| Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     José_Quiñones |
Kirk McCarthy's Ducati Quicker Than Buell Firebolts In First AMA Pro Thunder Practice At PPIR Not bad for somebody who has never raced there.......... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_A |
A few comments in response to other comments: First, these days I am a contributing editor to CW. Most of my life is spent doing engineering consulting and accident analysis. As a contributing editor, I don't have any final say in what gets published. In general, stories I submit get very minor editing, but in a piece like this, I submitted several pages of notes, some of which got used. CW Editor David Edwards established the criteria for the test. The quote that Jose referred to about the trail being chosen to pass the H-D high-speed handling test is a misquote. I was having a discussion with another rider about the Firebolt's handling, and mentioned that the trail setting was a compromise chosen not for Shawn Higbee for racetrack performance, but as the setting most test riders felt comfortable with in most riding, something that was explained to me both by Erik and by Vance Stader. I then jokingly commented that Buell also had to worry about Harley's high-speed handling test. Unfortunately, we were both wearing helmets at the time, the other guy didn't pick up my smile, and the quote ended up in his notes, which ended up in the article. I didn't see it until it went to press, which was very unfortunate. Suffice to say that Buell chose the trail they wanted for the reasons they wanted, not because Harley dictated something to them. Finally, the more I ride the Firebolt, the more I'm impressed with the handling. It's not like anything else, and you do need to get used to it. Once you are, it goes faster with less effort than any other bike. You could almost think of it as a SRX-6 with horsepower, but it's actually smaller than the Yamaha single, and handles better. The suspension is also extremely well set-up, with a very nice compromise between comfort, handling, and dealing with big bumps. I'm also looking forward to the many derivatives expected from the Firebolt platform. Given the fuel economy, Buell wouldn't have to add much to the fuel capacity to create a touring bike with reasonable range, and it's interesting that the footpeg carriers are bolt-on pieces, making it relatively simple to change the riding position. I expect that many models will spring from this chassis, but we shall see . . . | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Davegess |
Steve, interesting comment about the SRX. One of my favs BTW. I have a GB500 (which I have now mentioned for the 127th time and promise to never do it again) and the XB is very much like it in feel. Except it has actual HP and a way higher cornering limit.  I am sitting here listening to the Isle of Man TT and fantasizing about taking a Firebolt over the mountain or down the coast road from Douglas to Ramsey. The only thing that keeps me from really crying in my Guinness is that the temperature there is topping out at 60 degrees and it has been pissing down rain most days this week. I still envy my buds, one is watching one is actually trying to race. Dave | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Thanks again Steve. We are glad you have time to lend an objective and interesting view to the CW content. I'll always be a fan/subscriber of the magazine. I'll also continue to comment on any apparent bias that ticks me off. It's very good to get clarification that HD is NOT dictating steering geometry to the designers at Buell. It's disappointing that the CW editor sees fit to print something that contentious without verifying it. I think I'll go ahead and draft a letter to the editor in hopes that my opinion might instigate some well considered change at CW. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
The "Harley high speed handling test" thing is pretty funny, even funnier that it got into print. Gives me a good chuckle  Ah the roots of uban legends. Next time tell 'em they had to raise the pegs, as it did not pass the stringent "Harley Cornering Clearance Test"  Thanks Steve for being in the right at the right time to help people understand what the Firebolt is and what it does well. Sounds like you got a lot of good points into print in the article. The squids are going to look no further then the "peak horsepower" numbers and are going to dismiss the Firebolt regardless (as well as most other twins). The people reading further have more then enough to get excited about with the Firebolt, both in the CW article and elsewhere. My jaw literally dropped when I read how the Firebolt did on the handling course relative to the class of bikes represented, especially the F4i. The course was supposed to be a real world course with real world riding... and the only way the F4i could beat the bolts times were with super aggressive riding and 10,000+ rpms (which really tells me it got beat by the bolt). The fact that a firebolt, with a 1000cc pushrod aircooled twin, can tie an F4i that is lighter with more horsepower... that is REALLY saying something. The performance of an F4i with the character of a Buell... and I can get it without feeling like I am riding a damn dremel tool. The other interesting thing is that I think the F4i, with its hyper engineered and ultra tweaked everything, does not have much room left for improvement. Adding a power commander and a new pipe might give you a few extra horses, but I doubt if it is much. I suspect the firebolt has a LOT of room left to grow, and it will be interesting to see what people here can get out of it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
