| Author | Message | ||
     Aaron |
It's *always* hype. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Blake, Aaron and the rest. Kina what I figured. thats why I asked.  | ||
| X1glider |
If Buell wants help with noise control, they should look to composites. There are plenty out there that meet the structural, durability, stability and temp requirements. Just look at the automakers. Why is it used in suspension and engine parts as well as knee bolsters and door panels, among many other things? It meets all requirements and dramatically reduces NVH (and weight). From a production standpoint, injection molding reduces cost due to little or no post molding processes like finish machining. Some gaskets can even be eliminated. How about composite pump and cam gears? It's already being done on some Saabs and Fiats. It takes a little load off of the lube's requirements too. Some composites even dissipate heat quicker and conduct more evenly than 1000 series aluminum (aluminium for you Brits).  Why not composite covers including valve covers and pushrod tubes? Primary cover too. The possibilities are endless. Get rid of the chain and associated parts and run a belt primary and dry clutch. Then we can run REAL gear lube in the tranny instead of that compromise of a fluid called Sport-trans. Unfortunately, many think, "Bah! Plastic! Disposable bikes!" Not me. I've designed a couple dozen composite parts in my short time on earth but I keep up with tech even when I don't need to. (What a geek, eh?) I am constantly amazed at what some people are creating with composites. Motorcycle industry: get on the bandwagon will you? Now, as for the exhaust noise...get those rpms up like the ricers do. I think the somewhat non-diectional wavelenths we operate in are killing Buell and HD when it comes to passing tests. Nevertheless, I'm stoked on the idea of an XB12R. But I haven't exactly had the opportunity to ride a 9 yet either, just sat on it. Thanx Houston dealers for not participating in demos!  | ||
| Buellzebub |
first ya take a fireblast, then you take a ktm v2 motor... mix and you have what i'd really like to see buell do. lets see now the ktm v2's envelope is smaller, the weight is much lighter and it is reliable [won paris/dakar this year], also it can make real power. couple this engine with the suspension magic of erik's latest machine and it could be a real world beater. i truly hope buell pulls something extraordinary out of the bag this year, otherwise i can see a ktm in my garage next spring along side the S1 | ||
| Blake |
X1G, Cost of composite covers? | ||
| Raymaines |
Nope. 950 V-2. Page 56, July 2002 issue of Motorcyclist. I'll scan and post the artical if you want. RaY2K M2 | ||
| Raymaines |
Blake: Did you just erase a post that asked if the Dakar winning bike was a single? Now my answer to your question looks dumb hanging out there all by itself. I’m fully capable of looking stupid all by myself, I don’t need your help. | ||
| X1glider |
Cost of a composite cover? In production quantities, much less than an aluminum part. But then again, what will they sell it for? Don't forget, composite doesn't necessarily mean CF. It could be zytel, nylon 6/6, ABS, metallic/plastic combos or even natural fiber composites like corn flax resin (John Deer makes tractor panels out of that!). Parts consolodation is another advantage. Think of no more multi-piece brackets. We could probably shave off 25-40 lbs easy on our bikes depending on how far they want to go. | ||
| Elvis |
Does anyone remember this from MCN? I personally put more faith in the annonymous posting. It makes more sense and I remember wondering at the time if MCN was partly influenced by BWB's board related to a hoped for sport tourer. I'd like to hear some real, logical speculation from some of the very knowledgeable resources on this board. I think most people are leaning toward the idea of a larger displacement, but otherwise very similar engine. Is there any possibility of real innovation in the new engine, or would that be prohibitively expensive? Are we nearly certain it will be push-rod? My guess is larger bore, slightly longer stroke. Larger, more rounded fairing (maybe similar to race bike?), some different shaping of body-work different colors (frame and wheel colors?) list $13,000, and available in November. Elvis | ||
| Court |
Tough deal . . . it'll have to be the "best guesses of informed people based on logical extrapolation" lest the Carl Eberle Syndrome be invoked. Harley-Davidson has a very serious policy and for damned good reason. Anyone remember Jeremy Ricker ?  He has the record for "Best Guess of a Future Buell Model" to date....I saved the posting from 1996. Court | ||
| José_Quiñones |
