| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_A |
"I still say overall that article made the Buell look mighty tempting to the type of riders Eric designed it for and its a good step forward for getting the word out on the new Buell+ the even better ones to come." That I can agree with. Most of those articles are worthless to me as well. Buell has always build great handling, street oriented bikes, but they've always been rather discounted, misrepresented, or just not taken seriously by the general moto press. I suppose I am a hypocrite, though...as I've had eyes only for Buell after gettin' one myself. Buell racing...Pro Thunder should be televised! I liked watching the H-D 883's lap roadrace tracks more than anything else when ESPN used to cover those races. The Lightning Series would be outstanding, too. José, I agree that we do need a class here like the Canadian Thunder Series. With horsepower limitations and restrictions on chassis modifications I think it makes for more interesting racing...less about $$ and more aboot racing....but I still think Pro Thunder should continue as is. I gotta love the squids...'cause they'll likely be the source for my next and final used Buell purchase...yes...two Buells is all I'll need I think it'll just be a matter of time before people will be building 90hp+ streetgoing XB's that'll terrorize the streets... or just really loud 75 hp bikes...which is cool, too | ||
| Blake |
José, There you go again about the Buell's displacement advantage.  How about the four valve head, desmo valvetrain, short stroke/high revving, water cooled advantages of the Ducs? HP is HP, and apparently the two bikes are VERY close in their power output. That makes for an equitable race. And that's the bottom line in establishing any class racing rules, isn't it? | ||
| Blake |
Bobby, Yes. A dynojet dyno won't report torque without having monitored rpm. Aaron, Why can't you the normal inductive pickup on a Firebolt's plug wire to provide RPM data to the dyno PC? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake, My point about the displacement advantage is that it has no relation to the bike you and I can buy! Neither does the race fairing, the chain conversion, the frame sliders and the dual front brakes. These are FACTORY pieces that only the two FACTORY BACKED TEAMS (Tilley and Hal's, and later probably KOSCO at Loudon) have access to. The AMA has had to let Buell increase its displacement and add all these things that you and I can't buy so they can stay competitive! Wouldn't it be simpler to not allow watercooled Ducatis in the class, and only race stock displacement air cooled bikes? Let the 750 watercooled Ducatis race the 600's like they do in Europe. The closer the race bike is related to the street version, and keeping the displacement STOCK is key to this, the more people will identify/root for it. The way the rules keep getting changed to favor Buell (who could have spent the money to "sponsor" the class on something more productive) gives the impression that Buells are not competitive unless they get unfair advantages. | ||
| Aaron |
Bobby: Blake is right, if they got torque they must've got rpm. They can generate you a chart. Or, get your hands on the DYNORUN.xxx file and send it to me, I'll do it. Blake: you've obviously never tried to get to a plug wire on a Firebolt! jrh: don't embarass me  , I can manage that all by myself! | ||
| José_Quiñones |
So are the Ducatis, why can't you admit that. They are both FACTORY efforts. The Buell engines are built at Buell, not at the Dealers. Buell employess stand side by side the dealer race team employees. If that's not a "factory" effort I don't know what is! Just like the Ducati efforts. They both have FACTORY INVOLVEMENT, don't kid yourself. You know why McCarthy's bike was so fast at Daytona? Cause Jeff Nash, the Owner/Builder/tuner of the AMS bike, "found something new" in his words. In other words it was his own research and development, not something he bought from Italy. The funny thing about this tidbit is that it's on Munroe Motors webpage (Tom Montano's Ducati Dealer Sponsor) instead of Advanced Motor Sports's webpage. Read about it here | ||
| Blake |
José, Re: HD saving Buell and the cost of the recalls... Do you really know what you are talking about? I don't. But I can sure imagine a lot of ways that Buell could have handled the recalls without HD's involvement. You seem to think that HD was the only corporation that would have been interested in aquiring Buell. Five million dollars sounds like a lot, but with low interest rates and a record of increasing market share, do you think that Buell might have been able to secure a loan if needed to tide them over? Let's see, $5M divided by around 5,000 bikes/year divided by two years yields $500 per bike profit needed to cover the entire recall effort over a two year period. That doesn't sound quite so insurmountable of an obstacle when you really look at the numbers, does it? Do you think Buell's recall program expenses needed to be covered by only two year's profits? | ||
