| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>"I got all these extra ponies but what can I do?" You....GET IT. You are about to win a t-shirt. Court Horsepower exceeding the constraints of ability and conditions is. . . dear friends. . the motorcycle equivalent of aviations "runway behind you" and "altitude above you" in terms of value | ||
| Xgecko |
Hell Court here on O'ahu there ain't no place to use "all" of a Buell's power (legally and for the most part even illegally for more than a mile) much less the current crop of I4 bikes. Definition of too much bike for the roadway? Busa, but there are a ton of them on the roads...and a few in the junkyard. | ||
| Eeeeek |
I'll bite. A little straight will do. Now take the same scenario except insert a GSXR1000 or a Mille or a 954 or an R1 or a CBR600F4i or a ZX6R or a GSXR750 or a GSXR600 or a ZX9 or etc. Power can be your friend, too. I'm trying to remain optimistic about the lil' bolt; however, it's so far down on power that it's hard to be. I watched a stock ZX6R pull 100+ rwhp at a dyno and I can tell you a ZX6R can handle with the best of them. I'm hoping that it will torque its way through the corners and prove to be an absolute delight to ride. At the same time, if someone like me, who is already a Buell fanatic, is a little sceptical about the lik' bolt, then what chance does it have in the open market where Buell already has a reputation of being underpowered, overpriced and unreliable? Vik | ||
| Jim_M |
It seems to me that the Firebolt is aimed at those who value technique over outright performance (perhaps it's a case of those who want to be a better all around rider v. those who want to pose/scare the shit out of themselves...SQUID? Of course, that is not an accurate statement, but maybe it's something to think about?). Having just purchased a '98 Bandit 1200, I can testify that it has more power than I'll ever need or use, but it is a hefty beast (what's a ZX6R weigh?). a 385 dry weight (I'll even go by the 411 dry weight Motorcyclist published [speaking of which, Burnsie is gone now...guess I'll let my sub expire, but I digress]) makes the Firebolt look mighty tasty...to me, anyway. I will definitely be in line to test one of these bad boys out! (the wife gave the OK to get another bike in 4-5 years, so I'll be watching all future Buell developments with great interest ) | ||
| S320002 |
Vik, "Dyno blindness" can be devious thing. Recently a group of riders was given access to a race track and many of the bikes you listed including the 'Busa. Prior to spending time on the track with these bikes many felt that all they needed was "a little straight" for the Superbikes. They soon found out that their best lap times were on bikes with less, but more controlable, power. Granted these guys weren't AMA Pro class riders but they weren't rookies by any means. Riding on public roads would only make these differences more apparent. If everyone could could take test rides on a tight, technical race track "dyno blindness" would be a lot less prevalent. That's not to say YOU couldn't use a few extra HP on the track, I've seen you ride. Greg | ||
| Eeeeek |
Ahhh, but "Dyno blindness" is a reality. People buy bikes based on spec sheets. You can't test ride most bikes, so a lot of people depend on the rags. You already killed one of my arguments before I could start it, dagnabit! I remember at my last track day having a real bear of a time getting past a guy on a Daytona. We weren't allowed to pass on the inside and this guy would take the corners very wide and then hammer it on the straights. It would have been easy to dive in on him, but that would get me black flagged. I finally outbraked him on a corner and got by. I still had to out brake him before the next corner to make the pass stick. Truth be known, the Buell has more power than I can handle. So why am I griping about needing more power? There's something about really wringing out a gear and the explosive acceleration some of the other bikes provide. I'm also a little sick of getting beat in a drag by a 600! When I'm riding the Buell hard, I feel like I'm riding at 10/10ths. When I ride the same pace on, lets say a Mille, I feel like I'm riding at 6/10th. Some of that's power delivery, some of that's handling and some of it's ergos. Moral of the story: I want it all. If I had to choose between awesome handling and sic power, I'd take the handling. This is on a sliding scale, though, and I'm not about to switch to a YSR50. There is a balance that can be had and I've seen what I consider to be darn near perfect in a few bikes. So why can't we have some more power out of the Firebolt? I bet we will in not too long. Vik | ||
| Blake |
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| Blake |
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| Mark_In_Ireland |
