| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Ben... Have you ever ridden an XB that had something other than D207's on it? | ||
| Riderx09 |
Everytime this Inline vs. buells stuff comes up i get real p-oed... you know if your buell doesnt go fast enough and you dont wanta put money in it to go faster then go buy another F-ing bike and stop crying about "when are we are getttin a new engine i need more power"..its like buying a mazda miata and bitchin cause you cant keep up with a Ferrari...if you wanted 160mphs so bad why didnt you buy a bike that could do it..buell could come out with a 125 horsepower bike and people would still have something to say about it...i doubt 3/4 of the people on here could handle a buell with that kind of power unless they were tooling down the highway...i mean you bought a bike with a worked over sportster engine what were you expecting...i love my bike and got pretty much what i wanted if a 600 kicks my a$$ oh well im having fun- i like this site alot but come on, when is it going to end with this stuff.. if Erik wanted it dont you think he could build it?? | ||
| Thepup |
RiderX,he would have to run it by the HD bigwigs.M1,you really don't believe that any of the big 4 litre bikes don't make power at 15mph,stop kidding yourself there.I can see this is going to turn into one of those threads.The Japanese bikes seem to win just about every race they are in,against Buell and Ducati. | ||
| Benm2 |
M1, not only do I like my Buell, I love it. To me, the M2 & S1 are the finest examples of Buell, built around the basic structure Erik developed in a garage. The XB doesn't do it for me, although I'd LOVE to have an XB-motored tuber. I've been passed by them like I was in reverse, but of course that has more to do with my timid corner speed than anything else. I've also passed an XB12 on the straight, with MY motor  Buell itself has done WONDERS with the sportster engine they started with, from the lightning heads through the XB's. The XB bottom end & transmission are again the sorts of improvements the mothership should have made years before. They are pushing the HP limits there as well, having taken the 60hp original to "90's". They have progressed too. But I (and you) have seen more. Even the current XB heads are nods to the mothership. They have been designed for the side feed carb, while the XB frame & airbox were designed for downdraft. Even without ever having seen them, I'm CERTAIN that true downdraft heads are out there in the factory, with the intake seats offset for larger valves. They didn't develop them for fun (or maybe they did?). The developed them to make their racebike faster, so they could keep up with Duhamel's 140hp 600RR. Erik may be working from a different box. For sure, he is. But, as YOU pointed out, their motor is 50 lbs heavier. Imagine, if you will, an XB with those 50lbs gone... AND those magic downdraft heads. If that doesn't seem like progress to you, check yer pulse. | ||
| Dago |
"I suspect that a lot of the people who don't REALLY like their Buells just don't have any good twisties anywhere near them. I have one other idea, but I'll just keep that one to myself..." I presume that "REALLY" remark was directed at me and will therefore counter by telling you that your presumption is completely false. I do have twisties. They're on a race track, which I'm on as often as possible. My XB excels on one specific track close to me due to the fact the only straight sees about 130 mph tops. So what was your thought? Even you admitted earlier that you too would like to see 135 more quickly (which would require...err...what is it?...MORE POWER). I guess that means you don't "REALLY" like your Buell either. So what's your beef? | ||
| Aesquire |
These are cult bikes. So are Ducati's. Compromises have to be made to get anything built. Buell's Tube frame bikes made nearly twice the HP of their Sportster kin. The motor's as old as I am. 1957 was a good year. Want more power? Nitrous. | ||
| Court |
>>>>call Nallins and drop even more $ with questionable return Ooooops.....inaccurate statement. "Questionable"? My bike is on the way to Aaron and one of the major reasons is that I must eliminate ALL risk, when I am sending my bike 3,000 miles, of having it be anything less than perfect. Send your bike to Nallin Racing and you're gonna have your smile lit one. One thing that is a "given" is that few do fast AND reliable like Aaron. The reason I am sending my bike and a blank check is that I know I'll get VALUE. Court | ||
| Road_thing |
Hey, Court, as long as you're sending blank checks, how 'bout sending one down this way? rt | ||
| Dago |
Thanks for the note, Court. I don't doubt I'll get value. I question how much value I'll get compared to what I want as well as the money I spend. That's no shot at Nallins, Hobin, or any other aftermarket mfg dedicated to Buell performance. It's only wise to think of these things in advance. This is why I said "questionable return." For me, the amount of return I get for my money is questionable. I'd love to hear what they're doing for you, how much you spent, and the performance gains you obtained? Please PM me, if you'd like. | ||