José, Though the point is now moot, it's important that you know that I do very much recognize the great benefits of the HD/Buell relationship. However, you should understand that I meant "HD meddlers" to mean HD executives with so much ego that they would see fit to tell Buell how to design their Sport Bike. I'm glad that statement turned out to be false and feel kind of silly for not recognizing it as such. Kudos and congrats to HD for winning the CW Best Cruiser of 2002. Further, I don't agreet with your contention that "Buell would not be around today without those HD meddlers." I think it's the height of arrogance to flippantly make such statements. Buell might be MUCH smaller and still be a small very limited production shop, but something tells me that Mr. Buell would certainly still be building American sportbikes for sale to the general public. There are WAY too many enthusiasts who treasure the Buell idea of an American sportbike. I'm one of them. "BTW, the MotoGuzzi V11 or Lemans (with a shaft drive) could also compete with the XB in that "category"." No, the description was "Air Cooled, Belt-Driven, Pushrod Twin Cylinder Sportbike." Regardless, even without the belt drive descriptor, it's a sarcastic remark that seems to me to be designed more as an insult than a compliment. Thanks for the Pro Thunder link. It looks like that McCarthy kid is head and shoulders above the other Duc riders. His superbike racing experience is really showing. Friday Morning Pro Thunder Practice Times:
All four Buells are within less than a second of McCarthy's best practice lap. The next quickest Duc is almost 2 seconds back! I'll be rooting for the Buell riders to pick up the pace on raceday and put Buells 1,2,3 on the podium. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sarodude |
Anyone know what rubber is being run on the race XB9Rs? Still stock rubber? -Saro | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Well, if Nallin Racing can get 50+ RWHP out of a Blast engine, I suppose a streetable XB9R should be able to get close to 100 RWHP. On a bike that light with such strong low end and midrange, that amount of power would be truly intimidating. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
Most of us, raised in the RR/RS days would say that. Frankly, after a few miles, it seems that the Buell RS shoulder dip becomes instinctive. . . My bet is that in the event Erik was freed of constaints, and neither he, David Robb or anyone else is at risk of getting a "these rules apply to the entire world except you" letter, my bet is the bike he would build to sell would emulate the XB much more than the Barton. The is a point where passion intersects with business case. Erik, even with passion at full tilt, realizes that SELLING motorcycles pays the tuition of the daughters, not MAKING the fastest "for display only" pieces. Enlighting discussion here filled with learned engineers, savvy riders and REAL Firebolt owners....oh yeah...and a renegade Texan. ride safe, lean much, smile more, Court | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
That's what I was thinking Blake. Imagine the bolt doing what it does now, but with an additional 10 to 20 horsepower, and no midrange hole. At 10,000 new, and $3000 extra to Mr. Nallin and company (or Pammy, or anyone else here with the gift), what kind of bike would you have for $13,000? Something no other exotic could touch? Something comparable to $30,000 worth of Ducatti? I don't know, but the thought intrigues me. Imagine something that walks away from an RC51 and an F4i in the corners.... AND the straights (at least up to 120mph or so). Out of my price range for sure, but not "unobtanium" by any means... Heck... its cheaper then many economy cars. I'm part of the group of people watching for these things to show up used 5 years from now... Hopefully production goes way up so used costs go down. Frankly, I would probably be doing the spousal lobbying for the 'bolt right now if my Cyclone were not such a fantastic bike for me. I can't bear the thought of parting with it, even for the 'bolt. I think. Maybe. And I would like a dual sport. Bah! I wanna win the lotto!  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Csg_Inc |
Just got my parts catalog for the XB9R and how about this....Ok so I am new to the Buell stuff but how cool is this?..The Primary chain is 40005-57B so I believe that goes back to the first Sportster way to go Buell boys! I just love it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spiderman |
Sorry just checked that number "front chain XL/BUELL 58.50" | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Superbad |
I just figured out what the Journalists problem is... This bike rides fast so easily they are afraid of losing their jobs as Hotshoes! As for the faster than a $30,000 Ducati, well I resemble that remark, ok $20,000+ (NEVER AGAIN!) If it says anything I left my 108Hp 853cc Ducati 748 in Florida and took the Firebolt to Deal's gap and other hot spots in the North Carloina mountains. Bobby | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buelliedan |
Bobby, That says volumes!!  | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Xgecko |
Kirk McCarthy is on a "factory" Ducati. He probably has better support than either HMC on ABB Ducati. Which is to say he is ridding a bike on par techwise with the WSB Ducati's. This isn't bad at all it shows that no matter what the AMA says about ProThunder Ducati still wants a presence in the USA. I find it interesting that the FB are faster than the regular 748R's...significantly faster too. Bobby, sizewise how does the FB relate to the 748? bigger smaller??? I know that Ducatis favor the small rider and Kirk McCarthy is reportedly quite small | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Elvis |
Can anyone help me with some history? I've never payed much attention to Pro-Thunder. How did the Buell/Ducati battle shake out last year? Thanks in advance. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Superbad |
Elvis, The series was won by a Ducati by 2 points... Basically came down to who got pole and who finished ahead of the other. I forget who the riders were I think it was Mike Ciccotto(Buell) and Tom Montano(Ducati). I wish they would televise the Pro-thunder races as its more exciting than the Superbike races.... ie. Nicky wins by a long shot... The 748 is alot bigger than the Firebolt. I will pull both out this weekend and snap a few pics side by side. I have done so much to the 748 its insane... I just want to get the Buell breathing better and rev'ing quicker wouldn't hurt either. The 748 has a more relaxed lower body position but a much more severe upper body position, with all your weight on your wrists. Carpal tunnel anyone? I put riser bars on my Duc to help, but I think the Buell sits perfect. Also Don't ride a Ducati if you can't handle the XB9R's clutch because you won't believe how much harder you have to squeeze the Duc's. This was very apparent going from XB9R to the S4 Monster(Buddies bike) and back. Bobby | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Imonabuss |