| Superbad |
Remember that the AMA(and all race organizers) wants close racing so they try to pair different engine types that should make similar performance and also use weight as an additional equalizer. Where have all the Triumphs gone?? They were fast but the factory didn't support the racing in the long term, so only truely dedicated enthusiasts race the Triumphs...(are there any left in Pro-thunder?) Pro-Thunder is the red-haired step child of AMA pro Racing. I wish it weren't true but.... Last Years championship was very tight, but you wouldn't know it because it gets Nothing for coverage!! There are only 6 Pro-thunder races this year and alot more Superbike races.. with 5 whole factory bikes left  It is sooo BORING! Honda has Outspent everyone by 10times and the rest of the field are Suzuki 750 Supersport bikes YAWN!!! I would rather watch the 250's and Pro-thunder than the 600's but thats just me! Also remember the rules were meant to make the previous Buell models(1200 cc) competitive and before the Firebolt was available. Next season they may change the rules again.. We shall have to wait and see. Bobby | ||
| Xgecko |
Aaron, I take it it's about the same as it is on the Blast??? To all about the Ducati 748RS...it is about the same step above the 748R an the 998F02 is above the 998RS. In short it's a lot better than the "Stock" racing 748R. and probably 50-60K more in cost. I can't think that a "factory" FB can cost more than 30K For some strange reason, probably perversity, the AMA likes the Clone class opps I mean 600 (only) SuperSport the way it is. Too bad, the WSBK/WSSB folks seem to have a much better set of rules. And in the WSSB a broader range on brands. All you see in the AMA "show" classes is factory and Suzuki. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Jose, The "dealer" bike from AMS that Nash won the championship on last year was for sale on Roadracing World by the Ducati factory at the end of the season...gee isn't that odd? Oh, but this year Jeff found the "magic power" on his own? Oh, but you read about it on Monroe Motors page, who of course have "no" factory involvement... Xgecko is absolutely right about the cost of the Ducati...and of course, Nash just happened by chance out of his dealership to pick up a world Superbike rider from Australia... | ||
| Anonymous |
BWB poster's hall of Fame!!!
| ||
| Blake |
"My point about the displacement advantage is that it has no relation to the bike you and I can buy!" Sure it does. It's racing version of the same bike that we can buy. It's a heck of a lot closer to its commercially available sister than any NASCAR racing machines are to their automotive namesakes. Are superbikes any closer to their commercial counterparts? Get off the obsession with displacement and you'll see just as many non-stock go-fast mods on the superbikes. Displacement is just one aspect affectig engine performance. How about GP bikes? Any stock parts there? Any interest? The ONLY major moto racing classes where the race bikes closely represent bikes that you or I could buy and race prep are the supersport classes. Even there, you won't have much of a chance competing with the factory boys. Besides, the factories' investments in the Pro Thunder bikes certainly has a trickle down benefit effect for us. What Buell learns on the track pushing the limits of the platform will certainly benefit future development. I'd applaude an air cooled only stock class too. Let's start one! Wanna come to Oak Hill Raceway and kick it off next year? Wait! My M2 wouldn't qualify. It has the Nallin Racing 1250 kit.   Seriously though, the problem with trying to race a stock air cooled series contested between bikes with vastly different engine configurations would be that one model of bike would without a doubt end up being dominant. The series would therefore not be viable. To make it a viable and an interestingly close competition, rules would need to be enacted to level the field. Hmmm, sounds familiar doesn't it? Weight and displacement are usually the first two parameters considered in adjusting the rules to level the racing field. I think we need to realize that only when contested engine configurations are virtually identical, like in 600SS, can a racing series remain viable without special field leveling rules to compensate for the advantages that one configuration will inevitably gain over others. I just don't see the Buell Pro-Thunder displacement allowance any different than the performance enhancements that Duc 988, RC51, and GSXR750 superbikes are allowed. Displacement is just