Full MCN report taken from UKBEG site:- The report in full: Is it a sports bike, a street fighter or a cool roadster for riders who prefer something a little different? According to American firm Buell, its new XB9R Firebolt is all three. But, most important, it's the first in a new generation of models aimed squarely at riders on this side of the Atlantic. This has meant a major change of approach for the company which up until now has had a reputation for quirky, Harley-powered street bikes. OK, an air-cooled Harley-derived 984cc V-twin is at the heart of the Firebolt. But the two-valves-per-cylinder motor is a potent one, producing over 90bhp and boasting a compression ratio of 10:1, which is closer to that of a Japanese superbike than an American cruiser. It's housed in an aluminium beam frame that also doubles as a 14-litre fuel tank. In future, all Buells will have beam rather than tubular frames. Oil is stored inside the swingarm and the XB9R also has a rim-mounted brake disc at the front. All interesting stuff. But the question everyone will ask is: Does this package deliver? And my first impression, after riding it at one of the twistiest tracks in Europe, is yes, it does. The Buell handles well and inspires confidence. Choosing to launch it at a circuit like Valencia was a brave move for Buell. The 2.4-miole Spanish track has 14 corners and is a tough test for any chassis, brakes and tyres, not to mention rider. The beautifully balances Firebolt feels composed and encourages you to push hard. The motor produces enough grunt to be fun, but not enough to threaten breaking traction from the sticky Dunlop D207 tyres. The bike turns sharply, but never gets unstable, the brakes are strong, but not over the top and it seems to weigh next to nothing. While the Buell's spec is futuristic, it all works together beautifully. When you're riding it you don’t think about the fuel in the frame, the oil in the swingarm or geometry that is similar to a 250cc GP bike. You're simply concentrating on getting around the next corner. And that's what the bike is so good at. Valencia has several 180 degree corners that just seem to go on and on. Even at serious lean angles, the Buell is so settled you actually start to wonder if you could get your elbow down as well as your knee. The only thing that stops me trying is the thought that the bike's creator, Erik Buell, is in the pits and I don't really fancy bumping into him carrying bits of his bike. The XB9R is tiny for a 1000cc bike, but I don't find it cramped despite being over 6ft. With a dry weight of just 175kg (385lb) flicking it from side to side requires little effort. With a 1320mm wheelbase and a 21 degree steering head angle - an amazing 75mm and three degrees less than the set-up on the new Yamaha R1 - you'd expect the Buell to be twitchy. But, no matter how busy you get, it doesn't become flustered. It always drops predictably into corners and feels totally planted. This is partly because of the new alloy beam chassis, which is a huge improvement over the tubular frame on previous Buells, but also down to brilliant weight distribution - Buell philosophy dictates that mass is kept low-down and central. Everything that can be lightened has been - even the footpegs have sections cut out. If it wasn't essential, Buell junked it. The 92bhp motor works well. Torque is very linear and from 4000rpm to the 75000rpm limit, it pulls cleanly and with no surges, thanks to an automatic tensioner which eliminates and slap from the drive belt Buell favours over a conventional chain. The only real black mark is over the gearbox. Many riders on the launch commented on the number of false neutrals they were getting, mainly when changing down at high speed. According to Buell, this can be eliminated by adjusting the gear lever and it only really happens with hard track use. In typical Buell fashion, the clutch is also quite stiff. The radical rim-mounted discs work well. The single six-piston caliper is lacking slightly in initial feel, but there's loads of power when you need it. Considering the number of technological advances on the Firebolt, it's highly impressive that Buell has got it so right at its first attempt. It handles brilliantly, has enough power for most people and looks great. If this is the future for Buell, we've a lot to look forward to. | ||
| Smadd |
"People buy bikes based on spec sheets. You can't test ride most bikes, so a lot of people depend on the rags." Says who? IMO, specs and rags are simply a tool to consider. Some aren't worth the paper they're written on. I've never bought a bike that a writer or spec sheet "told" me to buy. The big Harleys sell rather well, don't they? They probably wouldn't fair too well on the spec sheets. But then (in possible anticipation), will Harley riders be stereotyped as not being "true" motorcyclists? Not by me. Now, let's see. What riders might be heavily eyeballing the spec sheets? And how often must they buy to keep up with the latest and greatest specs? Steve | ||
| S320002 |
Thanks Court, XL oughta do it. ;-) Vik, Looks like we're in agreement, especialy about the handling/power issue. Can't diagree with anything you said, although we both know the spec sheet tends to be less important as experience increases. Oh and if you won't settle for a YSR 50 there's always that sweet little Aprilla 50. ;-) Greg | ||
| Eeeeek |