| Court |
Motorcycles are funny business when you impute "value". I've had two Buells with over $25,000 invested in them. I am very well aware that, in both instances, I could have bought, at half the price, "faster" motorcycles. I paid me money...I got what *I* wanted. Along the same lines, I am watching these folks across the street walk into the clubhouse with their clubs. They'll each be plopping down about the price of a HS42 today and get back in the car with not one more thing than they arrived with. Motorcycles are "discretionary recreational vehicles" in the USA. Any attempt to "impute value" will lead to circular logic errors as various folks arrive at the camp fire with differing value metrics. I'm about...later today...to place an order for a motorcycle that I don't even know what it is yet. Where's the "value" in that, Ulysses? Court | ||
| Dago |
I seek quantifyable results based on *my* formula. According to my calculations, I'm precisely one frog hair away from *my* perfect bike. Is it wrong to seek *my* definition of perfect value? I'm done with this thread though. My only points are that I love my XB more than I believe I'd love any other current motorcycle, but I wish it had more power the 10% of the time I want it. Time to hit the lake with my lady!  | ||
| Mike_bolts |
"I'm about...later today...to place an order for a motorcycle that I don't even know what it is yet" I thought you had connections? I'm curious too, but sight unseen? | ||
| Rocketman |
For your interest Combat, there are instances this season and last where some of the BSB teams have detuned their motors to produce less power than showroom stock ones in order to cope with certain tracks that even stock bikes produce too much power for it to be controllable. As they say ' power is nothing without control'. What you imply wrt power budget chassis relationship is a total croc dude. Sometimes I wonder where you think this stuff up. I've been in and around the motorcycle business for nearly 28 years and in all that time I've seen the mass production manufacturers raise the standards of their products beyond my wildest dreams of even 15 years ago. That's about the same time scale we've left GPZ900's behind and gone from 16.5 inch wheeled Fireblades to MV 1000 F4 Tamburini's with variable length throttle bodies. Do you actually know what I mean by this statement? Incidentally, there are plenty of roads in and around a few miles radius of where I live that 150 give or take is readily do-able on a capable bike and that's not including motorways. The British Isles are full of roads like this. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise just because they're happy to ride a Buell that won't crack much more than 135mph after a serious run up. Buell's are underpowered and some of us Buell fans have moaned such for years. As far as I see it Buell's next step is to produce a modern engine capable of keeping up with its own chassis. Until they do I don't ever see me interested in buying another Buell unless it's offered as a used bargain. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"The British Isles are full of roads like this." I'm sure... That's the case around here too... I also have a stretch about 15 miles long with HUNDREDS of turns. I like it there better. I do about two laps a weekend (most weekends anyway) of a stretch of road about 60 miles long. 3/4 is fast open sweepers (with bumps) and the other 15 miles includes some VERY tight mountain roads. I like both sections but any more than about 100 will get me jailed. If I stick to something under 100 the police tend to look the other way (unless I run that through any of the four 25mph towns). This is what the Buell is made for. "What you imply wrt power budget chassis relationship is a total croc dude." No it isn't... It's simple (or maybe not so much  ) economics. The big four choose parts based off how much price/power/handling they can get compared to their competition (and then you have bikes like the 999R but that's really a special case... a $30K special case). The Buell is a special case too... It just happens to be a special case aimed SQUARELY at being an excellent street bike instead of an excellent "production race bike". "For your interest Combat, there are instances this season and last where some of the BSB teams have detuned their motors to produce less power than showroom stock ones in order to cope with certain tracks that even stock bikes produce too much power for it to be controllable." What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about production street bikes here... "' power is nothing without control'" Yeah... That's what I said... "As far as I see it Buell's next step is to produce a modern engine capable of keeping up with its own chassis." That's what I effing said brother... "Are you aware of the fact that the current Buell engine is 50 pounds heavier than an R1 engine? Are you also aware of the fact that the bikes are pretty close to the same weight? What does that mean? That means that Buell is FAR beyond the Japanese/Italian "edge" in chassis engineering. Mark my words... The Japanes and Italians are SCARED of the day Buell designs a proper race engine that's the same or similar weight to the R1 engine and fits the XB frame. It won't even NEED to make as much power : ). " | ||