Wait 'til you see the Friday afternoon practice times...whoooeeee, here we go! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Davegess |
Imonabuss, I can't get excited about short circuite racing when the REAL race start tomorrow with the Formual 1 TT at the Isle of Man. Jeffries just did the first ever under 18 minute lap and left Colin Edwards shaking his head saying "You guys are all nuts". Dave | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Imonabuss |
Geez, I'm excited about Pikes Peak, because both Mike and Tripp are now faster than McCarty (I gave it away). It would be interesting to see a Buell at the Isle of Man, though...didn't one of the RW-750 engines win a sidecar race there many years ago? BTW, Mike's times would put him 10th in practice for Superbike... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Davegess |
Just pulling your leg I am a big TT fan, know a fellow racing it this year so am follwoing it very closely. Yes the Buell/Barton engined bike won, perhaps twice and was on th epodium a few other times. Not sure of the details as they had a race one and a race two some yeras. I will have to ask it the used combined times or gave trophies for each race. dave | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| José_Quiñones |
Friday Afternoon Pro Thunder Practice Times: 1. Mike Ciccotto, Buell, 0:57.648 2. Tripp Nobles, Buell, 0:57.972 3. Kirk McCarthy, Ducati, 0:58.076 4. Dave Estok, Buell, 0:58.307 5. Shawn Higbee, Buell, 0:58.580 6. John Dugan, Ducati, 0:59.803 7. Tom Montano, Ducati, 0:59.845 8. Heath Small, Ducati, 1:00.755 9. Carlos Macias, Ducati, 1:01.001 10. Kurt Marmor, Ducati, 1:01.813 Things are looking good so far. Mr. Ciccotto's, Nobles', Estok's and Higbee's bikes are just as FACTORY LEVEL Race bikes as the Ducatis, plus they get a big displacement advantage (1320 cc vs 750cc). Hopefully next year they will only allow STOCK displacement air cooled bikes in this class (900SS and Monster Ducatis, BMW's, MotoGuzzi's and Buells) along with SV560's, like the Canadian Thunder Series | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Superbad |
Well I just picked up my bike from the first service and got the Dyno chart I asked for  It's lower than I guessed... 70.8 HP and 58.3 ft/lbs I would post it but as far as I am concerned it is a useless chart. They graphed it based on MPH not RPM! Who cares what the speed was in 4th gear! I wonder why they did this? I didn't look closely @ the chart before I left, just the peak numbers and figured I would study it later. I will be going back tommorrow and try to get them to print me a chart I can use. The bike was only able to pull 96 MPH in 4th gear. They need to forget about 5 speeds and start making 6 speed trannys for Buells. Bobby | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"BTW, Mike's times would put him 10th in practice for Superbike..." Even better, Mike's time of 57.648 would put him 4th in Superstock! I wonder why Hal's and Tilley's are not contesting the XB9R's in Superstock as well as Pro Thunder? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake, Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific: Buell would not have survived the RECALL (Plant shut down, Dealers could not sell bikes and sold bikes could not leave the dealers, etc) without HD's deep pockets (to the tune of about 5 million dollars) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aaron |
Bobby: they probably didn't know the secret place for the tach pickup on the Firebolt. There's a loop of wire protruding out the harness, up inside the fairing a little bit, easily accessible from the left side, it's the coil primary. I only knew it was there because a factory trained tech told me. Without that piece of info, I was looking at removing bodywork to get to something I could hang the tach pickup wire onto. They probably didn't want know about the loop and didn't want to mess with removing bodywork, hence you only got hp versus speed, you can't get torque or rpm. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jima4media |
All it takes to win the Isle of Mann TT is a wheelbarrow. Why? To haul your balls around. Anybody that would drive 150mph on city streets with age-old rock construction foundations on the buildings, and rock walls around the yards, has to have basketballs. Air Fence? Never heard of it. Yep, PPIR Pro Thunder racing is going to be intense, this weekend too. Jim X-2.5 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jrh |
Man, Aaron if you decide to quit coming to this site we're gonna get you back,even if we drag ya! Thanks for your posts. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Imonabuss |
Jose, No way are the Buells remotely as factory as Kirk McCarty's bike. Do you have any idea what a factory Ducati is worth? To give you an idea, the Ducati factory race budget is over $25 million per year, out of which they field about a dozen bikes. These Buell's are from dealers, and a few dealers can get special parts from Buell once they meet a certain resume level (ie. win Lightning class). Why aren't there more of these parts available to more dealers to buy? Because friends inside tell me Buell doesn't have the budget to seed the program yet (in short to even buy the parts to sell to the dealers!). 99.9% of their money is going into the bikes you and I can buy for the street, and I am glad, because I love my Firebolt!!!. But I'll bet Erik is praying for the day when they can fund the program to sell more race kits or bikes...and since I have my Firebolt now, I'm all for more racing too! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Superbad |
I did get a torque curve so can I get an RPM chart? Bobby |
