| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
Dang 2k message limit!  I had to forgoe the novel I typed!!! Here's a simple litmus test for you though, is Buell making or losing money for Harley-Davidson? I'll bet they have done nothing but lose Harley money, if I'm right then they are NOT a successful company and are NOT doing it right. Profit is, after all, the lifeblood of any business. If they are making money I will be impressed, but still saddened to think how much better they COULD be doing. Let there be no misunderstanding, I want to see Buell grow and suceed, not remain a manufacturer relegated to forever churning out quirky niche bikes. I want a bike manufacturer that wins races for SOMEONE if I don't personally race and win. I WISH Buell would build motorcycles that didn't leak oil, blow speedos and didn't give up a 20% power advantage to bikes with half their displacement. I want *Buell* to succeed, and I want to give them my money. They SAY they are in the market for customers like me (The sportbike market) but their product offerings make that a lie. Mmmmm, ham sandwich! Thanks, now I'm hungry!!! BTW Jeff, if over 30% (3 of 10) of your sales contacts resulted in you referring your potential customer to someone else...would you expand your product offering? :D One last thing, I'm not saying Buell has it all wrong...I'm saying that they need to step back and take a hard look at how they are doing things and if this is REALLY the direction they want to pursue. | ||
| Mikej |
Anony2klimit, The Firebolt has many aspects that are (from my viewpoint) designed to reduce manufacturing/assembly costs and time, share common parts across product lines, and increase market share. To call something a "lie" because they missed you specifically, and then to imply that "you" means they missed the whole market is, shall we say, myopic at best. How can you say they missed the market when the bike isn't on the functional market yet? How can you say they missed the market when the test ride reports where competitor Sportbikes were available for comparison at the track mostly all say the Firebolt is dead on target? My opinion, don't shoot the cook or complain about the meal until you have actually had at the very least the first bite of said meal. Just an opinion. Now wipe that mustard off your cheek. | ||
| Anonymous |
LOL! I love this place! In case anyone is wondering I already own a pair of Buells. So I'm not just complaining as an outsider. Buell IS missing my wants specifcially but I don't view my own desires as "the market". I am looking around at what SPORT BIKE riders want as a whole. I'm going to retreat from this discussion now, since I'm having trouble mainting the thrust of what I wanted to say and I'm beginning to think I don't fully understand my disapointment/disillusionment with the Buell marquis. Happy riding! :D | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I'll be glad to nit pick, and selectively take statements out of context as well...but why waste anymore bandwidth? See the forest, not the trees....and if your man enough to throw shit specifically at me, at least have the common courtesy to respond. I'll follow Anonymous out the door. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Mikej |
:D, By speaking/typing we help to dredge out thoughts from within the recesses of our minds and clarify those thoughts via dialog and inquiry. Ranting, complaining, judging, observing, comparing, relating, requesting, and questioning, all lead to a better understanding of either our issues or understandings. Speak, don't retreat. It's all just words on the screen, and when we turn the computer off at night the words all just fade away only to be refreshed another day. I've sat on the Firebolt a couple of times now, but haven't taken one for a ride yet. Some things I like about it, some things I don't. And there's also other marques that I like, and others that I don't. And at the end of the day there's only one thing that really matters, I just simply like to ride. I think the phrase out of Wind in the Willows states it so well, modified a bit, "There's nothing quite like simply messing about with bikes". Happy riding indeed, that is the ultimate point. | ||
| Rempss |
OK I'll probably exceed that limit again!! "Jeff, that was a great post, you hit the nail on the head." Thanks, I thought so too.I don't pipe in too often, but when needed... "Here's a simple litmus test for you though, is Buell making or losing money for Harley-Davidson?" Probably too simple a test, and I (and you) don't know the answer "I'll bet they have done nothing but lose Harley money, if I'm right then they are NOT a successful company and are NOT doing it right. Profit is, after all, the lifeblood of any business." Buell is a fairly young company, not making many units compared to the other manufacturers you want them to copy... oops - compete with. This is another question I (and you)don't know the answer to. I guess juxtaposed to Harley anything except pre-2002 Enron is a money loser.I disagree; the lifeblood of any company is innovation, doing it better, doing it different or copying and doing