| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Anony: Are you mucking with me or what?! Please post that on the Quick Board. This page is for Firebolt related discussions. | ||
| S320002 |
Jim, No confusion here just some skeptisism. I've done thousands of 3D CAD models. Things don't always turn out the way you planned. Good luck to Ducati. I hope they kick some butt. Greg | ||
| Dynodave |
I was checking the DynoJet site the other day, and noted that they have a P/N for a Firebolt Power Commander. I'm getting my 'Bolt on Day One, and between Modesto Buell, Yankee Enginuity, and of course a bit of Dyno Dave's wrenchng, its a safe bet that my Bolt will remain more than competitive with any new Bolt model that happens to come out. Yes, that ported MaxT/Fuelling head with the custom billet front mount/boss is now sitting at Yankee Enginuity. See it at the March ASBN meet in Dublin!!! (A SECOND set of heads/pistons/cyls will go into the 'Bolt in 2003!!!) X12BR-8, baby!!! | ||
| Blake |
ALL the naysayers and poopooers will be silenced. I wish. Buell could invent a bike that wins World SBK and there would still be naysayers and poopooers. Dave, where you getting this interesting information?   | ||
| Dynodave |
My info comes from... Various Buell sites; especially the description of the race Bolt. Yankee Enginuity...THE Fueling experts!!! ...and of course a lot of 'sweat equity' experience wrenching my 88" S-1. The plan is to first convert the S-1 to the Fueling heads using a pair of Mikuni 41 Flat Slides, and then I will parlay the experience gained to do the job on the Bolt about a year later. (retaining the downdraft FI setup) Those Fueling heads flow about 50% better than the 2-valvers ESPECIALLY when they are sitting on a big-bore cylinder; and the Undersquare specs on the 'Bolt (also running the 3.813 bore) will REALLY hook up. The really kewl thing is the totally different engine note...like a V-Rod...that the 4-valvers have. | ||
| Anonymous |
I think you mean "Oversquare" | ||
| Mikej |
So, does anyone have a verifiable site or source for the "press release" on the elimination of the tube-framed Buell models apart from the indirect article posted somewhere above in the archives. I didn't look too hard for it, but saw nothing on either the H-D or Buell sites. Just looking for some validity beyond one source, and trying to root out some other stuff. Thanks. | ||
| Sarodude |
Echo MikeJ... -Saro | ||
| S320002 |
Jim/V2win, Did you read the latest on the Duc GP bike in Motorcyclist? They claim its a V twin with approximately 210 hp which may or may not have a desmo valve train. It might have pneumatic vavles, or not. It might have a hugely over square engine at 114mm x 48.4mm, or not. Add these roumors to all the other roumors and you have a very strange GP engine indeed. Or not. I have no doubt that Ducati will have a GP engine I just wouldn't bet an congiuration or specs just yet. Greg | ||
| Iggy |
almost all the gp news i've seen (except the number of cylinders used and approx HP) as been vague or contradictory however, i'm waiting to see it all slip down to street level anyways | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
- Ducati GP motor is a V4, not a twin. They heavily researched a twin (as their brand is tied to twins) but the V4 allowed for acceptable GP power w/ marginal weight penalty. - You *WILL* see this technology trickle down, probably fairly quickly. Just don't hold your breath for a 200rwhp engine from the factory. - you will see variable valve timing; more 3 cyl. engines, more V4 and V5 engines in street bikes; more use of pneumatic and other valve actuation devices (electronic and magnetic probably being a close second).... - will you see this in a Buell...we'll see. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Blake |
Variable valve timing is the "next big thing" for performance engines from where I see things. The challenge is fitting it into a motorcycle engine in a simple and reliable package. When it is worked out we should be able to say hello to astoundingly strong torque curves from just off idle up to redline. | ||
| Xgecko |
The word I read on the Ducati was that they researched the freaky v twin but could get over the RPM/Power requirements as a safe for the engine state of operation. They chose a V4 because it can be assembled in a similar to a vtwin configuation. A V4 ould be interesting as it has similar torque to a twin but the revs of a 4. a good balance if you ask me (which noone has or likely will). Most of the teams have, it seems, backed down from the 200rwhp level because they can't figure a way to use it. 180hp or so seems to be about what is being used. | ||
| Jssport |
"Yes, that ported MaxT/Fuelling head with the custom billet front mount/boss" Dynodave, What kind of pipe header mods are you doing to adapt the 3 bolt exhaust flange on those 4 valve heads, a cut and weld job? | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
[quote] Variable valve timing is the "next big thing" for performance engines from where I see things. The challenge is fitting it into a motorcycle engine in a simple and reliable package. When it is worked out we should be able to say hello to astoundingly strong torque curves from just off idle up to redline. [/quote] Micro-processor controlled inlet/exhaust valves I wonder? I'm thinking of some of the very advanced Diesel injection systems, not entirely dissimilar technology lifting a needle valve and lifting a poppet valve is it? Steve steve@ukbeg.com http://ukbeg.com/ | ||
| Davegess |
"Variable valve timing " How about SAAB's variable compression ratio engine? The head/block combo moves in relation to the crankcase allowing different compression ratios under different conditions. dave | ||
| Rocketman |
Dave : Nice to know someone else is watching SAAB There's a whole bunch of stuff about the variable compression motor on Saab's web site. They state that one of the big advantages is the motors ability to put out strong powetr outputs across the rev range from a small capacity, ie 1600cc. Ducati : One of the major reasons behind Ducati choosing a V4 is they know how superior the V twin power delivery has been out of corners in WSB racing. This is why the V4 will have the pistons working in pairs rather than sequence. The theory is, massive power with a large gap between power pulses, thus giving better traction and extended tyre life. from what I've read, they are serious about racing in GP's and they want to win. It's a massive task but who knows what's ahead until the Four Stroke season starts. Rocket in England | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Hey Blake, have you seen the details on Honda's first gen. bike VVT??? Very trick, simple pin operated by oil pressure....really adds very little to packaging issues. ================= Don't be surprised to see the V4 and V5 engines that run both by the bank and sequentially...the joys of EFI w/ coil on plug. The lumpy twin like bank firing for powering out of corners, running sequentially down the straights for a bit more top end and better fuel economy...just something a little birdie told me they've been working on. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| S320002 |
