ECM. Rumor has it that the ECM "may" bump the rev limit to 8 grand, but that is still just speculation. Okay, now I want one!!! One XB9S in black please! | ||
| X1glider |
Oooo, Blake that is awesome to hear. What's the bore and stroke for those engine kits? Nallin's services seem to be a much better value than most other shops and the board's testimonies prove it. It's too bad the factory hasn't jumped on this bandwagon first. I think they are missing out and moreso if they don't offer a big bore kit at all. And yes, make mine all black too. | ||
| Ramon |
Two quesitons: 1. Any word on a fully faired body kit? 2. Can anyone (with photoshop skills)swap the R's tail section with the S's. I would like to see what an xb9r looks like with an S tail section. thanks -ramon | ||
| Ramon |
Another question, Court where is that picture from? Dealer show? | ||
| Xgecko |
Like this  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
JRH posted some numbers, I'll add one just for fun: VROD Wet Weight Top Gear Roll on 60-80 620 pounds 4.05 seconds Faster than all the ones JRH quoted except for the R1. Not bad for a BIG HEAVY CRUISER......... | ||
| José_Quiñones |
That looks COOL! How about painting the front pulley and the belt covers white to match the rest of the plastic? | ||
| Court |
Obviously someone who never bought a Buell for $16,995 in 1990 | ||
| Nxtr |
Court, Much good is afoot......"follow the "light" I am hoping that the above quote may have something to do with an earlier correspondence FEB 02 regarding paint protection, The fix works well is holding up great in this Mississippi Heat, 111 with heat index today. TM, Nick | ||
| Buellzebub |
in 90 buells were hand built and worth the money... don't get me wrong court, but a great deal has changed since then. i can buy a 160 hp bike straight outa the dealership now for the same cost as a race kitted fireblast. i just aint a fan of inline fours | ||
| Nxtr |
I figure out how to edit my profile but not how to get rid of messages I want to remove. TM, Nick | ||
| Eeeeek |
Hold it a second there, Blake. Ducati publishes WET weights for their bikes. The standard 998 weighs 436 lbs full of fluid and the R model a mere 404. That's a bit less than the Firebolt. I agree that 110 ft/lbs would probably be too much torque. 110 hp, though....ahhhhh. Someone else said the XB's weigh less than 600's...not true. In fact, it weighs more than the R1, GSXR1000 and the 954, never mind the 600's which weigh less. I'm still trying to figure out the bike. I know my X1 and TL weigh about the same; yet, the X1 feels much lighter (mass centralization). I'm guessing the XB's feel lighter than they are too and I'm guessing the boat anchor, errr, muffler, weighs about 20 pounds, too. Exotic? If the goal is to remain a niche bike, than keep it priced high and production numbers low. I can't see H-D wanting to stick to low production numbers, though. Buell, being a division of H-D, no longer has the "hand built in a garage by a genious who put it all on the line" mystique. Vik | ||
| Raymaines |
Court, are you saying that because an S1 was even worse a bargain than the Firebolt we should all feel good about the price of the Firebolt? That's really bad logic. I think $10,000 is too much for a bike that isn’t really all that exotic or rare. A lump of an engine in a mass produced bike with cheap plastic body work (i.e. no paint) doesn’t deserve 10G’s. And please don’t kid yourself about the bike being mass produced. It is "mass produced", even if the quantities are relatively small. BMC would love to sell a zillion of them if they could just find a zillion myopic customers with Titanium VISA cards. These bikes have small production numbers not because it's an exotic and the price is high but rather because the typical potential customer doesn't think it's a good value. You can buy one if you see things differently but don’t try to tell us it’s a bargain. I like the bike and I might buy one myself, but it isn’t a bargain. At a street price of $5,300 for a Suzuki SV 650, $7,500 for a Kawasaki ZRX 1200R and $10,800 for a Hayabusa you can claim to have a bargain. At $10,000 MSRP plus dealer mark up a XB9 (either R or S) ain’t a bargain. Nice bike but no bargain. It really doesn’t matter what somebody paid for something at some time in the past. That was then and this is now. Times have changed. The BMC of 12 years ago is dead and gone, the competition is stiffer and the potential customer is more savvy. The XB is a nice bike but not an exotic and no bargain. | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
Xgecko, hows about a S with an R tail and R handlebars, Yellow please | ||
| Rd350 |
You have to give it to Blake and his hard work on this website. He loves it!! I bet if I started talking trash about the Crock Hunter he would be all over it.... Cricky, did you see the size of that Buell. With the lack of HP from the factory. She sure is a beauty though.. Any if anyone thinks that Buells are exotic you are making me laugh so hard it hurts. Last time I checked I couldn't even get the Buell dealer to trade my S-1 for another Buell. If Buells are so exotic why wouldn't anyone buy my exotic bike? Buells will never be a MV Agusta, Lavarda, Bimota, Ducati, Triumph, or BMW. It will always be just a Harley Davidson. And if you think I am wrong how many times has someone looked at your bike and asked if it was a HD. And you have to tell them Buell. And just for fun I tried to get my Blast traded in on a new XB and the dealer total me no..So that is telling me same old bullshit.. No one wants Buells not even the dealers. Thanks for trying. | ||