one aspect of getting more power out of an engine. For Buell in Pro-Thunder, it happened to be the simplest field leveling parameter to adjust compared to the stock engines. Dang! It took me the whole ball game to finish this. Dangit, the Kings lost. | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, No plug wire access; that sucks. I do recall now that you mention the tight quarters of the XB9R's engine, that you have to drop the engine to change the plugs. That REALLY bites. I htink there may be a trick or two and some special tools that will allow plug removal without dropping the engine. But dropping the engine is supposed to be a simple quick routine operation. Just sounds kinda scary for those of us who aren't so used to such things. | ||
| Two_Buells |
Jose, thanks for the heads up on on the demos. I will be there on Sat | ||
| Xgecko |
If I remember right the going price for a 748R is around 30K Stock (who races box stock???) the 748RS is more than double that. Out of the box the RS has 20 more ponies than the R and is 20KG lighter and that's just the starting point. Granted the Firebolt is not much like what we can buy to ride but it's a lot closer to what we can buy/build on our own than the Ducati is. Don't get me wrong I like the Ducati a bunch actually it's an awesome middleweight twin but Kirk's bike is not your average Ducati by any stretch of the imagination it is the bike the "Factory" makes for teams to Race on the "World Stage" not like the rest of the Guys on Ducaties (I wonder what the plural of Ducati really is) in the AMA. | ||
| Court |
>>>>.......You seem to think that HD was the only corporation that would have been interested in aquiring Buell. That is inaccurate. | ||
| Smitty |
Greetings everyone. I’m curious how the lucky Firebolt owners made out with insurance. My 86 Yamaha Fazer cost more to insure than my friends 2002 Ducati S4.He has got Ducati insurance I guess the factory must be underwriting. His original quote was over $1400.00 He ended up with about $400.00. Is the XB in the arm and a leg group? Thanks for your input.  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
The Canadian Thunder series seems to be doing ok. It's all air cooled twins and SV650's. Blake, Imonabuss I never said that the Ducati bikes were not FACTORY bikes, they are. Re-read what I wrote, I never made that claim. What I'm saying is that if you use the same criteria, the Tilley and Hals bikes are also Buell "Factory" bikes. In fact the Buells have MORE factory involvement in a sense because of all the BUELL employees that are in the pits with these two teams. Cost is not the issue, Ducatis are definetly expensive and AMS is certainly sparing no expense, it's the amount of Factory Involvement. AMS, Munroe, Tilley and Hals are all "Factory Bikes". So if the amount of money spent is proportional to the desire to win the championship, y'all must admit that AMS Ducati wants it more than BUELL, and they're the title sponsor of the class! I guess it doesn't really matter to Buell if they win the races/championship as long as the announcer says: "And the winner of the BUELL Pro Thunder race at........" As long as you both admit that the Buells are FACTORY bikes, you'll get no argument from me about the Ducatis. | ||
| Raymaines |
I just finished reading the July ’02 Cycle World article “World’s Best Streetbike.” In the next to last paragraph of the story, page 54, it says "The sporting street rider has never had a better array of bikes from which to choose. And it’s only going to get better. I happen to know that Buell is very interested in “Streetfighter” as a model name. An XB9R with lower footpegs, higher handlebars and a better seat? Could be tasty." And it goes on to mention the Ducati Multistrada and and the Yamaha Europe only TDM900. Yeah! A 9er with M2 ergos. Cool! Please, BMC, give me a "Streetfighter." BTW, I thought it was a great article and it reinforces my belief that there are very few genuinely bad bikes left to pick from. The real trick is to properly pick the bike that suits your needs, personality and credit rating. It could be the Buell that does it for you but your neighbor could very well buy any one of the other nine bikes in the story or a 10 year old V-Max and live happily ever after. Our cycle world is a wonderful world. | ||
| Superbad |
Well I got some answers on the Dyno run. I had them print me some other copies of it. The first one they gave me was from 4700-5700 RPM! The other copy gave me a good answer as to why the HP is so low..... They shut the throttle @ 6600 RPM!! They didn't want to "abuse" such a new motor!! I explained I had already run it way harder and that it held up just fine. I am a different type of customer than they are used to dealing with, but hopefully I am the first of many. I met the second Firebolt owner in town. Had had taken delivery last week of a white one. It is his first bike! I hope he is careful, it may not have 100+ HP but it can still kill you. One thing I have noticed about the bike, you MUST run high beams during the day! The small size coupled with the cutoff of the projector headlight makes the bike very invisible. Well Be safe everyone.. Bobby | ||