Neil, Electronic control of the ignition and injection ought to work but that little birdie must have some really wild ideas for cam timing. Greg | ||
| Anonymous |
How does the current Vtec Honda motor actually alters the valve timing? | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Greg, nothing magical. The same system for variable valve timing would easily accomodate the aforementioned setup...now beginning to see why I've been talking so much about VVT? Or even wilder...look at what BMW has done w/ the new 7 series engine...throttle directly controls cam timing, no throttle/throttle body. These GP motors are going to techno-wonders. Anony, car or bike setup? They're totatlly different. I can't find the link right now, but here's another one that shows the m/c vtec system: Click Here Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| S320002 |
Neil, Typical VVT changes valve timing by no more than a few degrees. What I question is the ability of these systems to change valve timing far enough to accomodate a change in firing order. Magneticaly operated valves with EC could work but would require huge ammounts of electrical energy to run at 15,000 rpm. Not very practical since most race bikes run total lost electrical systems. If you see that little birdie again ask him for a few more details, I'd be interested in his response. Greg | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Your still thinking that camshafts are even going to be used. Electro-mechanical and/or pneumatic valve actuation directly on the valve, no need for camshaft...therefore, the computer can shift valve events whenever it pleases. Why would it take lots of energy? With no camshaft, there's not even a need for springs and whatnot...Shouldn't really take *that* much energy to open and close a valve??? (but I'm no EE) It's still in development stages at this point...but is coming to a race engine soon. Actually, most of bikes aren't total loss anymore as many of the sanctioning bodies require them to be self-starting. The weight ends up being roughly the same (loose camshafts, add a batery and other bits) with the benefits far outweighing the negatives. Pretty cool, huh? Unfortunately, I can't give much more specific details as I don't know them...my buddy is one of the engineers developing one of these systems and is under a strict confidentiality agreement...but knowing him and the goal, it's not too hard to figure out the broad approach...but, as we all know, success is in the details! Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| S320002 |
"Your (You're) still thinking that camshafts are even going to be used. . Electro-mechanical and/or pneumatic valve actuation directly on the valve, no need for camshaft...therefore, the computer can shift valve events whenever it pleases. Why would it take lots of energy? With no camshaft, there's not even a need for springs and whatnot...Shouldn't really take *that* much energy to open and close a valve??? (but I'm no EE) " I made reference whatsoever to cams or their use. I referenced currently typical VVT only to suggest that it would not be feasible. I did mention the option of using electromagnetic valve actuation (no cams required). There are other options each with it's own significant, I believe, challenges. Electro-Mechanical: 1. Use of electromagnets to open and close the valves. This requires powerful electromagnets to overcome valve inertia at high engine speeds. Magnetic operation could be bi-directional or one way with a mechanical or pneumatic return spring. Lots of electrical power, wiring and electronic relays required. 2. Stepper motors to open and close valves. This would require SUPER high speed and powerful stepper motors and again lots of power, wiring and relays. 3. Rotary valves operated by stepper motors. Again the stepper motors would have to be super high speed. As with all rotary valve engines seals are a challenge. This might be the most practical of the electro-mechanical options. | ||
| S320002 |
Electro-Pneumatic: First of all, let me specify that the current "pneumatic valves" used in F1 racing are nothing more than compressed-air "springs" used to prevent valve float at extreme engine speeds. Air springs do not suffer from harmonics associated with mechanical springs. 1. Single action pneumatic cylinders with pneumatic return springs. This would require very high air/gas pressures to counteract the return spring pressure and valve inertia. A high pressure bottle could be used for short time operation but, a compressor would be needed for longer runs. Air line size would be critical for fit pressure and speed requirements. Pneumatic cylinder seals would likely be short lived. 2. Double acting pneumatic cylinders to actuate valves. Again as valve speeds increase gas pressure would have to increase geometrically to overcome valve inertia. I could go on but this is already way to long. Bottom line; Don't expect a switch hitting engine on a track near you for at least four or five years. Greg | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
It's all a challenge, that's why you won't see any of this on a street engine for (I'd guess) a decade or more. A little more info, they're testbedding some of this technology currently. They expect to have race-ready operational systems w/in 2 yrs...but things can happen. Still wildly fascinating, to me at least. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Anonymous |
O.K. now that the XB9R has seen daylight in Australia( preproduction bike )I can tell you that I have sat on it. First impression is the size of the thing,how did they get it all in one package or is there another box of bits that comes with it that could not be fitted in the space allowed.Looks narrow but then I am used to looking over the tank of an X1.Now I am getting just a little anxious . Has the launch button been pressed,has production started and when will I get mine? I am getting weird looks from motorcycle shop owners when I go into the store to inhale eau de motorcycle and I think they are going to call the men in white coats if I start to scratch and sniff a Dunlop .Help me out here I am getting desperate .Put me out of my misery I need to know. | ||
| Sarodude |
I don't remember where I read it but I believe Firebolts very recently started production. Somebody confirm or shoot down please... -Saro | ||
| Anonymous |
Yes, it's in production. Shipments start soon. | ||
| S320002 |
US release date/celebration 4/27/02. Don't know when it will show up is Oz perhaps you should ask the man behind the curtain. ;-) Greg |