| Raymaines |
<Snip, never mind. Sorry I mentioned it> | ||
| José_Quiñones |
  People vote with their $$$$. Apparently Dealers value a $17+k Vrod to the tune of 8,524 units shipped so far this year. Probably every single one of them has been sold. 2,435 Buell "Big Twins" have been shipped so far this year, some still are collecting dust at dealers, few have probably been sold at MSRP+. Most will be sold at a discount. | ||
| Rd350 |
Jose, Thanks for info. It would be interesting to see how much money in accessories and parts are strickly Buell related products. And from your numbers we all know that about 1500 units of Blast's for 2002 have gone to the new riding school for HD. I would be interested to see how many bikes are the new XB in those numbers. I know right now that there are still 3 big twin 2002 models at the local dealer collecting dust and 12 Blasts that are also 2002 that are not going anywere. And the dealer is trying to give great deals on these bikes but no one is jumping at them. Thanks... | ||
| Imonabuss |
Vik, Sure, Ducati publishes "wet" weights for their motorcycles...however, they're not real. Check them against the actual measured weights in magazines and you'll find I'm right. So which is correct, using exactly the same dry weight procedure as the rest of the industry so people can compare apples to apples, or lying that you have a lighter wet weight than you do? Somebody on this web clued me in to this Ducati trick, and I checked it out...he was right. | ||
| Spike |
Not nearly as many times as they've asked if it was a Ducati. I can't tell you how many people I've met who absolutely love the bike, even if they don't know what it is. My Cyclone may not be exotic, but it's a lot more exciting than any other sportbike. Mike L. '99 Cyclone | ||
| Josh |
I've had arguments with people trying to convince them it's a Harley (and not an extremly customized Sporty). Most people don't venture a guess and just ask WTF it is. The #1 guess is BMW. Come to think of it no one has guessed it was anything other than a BMW. People either know what it is (practically no one who doesn't own one), have no clue or think its German. No one has ever asked if it was an HD and most don't believe me when I describe it as one. Josh 99 S3T Billet Metallic (silver) / Nuke Frame / PM Wheels (hmmm and every one who's guess BMW saw it with the bags on. Coincidence?) | ||
| Xgecko |
the yellow's not quite right but this is close as I can get it on my laptop.  | ||
| Blake |
"Hold it a second there, Blake. Ducati publishes WET weights for their bikes. The standard 998 weighs 436 lbs full of fluid and the R model a mere 404. That's a bit less than the Firebolt." Eeeeek, Got fuel? (gotta read that fine print carefully) As to classifying the XB9's as "exotic", I guess I could relent to calling a Buell twin a "semi-exotic." Point being that the bikes are very rare. To me a Dodge Viper is a semi-exotic car. For some buyers finding a level of uniqueness and exclusivity is very attractive. I'm one of them. Some buyers also find Buell's "American" origin attractive. I'm one of them. If Honda were the manufacturer of the XB9's and produced vast quantities of them like they do with the F4i, I wouldn't pay as much. We might also consider that Buell at this time is unprepared to ramp up production 500% to 50,000 units per year (round numbers). When they do, assuming demand is strong, it will probably be via a steady conservative (no more than 20%/year) process (~9 years); the prices will then likely fall more in line with the UJM competition. But until then, they price the bikes to sell out as soon as they hit the showroom floor? The question any good marketeer asks is not "How much is the product worth?", but rather "What will the consumer pay?". Seems to me there are PLENTY of consumers willing to pay list price. Personally, I think they are getting their money's worth. RD, I am a HUGE fan of the Crock Hunter.  But bub, if you want to diss him and pick a fight with me, please start a new topic. And BTW, it's "krykie". "Buells will never be a MV Agusta, Laverda, Bimota, Ducati, Triumph, or BMW." Agreed, and DARN happy about it too. Buell is VERY unique among motorcycle manufacturers. RD, Consider how many of those companies you mentioned began selling motorcycles commercially just 8 years ago? Talk to us on this subject again in another 4 years and I guarantee the situation will be quite a bit different. To the enthusiasts in Europe (a major target for Buell's marketeers), an American sportbike might be viewed a bit differently. "It will always be just a Harley Davidson." Lemme think about that point again... Harley builds cruisers... Buell builds sport bikes... Nope sorry. A Buell motorcycle is NOT a Harley. "And if you think I am wrong how many times has someone looked at your bike and asked if it was a HD. And you have to tell them Buell."  Uh... Never. Rather, I get hog owners calling my Cyclone a "crotch rocket", and the typical curious individual asking what kind of bike it is, sometimes offering a guess; they've never guessed it was a "Harley". Well, it does day "Buell" in big white letters right on the tank. Kinda hard to miss. I don't have any problem telling people about the history of Buell and the roots of the engine, and that HDC owns BMC, but I never refer to my Cyclone as a "Harley", cause it isn't. |