Sheez, Steve, please don't make me argue symantecs. By "people" I didn't mean all people, I meant "a substantial number of people who buy sport bikes, the people that Buell needs to attract to increase sales." Even people who don't buy entirely based off the spec sheet will still balk at anything sub 100 hp. The dyno sheets blake posted show the all the competition at above 90 REAR WHEEL hp. If the lil' bolt has 92 at the crank, I imagine that will translate to high 70's, maybe 80 hp at the rear wheel, and that's with 400 more cc's and a higher price tag. That's going to be tough for many people to swallow. Torque, if I can use the current bikes as a model, will probably be in the low 50's at the rear wheel. Not that much more than the others. Again, I'm just speculating here and I'm going to give the bike a chance. I'm going to test ride one and see how I like it. I'm looking for a bike that will inspire confidence like no other in the corners. Not just tight little corners, but sweepers, too. I want a bike I can ride without compromise. I've grown to like V-Twins. I like belt drives. I like weird and unusual. Will the lil' bolt be that bike? I'm not holding my breath; at the same time, I'm not writing it off, either. Vik | ||
| Eeeeek |
Greg, I do use a spec sheet as a general guideline. I'll look at wheelbase, weight and a couple of other things. Fortunately, I have enough riding buddies on different bikes that I've been able to try out just about every bike I wanted to (still haven't snuck my way onto an F4 yet, though). I really wish I could get a 'bolt on a track. I do want to like the bike. Vik | ||
| Mark_In_Ireland |
And the interview with the man: The Firebolt is the brainchild of Erik Buell, 51, who left Harley-Davidson in 1983 to set up the firm that bears his name. He launched the Thunderbolt a year later with his own frame design and a Harley engine. MCN caught up with him in Valencia and found that he's now created the bike he always wanted. MCN: What inspired you to make the Firebolt? BUELL: I love the handling of 250cc race bikes, but I hate the motors. I wanted to make a small and nimble bike with loads of torque. MCN: What have you got against fuel tanks? BUELL: I wanted a big air box, which left no room for a tank. Putting the fuel in the frame means we can have a big airbox and keep the bike small. MCN: And what was wrong with a sump? BUELL: As the bike is so small there is no room behind the engine. We tried putting the oil in the subframe but that affected the balance. Storing it near the swingarm pivot doesn't affect the handling. MCN: Is there any advantage to using rim-mounted discs? BUELL: I wanted the front wheel to be as light as possible to help the bike turn faster. Our research found that normal discs transfer most stress through the spokes. Rim discs let us use lighter spokes. MCN: Air-cooled motors are pretty dates now for sports bikes, surely? BUELL: With water-cooling you need radiators and loads of hoses. I wanted to keep the bike small. The air-cooled motor provided the acceleration and power we needed. MCN: Are you happy with the bike? BUELL: Definitely. The best day was last autumn when we took a pre-production bike to a tight, twisty track. It ran brilliantly and then I knew it was perfect. MCN: How do you plan to follow the Firebolt? BUELL: The Firebolt is a platform to build derivatives, but there is no rush. I want to get it right. Europe is a big market and it is important it gets to know the bike first. | ||
| Court |
That's very cool and says alot. Court { who pretty much thought it was perfect in 1989....  ) | ||
| Davegess |
Man i can't wait to get mine!!!. I have talked to Erik and what he is saying publicly is the same things he is saying privatly. Actually I think he is holding back a bit piblicly. He is personally very very pumped about how much fun this bike is. Tha MCN story could hardly be better. i wonder when we will see the first comparason test? I bet Cycle World will have one very soon. dave | ||
| Rashomon |
I hear CW may have one in a couple of weeks; that puts the story 2 to 3 months out. Lead times, you know. | ||
| Bigblock |
Vik- I ride with a bunch of guys on 600's, R6's, Suzi's, etc. I have never been beat by any of these guys in a drag race or below 100 mph roll-on, over 100's a different story... if I'm in front of em thru 3rd gear twisties... seeya! Again, they definitely have the advantage in the 100+ stuff, but I don't care for that on the street too much, and even the psycho guys I ride with don't knock my bike anymore...('00 M2,cams pipe, aircleaner, tune, rearsets, heads never off...) | ||
| Eeeeek |
Bigblock: You're in the Bay Area, right? Come on down to Mines Road, I'm betting you'll love it. Very tight and technical, a road where handling means more than hp. I've taken down 929's, 996's and others there. At the same time, I had my ass handed to me by a GSXR600, too. Vik | ||
| Xgecko |
It's rather funny you look at articles written by the Amercan motorcycle press and compare it to those written by the Europen press. The US guys have an obsesion with Japanese bikes and their horsepower the guys on the other side of the Atlantic seem more intrigued by handling. I've noticed this in all the British motorcycle rags. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that their advertising isn't based on the big 4...just cheap porn. | ||