| Rocketman |
Combat, only the first paragraph of my above post was directed at you. BSB racing IS production bikes! There are few things one can do to enhance the power. Much attention is paid to blueprinting though some tuning mods are allowed. Intake exhaust and fancy electronics pay dividends. At the start of the season the Hawk ZX10's were running stock motors straight from the showroom floor due to logistic problems. No they weren't competitive enough to win any races but they were (and not unexpectedly) running high up the field. The point is I believe that you and I have a different idea of what economics are when it comes to Japanese and Italian manufacturers. In particular it is this comment of yours that I find utterly ridiculous........... Everyone THOUGHT that the Japs and Italians were going for BOTH, but they weren't, just making subtle refinement to a box that they all figured they had pretty close to perfect . Most companies choose power because it's a LOT easier. All you have to do is run a balancing act between component price and purchase price vs. your competitors... No REAL thinking involved in making power. There's certainly thinking involved in making power at a competitive price though, and that's where their thinking was pointed. As long as your bike handles as well (read - Pretty much the same) as theirs then why rock the boat when you have the vast majority of the buying public convinced that they can't handle any better or that all bikes are far superior to the general populations ability to ride them? Tell me how many times the R1 power plant has been revised since 1997? How about the 999 motor? You think Ducati have it easy trying to remain competitive in the face of changing rules in WSB racing. Then count the number of times since the 916 to the 999 that the crankcase design alone has changed never mind the rest of the motors component parts. Is todays current R1 running the same chassis as the 97 model? What about a K3 to K5 GSX1000R? How many modifications have Suzuki put this bike through in the past three years? Next years ZX10 there is rumour already that Kawasaki have a completely new bike to bring to market. No surprise at all when you look at how many different R1 models there have been in 7 years - neither looking like the previous in any way shape or form really. Doesn't look to me like these manufacturers are running a balancing act between component price and purchase price vs. your competitors... These manufacturers might have budget constraints to work to but I'll bet you that Buell have too and probably more so. Buell couldn't afford to get it wrong. The Japanese I'm sure too couldn't but if they did they would survive where as Buell might not. The Japanese manufacturers are ON IT as are the Italian's and don't let anyone tell you any different. The proof is in what they sell and what wins races. Buell don't sell to the same thousands of people the world over but they are happy to pick off a few strays on the side which suits 'em well. As for Buell in racing that can only be measured realistically as 'hobby' level and never as an attempt to win sales. The same cannot be said of the Japanese and Italian's who rely heavily on track success to sell certain models which is why your comments on economics are shallow to me. Rocket | ||
| Choldy |
Interesting argument, I just got rid of my 03 GSXR 600 and bought a 2002 XB9R, It makes me smile when I open the garage door, I like working on it (The gixer used to make me cuss a lot!) and I'm grinnin like a loon when I get off the Buell, works for me  | ||
| Elff |
Choldy hit the nail on the head It's all about the Grin Factor Ive never owned a bike that has made me obsess and think about it as much as this one. I have somewhere between mild and serious separation anxiety when I am not riding it. | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Tell me how many times the R1 power plant has been revised since 1997? Folks who dont investigate all the great bikes being produced now days have no idea. They think the japanese make a bike & other than changing some plastic on it, the motor never gets updated. Yamaha just like suzuki, Kawi, etc are continually refining their bikes. Every year the motors get smaller & more efficient. Hell I have no idea how many times they have updated it but I do know the 04 model has a completely different motor from the 03 model. Smaller, lighter, 20 more hp, etc. Look what Suzuki just did with their GSXR1000...the bike will absolutely demolish last years bike & that bike wasnt exactly a slouch. | ||
| Elff |
Same goes for the CBR600RR the 2005, while it looks the same, has a completely new design under the the plastic. The frame and engine are nothing like the one 2 years ago But I still like my current bike better. | ||
| M1combat |