it cheaper. Money/profit is the RESULT of doing these things right. As long as we are SPECULATING, where do you think Jimmy Hoffa is buried? "If they are making money I will be impressed, but still saddened to think how much better they COULD be doing." Find out the real information and facts before being un-impressed and try to change their business. Do you own Buell stock, or work for them, if not; again go find what YOU want if it is not here. "Let there be no misunderstanding, I want to see Buell grow and suceed, not remain a manufacturer relegated to forever churning out quirky niche bikes. I want a bike manufacturer that wins races for SOMEONE if I don't personally race and win. I WISH Buell would build motorcycles that didn't leak oil, blow speedos and didn't give up a 20% power advantage to bikes with half their displacement." If Buell is not headed where you think it should be, why care? Are you shopping at Kmart to make sure they succeed? When I have a tough time will you buy some commercial lighting? Maybe someone who knows more than me (and you) sees a future in "churning out quirky niche bikes"? If they can currently command a premium over the other guys, how are they not sucessful? Is a vast pile of money the only measure here? How about leading the pack where quirky becomes the norm? Look at the figures posted elsewhere here not long ago they made 1500 bikes by 1995, (or something similar, don't nail me on that one, I'm close without looking it up)is that not growth? Looks to me that the Firebolt is on the way to racing sucess, gotta start somewhere; right? Me too, but I knew it when I bought it. 20% More HP at 3 times the RPM, I guess again that's a personal call, again, do you already own a Buell? Why? It's nothing that you want. All they have to do is be number one in production, win all races, have the highest horsepower rating and kiss you goodnight; any other requirements to make them a success? "I want *Buell* to succeed, and I want to give them my money. They SAY they are in the market for customers like me (The sportbike market) but their product offerings make that a lie." This is getting old, they have no good qualities and lie to you? Why would you buy one? I don't want any liar to succeed, I try to rid my life of liars. Maybe; just maybe; Buell thinks a sportbike rider uses a bike the way they build it, after they R&D it? Maybe they have a definition of a sportbike that differs from yours? That definition is in their literature, all of it! It is not hidden. "Mmmmm, ham sandwich! Thanks, now I'm hungry!!!" Me too, I always break things down to the "food" level. "BTW Jeff, if over 30% (3 of 10) of your sales contacts resulted in you referring your potential customer to someone else...would you expand your product offering? :D" I'll have to let you know, I almost wet myself waiting to respond to this one. It won't happen I KNOW MY TARGET CUSTOMER!!!!!!!!!! Just like Buell!!! I don't need them to tell me, I invest time and the lifeblood of my business finding that out, when I call on a customer I already know their needs!!!! BTW where does 30% come from? Another pulled out of thin air? I thought so. "One last thing, I'm not saying Buell has it all wrong...I'm saying that they need to step back and take a hard look at how they are doing things and if this is REALLY the direction they want to pursue." My turn to speculate - I'd bet it's already been done Jeff - Hope the blue worked out. I would like to add some of the "smileys" to show I am not intending to offend, but hell I will be impressed if the blue works. None intended though. | ||
| Aaron |
Aw c'mon, Neil, lighten up. This ain't life or death, this is people who don't see things the same way. Don't run off. It didn't start out as an attack, it started out as an observation and a question and descalated from there, and it probably did descalate somewhat because of my preconceived notion that you attack Buell at every opportunity, I admit it. But let's not play he-said she-said. Agree to disagree? Truce? I fully realize that my opinion runs counter to some people whom I like and admire. For example, I'm a big fan of both Jose's. But everyone's entitled to their opinion, that's what this board is about, right? I see it as armchair quarterbacking. So what? It ain't life or death. I'll get roasted for this, I'm sure, but I kinda see the Firebolt like a Miata. Small, light, down on power, good handling. But, it has loads of appeal for it's sportiness and handling. No, it's no Corvette. but it sells well, it appeals to a certain portion of the sportscar market. I do believe there's room in the world for a bike like that, too. I'm glad Buell brought it to the party. I don't think they have to bring another Corvette to the party to play in the market (although that would be cool!). For whatever reason, they can't do that right now. I really don't think the reason is their own stupidity, or arrogance. I have a big issue with the fact that this Miata is priced like the Corvette, though. But whatever, they get paid to make those choices, if they overpriced it, they're the ones who will suffer. Now if they'd just go off and focus on my Viper! Big honkin' motor! Screw refinement! See ya, AW | ||