The blast/Xb pushrod covers are composite. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Gary Valine's article is still as relevant today as it was when it was first published in Battle2win back in 1996 Read it here Here is the "executive summary"  | ||
| Davegess |
Rick A you said and Buell has patiently waited to release them...while people wait impatiently to see them I know for a fact that it was all Buell could do to get the XB done. While I am sure they were thinking of other models while developing I know htat they are not now patiently waiting for anything. If a new model is coming it is undegoing the normal Buell mad panic development scheudle from hell proceudre. HD may have bike sitting in the pipeline waitint the "right " time to be released. Not Buell. And no I don't know what is coming. I make a point, like Court, don't ask 'cause Idon't want to know. Dave | ||
| José_Quiñones |
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| X1glider |
Hooray for composites! That pushrod tube should give us an extra mph! I'm guessing the inreased cross-section of the shared pushrod tube helps the engine breathe better and prevents puking. Any XB9R owners that can attest to this? At least, judging by José's scans, they know where their efforts need to be concentrated. How about zero-lash herringbone toothed composite or powdered metal gears? Damn, I should work for them. (I really just want the discounts on bikes and parts) | ||
| S2no1 |
Dan, Roller rockers don't add horsepower. They are intended for better durability during higher RPM runs. Most people indicate they are noiser, probably because rollers have more moving parts. If you have a high lift, high rpm application with pushrod valves you can benefit from rockers. They don't add HP. I have some in my S2 cause I wanted the added durability at higher RPMS. Arvel | ||
| Blake |
X1G, Take a look at the reinforced structure of the aluminum primary cover and cam cover. All that reinforcement and beef is there for a reason. Do you think plastic (ABS, Nylon, and Zytel are not "composite" materials) or "corn flax resin" would come anywhere close to being able to equal the strength and/or stiffness of the stock aluminum covers? I very much doubt it. Simple plastic just doesn't have the strength or stiffness required to maintain the integrity of an oil tight seal while withstanding a harsh operating environment. You would need an advanced composite like CF/EP. The answer is then... composite covers would be WAY more costly, prohibitively costly in fact, compared to the machined aluminum castings. Ray, heeheheh!!!  | ||
| Shot_Gun |
Plastic doesn't make a very good heat sink either! | ||
| X1glider |
Didn't mean to say they should make parts out of ABS or corn flax resin. Just rattled off some names. Regular plastics, no, won't do the duty, but definitely an advanced composite. Take a look at the boat industry. They hand lay up and cure one boat at a time and are saving gobbs of money and are surpassing strength/weight requirements. In production quantities of 20,000, price should be pretty low and the only machining necessary will be tapping. And yes, there are composites out there that make a better heat sink than aluminum. Downside, the stuff doesn't chrome well.  As far as our primary covers go, the reinforcement you see isn't what you think it is. It is mostly paths for allowing the material to flow evenly and any bosses you see are most likely risers for when the material cools. All stress is focused on the gasket seating area. Ditto for the cam cover. They are just covers, not structural members. BTW, Blake, are going to TWS on June 15? I'll most likely do flag duty. The Buell doesn't have the top end to compete there. They'll lap me for sure. Oh, when is the date Buell releases the new lineup? July 17? As much as I'm kicking myself for buying the X1 and not waiting 2 weeks for the XB9R to hit the showroom floor, my imagination is running wild at the thought of a physically larger XB with more power. Anyone wanna buy my X1? | ||
| X1glider |
Hmmm, speculation? I don't see Buell creating another engine, so no longer stroke or larger bore. They've invested too much time and money in the XB engine. They need to get their money back out of the patterns for the castings and all production tooling. I do see them using a different cam grind and maybe shaping the combustion chamber differently for a new purpose. Then definitely a new map for the FI and ignition. I see the change being a simple one that costs them little. The rest of the bike? It could be the successor to the S3/S3T. It would make sense creating the bike they can get 2 models out of first. | ||
| Blake |