| Imonabuss |
I just saw the qualifying for Pikes, and the factory Ducati got the pole back (maybe the reason Ducati spends more is because they have a whole lot more, Jose...?). The next four places are the Tilley and Hal's Buells. Not bad. What I saw that was really neat was another XB9R qualified in about 12th, I think, clustered in with privateer 748RS's. Heck, this guy must have just got his bike...and it didn't cost 60K like the RS!! I wonder if he still has the belt drive and stock gearing?!! Ya gotta like that, Jose! Pikes Peak is a handling course, not a top speed course, for sure, so I'm sure a bike like this wouldn't do as well at Daytona. It does emphasize that the Firebolt handles incredibly well, though. Hey, I just had another thought. Jose, would you and others pay $60K for a Hal's replica? Maybe we can give Buell (or Hal's!)a business here like Ducati... | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Ducati S.P.a does *NOT* directly support any racing efforts in the US. All "factory" ducati teams buy their equipment from Ducati Racing in Italy. The US teams are *NOT* allowed to buy the most current generation of equipment...that is solely for Ducati's WSB use. The AMA Ducati's are running bikes that are equavilent to 2 yr. old WSB bikes (and in some cases - i.e., some of the #2 bikes - *are* 2-3 yr. old WSB bikes). Those Pro Thunder 748's are even less skunkwork than the superbikes...as far as unobtanium Ducati racing parts. Now, HMC does have quite a bit of their own R&D work (both in superbike and for 748's). Glad to see Buell finally being competative. Wish AMA had the wisdom to restructure supersport instead of keeping this dying class on life support for another year. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Raymaines |
The lead editorial on page 11 of the July issue of Motorcyclist, by Mitch Boehm, has some words to say about the XB9R and future offerings from KTM. Your comments would be welcome. The image I was trying to upload was WAY too big. Give me a few minutes to work it out. | ||
| Raymaines |
OK, here we go: July Motorcyclist, page 11, Lean Angle by Mitch Boehm, Editor in Chief.     | ||
| Raymaines |
Jeez, this is a good artical and all, but what a huge pain in the butt to up load. Enjoy.....RaY2K | ||
| Dynarider |
The pictures & article of that new KTM V-twin look very promising. Wonder if Buell would be interested in sourcing their engines from another supplier?? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like Harley may release a streetfighter built around the Vrod engine after all... that would seem the most obvious answer to the "mystery" R&D team above. It would be just like the inside look they did with the discovery channel for the (entertaining) informercial "the making of the Vrod". Could be wrong, but that'd be my guess as to his "mystery company". Whatever they build will probably haul ass in a straight line, and look very cool, but I'll take handling every time thanks (and I'll never afford a Harley). | ||
| Superbad |
Reepicheep... I don't think Harley would be testing a new bike @ Monza circuit in Italy. I would guess its one of the Old names coming back.. like Laverda, Mondial, Benelli, or MV Augusta. I guess I am going to have to throw a deposit down on the new Duke! Then I will figure how to do the Surgery.... Well maybe not, but I am wondering about how to get another XB9R for racing, once they release some kind of serious power-up kit, and a way to get chain drive on it. Bobby | ||
| Dave |
It makes sense (to me) that Erik share his frame wizardry and mass centralization with the HD side of the house. In the near future, I expect to see a water cooled HD that resembles a Buell and has great handling. Call is street-fighter, street-dominator, whatever else the marketing folks or press can think of conjuring. Think of it ... HD introduced the Vrod to the HD faithful to which they've warmed up to. Those same HD faithful understand the Blast as the entry level motorcycle, but they don't quite 'get' the other Buells. A slice of 'em will understand and want that water cooled HD that bears many of the design features found on the Firebolt. To me, this answers 'yes' to all of our wants and desires and 'no' at the the same time. HD will be on the bike tank (air housing assembly) but we'll want it ... maybe even demand it. DAve http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1832103941 | ||
| Blake |
But I won't be able to afford it. |