I didn't say anything about any manufacturer sitting back on their haunches... It's quite obvious that they can't. What I DID say however, is that they build bikes based off of doing the LEAST they can do and still sell more bikes. Maybe you guys just don't really understand racing... It's about being the SLOWEST guy and still winning . The very fact that there are many revisions of a certain models engine only tells me two things... Either they didn't beat the competition by much (which is their goal... It's too costly to the bottom line to beat them by a long shot) or they just plain screwed the pooch on the engineering side somewhere... I'm not trying to bash any of the other manufacturers. I'm just calling it like I see it is all. Of course... As is the case with the '04 R1, Yamaha decided to jump it up a notch (probably because they got inside info on the '04 ZX10). What happens ONE YEAR later? Suzuki jumps in with a "slightly" better GSXR1K... Why didn't they do that in '04? Because they were only trying to stay "just" ahead of the Jones's... They were building bikes "just" faster than the competition (or generally making a good effort) so they could build the CHEAPEST bikes and still have a larger bottom line. I suppose all this assumes that you believe that Suzuki had the technology in '04 to build the '05 GSXR... I think they did... And MORE. Yes, I agree that Buell is in the same boat, but playing with a different box. The major portion of that box is superior to what the Japanese and Italian bikes are offering. The Japs have, again, Woken up the Dragon . "All you have to do is run a balancing act between component price and purchase price vs. your competitors... No REAL thinking involved in making power." There's still no REAL thinking involved in making power at the level they are doing it... They could ALL put >200HP bikes on the market. Why don't they? Because none of them have jumped into the pan with it so none of the others want to rock the boat. The thinking involved is making COMPETITIVE power at COMPETITIVE PRICE POINTS. They are most certainly NOT pushing ANY envelope with production bikes. Buell, however, has shoved the chassis envelope out a ways. They'll get to the engine in due time . | ||
| Vonsliek |
never mind all this •••• .. the motogp in laguna was a publicity stunt for usa viewers to come on board - NOT that nicky hayden & colin edwards lack the talent or bikes - it just when did u last see those guys beat vale so easily?! (its cool that it was contrived a bit or a lot, just seemed a little too transparent). i left my rear suspension maxed out for pillion (7 on ramp, & corresponding rebound & damping) but adjusted front for my weight .. handles like a dream .. makes bike fast turning & lets me get rear a little sideways on fast decelleration .. want yr buell to be more exciting for free? try same!! fyi .. front is 6 lines (170#) & 1.5 rebound & damping. awesome! i ride on ice cracked roads in terrible shape in calgary, aberta & it certainly make the xb MUCH more fun to ride! paul. | ||
| Rocketman |
Combat, I should know better than not to tangle with you in any topic. You really are best left to your own beliefs  Trust me when I say you will never convince me how economics work when it comes to building Japanese motorcycles. Thanks all the same but I beg to differ. Rocket | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I would be interested to see how much you both could LEARN from each other... There are a lot of bright individuals on this site, but sometimes we just wanna argue!  | ||
| M1combat |
I'm all for learning . I figure that if they aren't building superbike spec bikes for the street then there must be a reason. Can you tell me what that reason is Sean? | ||
| M1combat |
How come the only "mostly" Moto-GP spec bike we "may" get is from Ducati and it costs a FORTUNE? Doesn't that seem to indicate that the issue holding them back from selling race bikes is cost? If not, please inform me. I'm all ears. | ||
| Rocketman |
I figure that if they aren't building superbike spec bikes for the street then there must be a reason. But they are. They're called homologation specials. Each manufacturer competing has to build a minimum 150 homologation bikes for sale in the public domain. If next seasons bike is somewhat changed from last seasons then a minimum homologated 150 bikes must also be in place once again. The homologation rules are somewhat different for mass producing manufacturers but never the less Super Bike racing is based on street bikes and the rules cater to the needs of those machines being user friendly to a buying public and of course another biggy - it is important that they remain RELIABLE. I'd hazard a guess and say that's probably as costly from a manufacturing standpoint as building the all out unbeatable racer you speak of from the start Combat. Yes I'm aware that SB rules also cater to keep the costs down too but that is racing costs and not specifically manufacturing costs. How come the only "mostly" Moto-GP spec bike we "may" get is from Ducati and it costs a FORTUNE? MCN have already published some stuff including photos and tech info about a street version RCV211 *. Ducati