"Take a look at the boat industry. They hand lay up and cure one boat at a time and are saving gobbs of money and are surpassing strength/weight requirements." Most boat hulls are still built by hand with gel coat, wooden inlays, and chopped fiber, VERY crude. A few of the higher end builders are using glass and or carbon mat. Still VERY crude, not "advanced composites" and in a totally different class compared to what an engine component would require. As to saving money, I'm not sure. A good mass produced aluminum or steel boat hull is likely about the same or even less costly than an equivalent fiberglass hull. The metal hulls can be lighter too. The fiberglass has other desirable attributes like aesthetic appeal, fastener free finish (less drag), and noise attenuation. "In production quantities of 20,000, price should be pretty low and the only machining necessary will be tapping." Unfortunately the scenario is SO much more complicated. Consider just the following few problems... 1. The primary cover must accept screws to hold the clutch cover, chain inspection cover, clutch cable, and chain tensioner. How do you plan on accommodating the threaded fasteners and the local stresses they place on the covers. How will you ensure a clean/smooth/flat mating/sealing surface for the o-rings and/or rubber gaskets required? 2. The covers must withstand worst case high temperatures probably in excess of 300oF. What dimensional stability problems might one encounter in trying to cure an epoxy resin CF composite in order to achieve the required high temperature resistance? 3. What effect might unmatched thermal expansion coefficients (CF/EP versus aluminum) have on the integrity of the covers' oil tightness at their mating surfaces with the engine cases? 4. The cam cover contains comples oil passages and houses cam bushings. How would you design a cost effective CF/EP cover that would accommodate them? 5. Are composites prone to porosity and leaking? 6. What effect would hot oil have on the long term integrity of composite covers? 7. Would the current number of mounting fasteners be adequate, or would additional fasteners need to be added to ensure seal integrity is maintained. "In production quantities of 20,000, price should be pretty low and the only machining necessary will be tapping." How do you get nice clean strong holes for the various inspection/clutch/timing covers? How would you get a nice flat/smooth faying surface with adequate strength without machining it? How do you get a decent aesthetically pleasing surface finish? I suspect that the covers as well as the cases themselves would need to be totally redesigned to accommodate CF/EP covers. "And yes, there are composites out there that make a better heat sink than aluminum." Really? That is very surprising. I thought that nothing short of copper, silver, platinum, or gold makes a better heat sink than aluminum. "All stress is focused on the gasket seating area. Ditto for the cam cover. They are just covers, not structural members." While probably not required to augment the strength or stiffness of the engine cases themselves, aren't the covers subject to significant local stresses? Are the forces/loads due to vibration significant? Are thermal stresses significant? How much stress does each fastener head impart to a cover at its seat? Are you forgetting the cam cover's role in supporting the cams? Are you forgetting the primary cover's role in supporting the chain tensioner. What about the clutch cable? The cam cover I think is almost impossible in composite. The primary cover might be doable, but it would be VERY VERY VERY expensive. As a sanity check, take look around and see if you can find any advanced composite part that approaches the complexity and mission requirements of even the primary cover. I'm betting that you won't find one. If you do, try to find its cost. Blake (the B2 didn't cost $1B ea because composites are cheap.) | ||
| S2no1 |
Blake, Some of the more exotic ceramic composites are good heat sinks, that may be what he is refering too instead of the traditional resin/fiber composites. Arvel Only 1Billion, geesh you can't even buy lunce now at that that price | ||
| X1glider |
Ooops, I stand erected on some points. I sometimes forget that the TC88 is different in design, ie: a cam "carrier" and the primary is slightly different too. I suppose what I should be getting at is NOT substituting composites for the designs as we currently have them, but create new designs that take advantage of composites' advantages. Most people understand metal but not plastic. Scary territory. That EVO engine is old news, time for a change. Boats, not canoes! All those freebee composite mags I get are definitely geared toward the better pricier boats, aerospace, auto and oilfield. I've seen a mostly plastic 500 HP Vette engine even. Anyone seen the M16 successor? 