| Srl |
Five more Firebolt demos and the last time I remember having this feeling was after about a half dozen X1 demos. If they just had one with a V&H can on it I'd be reaching for my wallet. When I demo'ed the X1 years ago at a dealer event, they had one bike of the 10 with the Race ECM/K&N/V&H setup. After several rides on the stockers I was leaning and they said "If you're thinking about it, you have to ride this one." That was a ride I will never forget. The Firebolt is an awesome machine. It feels like a TZ250 racer, and when you kick it from first to second you'd better be hanging on. Driven fast the front wheel regularly catches air going through the gears just like the "other" sportbikes (how 'bout that.) It may be down on horses but in the real world I don't think you would ever notice. A nice race kit and this will be a hotrod. I hope the reliability turns out to be above avg. The leaned over bike that was pictured earlier from a show is also here at the demo tent and it had an oil soaked paper towel wrapped on one of the oil lines. Thinking about it now, why would they have even serviced a prop bike? SRL | ||
| Xgecko |
SRL, it is probably ridden in between appearences at the various shows. Lean any bike over for an extended peroid and you will likely se a leak. Who would want to haul around a bike that can't run? That would make it like the NAS prototype. | ||
| Xgecko |
More Firebolt news...From RRW Ciccotto's View Of Racing Buell Firebolt In AMA Superstock From a press release: CICCOTTO TO MAKE HISTORY? The 2002 AMA road racing season is about to kick off and one man who is determined to make history is Mike Ciccotto. The Hal’s Harley-Davidson rider (www.halshd.com) has extended his two year tenure with the team by recently signing an exclusive agreement with Hal’s for two more years. After winning the 2000 Formula USA Buell Lightning National Championship with Hal’s and finishing a very close 2nd in the 2001 AMA Buell Pro Thunder Championship, Ciccotto will welcome Shawn Higbee as his new teammate on the squad. For 2002, Mike plans on not only contesting the 2002 Buell Pro Thunder Championship, but also the 2002 AMA Superstock Championship (yes, against all those water-cooled Suzuki GSXR-750s!) – all from the perch of his new Buell Firebolt racebike. Entering the final round of the Pro Thunder Championship at Road Atlanta last fall, Ciccotto had to qualify on pole, lead the most laps, and win the race in order to tie Thomas Montano in points and consequently win the championship in a more-wins tie breaker. Mike was up to the task, running the fastest time late in the qualifying session and feeling good about his chances to win the title. In the last few minutes of qualifying his bike began overheating and he was forced to pit early, but he felt confident that his time would stand. With just one lap to spare, however, Montano managed a time that was slightly quicker, earning the pole position and the extra point! Although Ciccotto ended up dominating the race and led the most laps (which earned him an extra point), Montano finished 3rd in the race and won the championship by a scant 2 points! That 1 extra point Ciccotto lost in qualifying (and gained by Montano) effectively was the only difference in the championship. So if his 2001 season is any indication, 2002 will prove to be even more exciting one for Ciccotto and for Buell fans, as he attempts to avenge his Pro Thunder Championship loss, while at the same time making history in the Superstock class with the Buell Firebolt. But how can an air-cooled American bike compete against super fast water-cooled Suzuki GSX-Rs? “The new bike is very precise and a lot easier to ride because of the fuel injection; the throttle response is so much better, and it has more power. It just feels more like a race bike than my old bike did. So at the tighter tracks I think it’s going to do quite well. As an example, at the North Florida Motorsports Park a month ago, we went (unofficially) faster in one day of testing, on used tires, than any Suzuki there has been. We were very close to beating the track record. The bike is so incredible. And that was on used tires! Not only were they used, but the tires came to the track on the bike and had already been tested and used before I got on them. So it gave me hope that I’m not only going to be able to put the bike on the podium this year, but also win some Superstock races as well, which would be incredible for Hal’s Harley-Davidson and for anybody who is a fan of Buell motorcycles. If we can win a (Superstock) race, it would be history making and I have the confidence that we can do just that. As far as I know, there has never been an American bike to finish on the podium of an AMA Supersport or Superstock national. That’s all the motivation I need.” “But I’m really interested to see how it will do at the Superspeedway this weekend. I know the bike will do well at the tighter tracks, but I’m looking forward to running it at Daytona and seeing how well the new bike is going to cut through the air on the