are rumoured to be looking at WSB with their Moto GP bike and £35000 (suggest retail apparently LOL) doesn't seem a lot of money to me when you compare it to a high end Saab or middle of the road BMW or Mercedes saloon car sold in the UK. A little extreme perhaps but Cagiva will to this day build you to order their 500cc two stroke GP bike of the 1990's. That's a 200+ mph racer I grant you but the public can still buy it. However this is not our point here is it I agree. So yes this could indicate a cost issue but it doesn't. In fact it is much simpler than that. Moto GP is strictly for prototypes. Producing a street version of a current GP bike would see you lose your slots on the grid. This happened recently with the WCM team when they based their 03 racer on crankcases they'd cast that resembled R1 crankcases. It was a long winded and complex issue and WCM believed they'd conformed all the way with the prototype ruling but they lost their fight with the ruling body that season. Rocket * don't forget the rule changes for 2006 | ||
| M1combat |
"But they are. They're called homologation specials." Fine... But they are ONLY produced (IMO) so they can be used for racing. The VAST majority of bikes sold to the public are NOT homologation specials. They are just your average R1/Gixxer1K/ZX10/etc. As a matter of fact, I would bet that for your average joe a homologation special would be damn near impossible to buy w/o some measure of murder, black mail and "other stuff" . I was under the impression that these are the bikes we were talking about. If we're talking about homologation specials... Then sure, their performance probably doesn't have a LOT to do with the bottom line. I would, however, bet that the homologation specials are subsidized by the rest of the line. So... WRT the "standard" liter bikes... I still believe their performance level as they are sold on the showroom floor is about cost more than "the edge". The very existence of the homologation special pretty much proves this. On the subject of the road going RCV... I'd love to see it and yes, the rule changes for '06 seem to mean that Honda will pretty much need to do it (along with everyone else if I'm remembering the rule changes correctly...). This is a double edged sword though. The Hayabusa scared the law makers over here... Maybe that's another small portion of the reason for the displacement drop? Who knows. £35K seems like a VERY expensive "homologation special" to me... Business as usual it looks like . "So yes this could indicate a cost issue but it doesn't. In fact it is much simpler than that. Moto GP is strictly for prototypes." Again... I thought we were discussing IL4 1000's. My bad . | ||
| Citified |
all I am hearing is people comparing apples to oranges. Buells are standards, not sport bikes. They excel at totally different things, just like you dont compare a hayabusa to an R1. Two different animals I got my buell because it is more comfortable, totally wicked looking and I easily save the extra money it costs on insurance. Plus I fit in to more crowds be it with my friends on sport bikes or at the local biker bar. there is no way to tell a person there opinions are wrong. I call it the politics of motorcycling. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ok I'm trying to stay with your line of thought so let's stay with commerce. You or anyone else can walk into a Ducati dealer today and buy a 999R. Likewise you can buy the homologation Honda Suzuki or Kawasaki from respective dealers. Yes they are limited editions and they price somewhat higher but they are not unobtanium to you or I or anyone else. As far as I can tell and it's just my opinion the rules in Super Bike racing cater primarily to make the racing competitive between the brands participating. I'm not in a position to agree or disagree with your analogy from a professional standpoint but my enthusiast cap firmly planted on my head says that when a manufacturer wants to win at WSB for example BUDGET saving is the last thing on their agenda. Accordingly I don't believe for a moment that the mass produced street vehicle is produced down to a price. I'd wager a price per unit is set but the base line of that price is not determined by how cheap that unit cost can be made to be. If it were Japanese bikes would not be the quality product they are today. The fact that they are quality and that they win races and that they remain utterly reliable on a grand scale is why the Japanese are still producing and selling motorcycles that work and fit the purpose. My conclusion is that they are not constrained by cost alone providing they continue to sell and turn a profit and serve a commercial purpose. Sometimes that could even mean selling at a loss. Who knows. Rocket | ||
| Davefla |
I know this, Rocket: irrespective of price baselines (have to be able to come in at a price point close to the other three marques, whatever else you do,) they GOT to be selling a lot of hi-profit cruisers to pay just for the engineering content in the crotch rockets... and now, they're moving to a business model in the cruisers that mimics HDI's. |