90% plastic, complete with laser sights, 40mm programmable rocket launcher and weighs in at 12 lbs! Tooling no matter how advanced the tech, is an investment, and many aren't willing to take the plunge. Kudos to those who have and are therefore reaping the rewards. I'll address the other point in sequence: 1. Threaded inserts are used in the molding process and a finsh of 8 RMS is not uncommon. 2&3. Temps are typically good to 800 deg F and the materials can exhibit better dimensional stability and lower thermal expansion than metals. Gasket creeping wouldn't be a problem. 4. Oversight on my part. Change the design to a cam "carrier" and have a separate cover. 5. Some yes, some no. 6. Plenty of materials out there that resist chemical and heat effects. Composite oil pans and gas tanks are out there. 7. Hard to say. Once again, it is important to design a part with the intended material in mind. Unfortunately Willie G believes in form over function and traditional designs will always prevail. The V-Rod is his first step outside the box, but I believe it was because he is realizing there's not much of a choice anymore if he wants to stay in business. I have every reason to think that traditional designs have stifled our engines potential. A friend of mine a NASA designs heat pipes out of composites. 4 times the conductivity, 3 times the strength and a little lighter than an equal design in aluminum. Uh, cost? Don't ask. Stress on metals is generally more localized while composites spread it out. So fastener head stress is nominally less and vibration gets dampened better. The XL is designed differently in many respects so I digress on some points. | ||
| Blake |
Sounds like a metal matrix composite. Still, I cannot see anything having 4 "times the conductivity" of aluminum. Just not possible. The cost/weight benefit just isn't there for a commercial motorcycle. You started out talking about ABS and corn flax resin and now you are talking about unobtanium metal matrix composites. You might want to check the properties of a typical CF/EP at 800oF. The term "peanut butter" comes to mind. Is that Vette engine you mentioned going into mass production? | ||
| Anonymous |
Blake, let's see: Thermal Conductivity, W/cm-K Aluminum 2.165 Copper 3.937 Gold 2.913 Silver 4.173 Stainless Steel-321 .146 Stainless Steel-410 .240 Diamond (room temperature) 6.299 Diamond (77 K) 24. Diamond (room temperature, isotopically pure) 50. There are some carbon-fibers which have very high conductivity; from a NASA report: "The lengthwise thermal conductivities of graphitized carbon fibers range from about 300 to about 1,000 Wm-1K-1 -- about 20 to 67 times the thermal conductivity of stainless steel." Or 3 to 10 W/cm-K. There has been some recent work with fibers optimized for conductivity that might move the top of that range higher. Carbon nanotubes (Fullerenes) have yet higher conductivity, perhaps higher than that of any other material, and in the general range of diamond. So it's certainly conceivable you could engineer a material that's four-times as conductive as aluminum if cost were no object. It might well be metal matrix with a very high fiber loading. Typically, conductivity for high-density carbon-carbon composites is close to that of aluminum. | ||
| Buellzebub |
excellent dissertation Blake n friends. jumping outside the box now wouldn't it be easier to have active noise attenuation? read somewhere that the technology is mature enough to put into production vehicles. active attenuation = brodcasting the inverse waveform of the noise[waves cancel out, everything appears to be quiet] mmmmm KTM duke 2  | ||
| Blake |
Anon, I stand enlightened. So there are indeed some VERY exotic materials with better than aluminum thermal conductivity. Until today, I did not know that! Diamond? Who knew? Thanks for setting me straight. X1G too. Sorry to have doubted you. What's their thermal conductivity at elevated (400K) temperatures though? Would 77K be the temperature of liquid nitrogen? | ||
| Blake |
I like the way BZB is thinking. | ||
| Anonymous |
He's not the first to think that way either.  | ||
| S2no1 |
Blake; I was alos curious, I recalled that some of the exotics had very high TC (recall the picture of the scientist holding a cube that is glowing in the center, but can be touched on the outside) A quick search turned this up: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT7/Papers/Che/ It seems that nanotubes without defect will stabilize around 30 w/cm-k. (Cool stuff that) This also looks interesting for eletric applications. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1993/split/pnu131-2.htm And the next heatsinks for computers: http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:YHuTlllk8g4C:www.ms.ornl.gov/programs/energyeff/hswrm/images/pdf/foams.pdf+Thermal+Conductivity+Diamond+Carbon&hl=en&ie=UTF8 http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/graphite_foam.pdf I think I need to go back to school for another round of materials. Arvel |