bankings and in the draft.” “I have never before looked forward to the start of a season as I do this year,” says Kirk Topel, Owner of Hal’s Harley-Davison. “I could not be happier to have the services of, in my opinion, the top privateer in AMA road racing today. Having worked with Mike the past two seasons we know what Mike is capable of. Over that time the team has continued to grow and to improve, by winning a Formula USA title (2000) and giving Ducati all they could handle in AMA Buell Pro Thunder (2001). Our team chemistry and a two year commitment to the future, I feel, gives us a definite advantage assisting the Buell Motor Company in a successful launch of this new motorcycle. I know we will surprise some people in 2002 and not just in Pro Thunder. Mike’s commitment ensures that success." | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Boy do I hope that is true...time will tell. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
Slap 115rwhp on that 'Bolt and sign me up! The press this new creation from Mr. Buell is getting is phenomenal! I haven't read a single bad thing about it yet... I...just...need...more...POWER! Vik, your losing drags to 600's on your X-1? Why? Something must be wrong a 600 is not getting anymore rwhp than your Buell is, at least not in anything resembling stock form. Wyoming is isolated and all, but I have yet to see a 600 up here that could really even get close. I seen lots GSXR750 riders that thought they were the poop, they got the power but most of 'em have no skills. Buh bye! Even a GSXR 1000, poorly ridden, can be taken by an S3T pilot...sidepacks and all. I'm looking forward to riding with you at MITM. | ||
| Eeeeek |
DN: I lost to a ZX6R ridden by a guy who is about the same weight as me. We started at about 15 mph and he nudged me by a little. Earlier in the day, we both made dyno runs and he pulled 103 rwhp while I pulled 92. I killed him in torque, but the real world showed me how it is. The only mod to his bike was a pipe. I'm still going back to that thought I had all those months ago. 10:1 compression on the lil' bolt is just begging for a turbocharger... Vik | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
Ahhh, that helps explain it then. I won't usually start from a roll like that. If I do I launch at 10mph or less. That first 15mph is where you make your best distance (in my experience...limited though it may be) against the I4 bikes. While there still trying to get wound up all that lucious Buell torque is shooting my fat butt on down the concrete! I'm assuming that you did that at HIS request, since roll on drag races are for people who can't launch their bike correctly. If you can't even properly launch your bike from a standing stop how well can you really RIDE? Re-run that race from a standing start...I'll bet he loses every time. Run him on the Tiller, that'll show him whose boss! Just my .02, please don't anyone be offended by my hick opinion. Okay? | ||
| Eeeeek |
It was an impromptu thing. There were three of us leaving a stop light and he caem up beside us and got on it. We all jumped on the gas and it was he and I while the other two bikes, Hayabusas, were on another planet by that point. I have given the TLR a run and OHMYGOD, it is motivated! On a side note, I find it difficult to launch the Buell from a stand still. It's a pain in the ass to keep the front wheel down from launch and as I shift to second it comes up again, too. Vik | ||
| S320002 |
The predominant thing that I've noticed about Buells is that people get all tangled up in trying to compare them with something else. They don't fit neatly into any of the templates the Motomags have been using of years. The AMA can't find nice, neat pigeonhole for them in their race classes. You can't compare the Buell engine to anything else in a way that makes sense. Styling is so completely unique that it spawned a whole new generation of naked and "half-nude" bikes from overseas, but even these are not directly comparable to a Buell. If the AMA wants to allow Buells to race they will have to make some sort of accommodation similar to what they have made for four-stroke dirt bikes and four-strokes in the 250 GP class. If this is too difficult perhaps they should just go to NASCAR style racing and allow only bikes that fit neatly into the templates. If the Motomags are going give fair coverage to Buells they too are going to have to recognize that a Buell is unique and test it on its own merits. Until Buell builds a less unique bike riders are going buy it because they appreciate Buell for what it is, not because it's "like" some other brand. Whether Buell lives or dies because of its unique character only time will tell. I'm betting it lives. Oh, oh, I've done it again maybe I should just shut up and ride. Greg | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
Eeek, Well you've got me on that one. I have the advantage, or disadvantage depending on how you look at it I guess, of being 200+ pounds AND riding an S3T. More weight upfront = stronger launches without lofting the front wheel. Maybe you should do an X-3 conversion and start eating more Italian and German food? |