| S320002 |
The discussion that has gone on here for the past several days has caused me to do some critical thinking and I now believe there may be some logic to the HD/Buell boardroom decisions. This is pretty convoluted logic so bear with me. HD is coming up on their 100th Anniversary so they needed a flagship bike to give it some impact, thus the Vrod. Also there are a lot of HD riders out there who don't like getting beat by a Buell. So the Vrod had to be faster, at least in a straight line, than Buell's best. The next thing is to get the Vrod out a year ahead of the anniversary so they can work the bugs out before the (hoped for) big sales run. Because Buell is probably less than 5% of Harley's market share the board probably decided that, in the short run, these decisions would be a good thing for the Company as a whole. I also suspect that the XB9R may have been intentionally kept below a certain level of performance, to allow this to happen. Not a popular decision if you are a Buell rider but somewhat logical at the corporate level. This should also give a boost to Vrod sales since some HD guys will buy one if only to beat those damn Buells in a stoplight race. You can bet there are dealers out there using that as a selling point. Next step. Since the Vrod engine has cleared the R&D cycle and is now in production there should be more money for R&D on a new Buell engine. Once the smoke from the Anniversary fireworks has cleared, Buell vs. HD performance won't be such a big issue. Shortly after that comes BMC's 10th Anniversary where they can show off a new flagship bike and have their own day in the sun. Feel free to add to, or fling rocks at, my logic. Greg | ||
| Anonymous |
I surrender, This is the second time I have run into this verdammt 2 kilobyte message limit. I simply CANNOT respond to these complicated questions with the brevity required. Especially when you begin to discuss financial matters. Jeff go to harley-davidson.com and do your own research in their financials section. Let's see what kind of impression YOU come away with after looking at the data. Be sure to view the latest SEC filings. You all win, Buell is awesome and I suck for suggesting that 10,000 units sold a year WORLDWIDE is not the pinnacle of motorcycling sales/success. | ||
| Paulinoz |
Time frame for the gestation of a new bike is not over night or a year or two. If I remeber correctly on the XB9R tour last year I asked when the work started on the XB9R design and was told as the 99 model bikes started rolling of the line. That makes it Mid 98 to market in April 2002, 3 to 4 years from concept to production. To bring out a completely new bike in the next couple of years would have had to have been started in the middle of all the recalls and the intensive design stage of the XB9R. Do they have that many people or that sort of money in the Budget ??. I think that the XB9R is the revolution and over the next few years we will see it's evolution. Buell is a company that has had it's problems but it stands behind it's product In good times and bad, my M2 was manufactured nearly 4 years ago and the are still supplying an upgraded front muffler hangar free of charge. That gives me a lot of faith in Buell as a company. On the factory tour of the XB9R you got a sense of the pride the people involved in the XB9R had in what they where helping to create, these where not marketing or PR types but the nuts and bolts poeople. Only the market will tell if they got it right and it's what people will buy. If it doesn't sell I belive we will witness the end of The Buell Mo Co, but I belive they have got it right and we will see XB9R's and the evolution of this model take the company to new heights. If more power and race wins on Sunday type bikes are what the motor cycle buying public are after why are any of us hear. | ||
| S2no1 |
Wow, I think we just KO'd my computer screen. Still don't see many buyers. That's the real litmus test isn't it? Now, where is that frying pan? Arvel | ||
| S320002 |
Arvel, I put money down an my S3 without riding one and before they were released. I don't think most people would do that. Perhaps we should wait until the bikes hit the showrooms before we speculate on sales numbers. Just a thought. Greg | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Hey, ...... I still think we should beat up on Neil! He's pretty thinned skin too and nearly at the breaking point ...... Cheers, -JW:>) | ||
| Court |
If Buell's total revenue were an accounting error on HD's books, it would, under FASB and AICPA "materiality" guidlines, not warrant looking for. Not critical, but Buell is, still, a drop in the HD bucket. Lot's to say here and I certainly hope that knowing folks of differing opinions DON'T retreat. I learn a great deal from these varying perspectives. Anyone want to voluneteer to go ask Jeff Bezos that "but are they making a profit question"? Like planting an Oak seed and coming out, the next morning, to hang the tree swing. HD has the poop to make and stay in a good investment. Court | ||
| José_Quiñones |
HD Demographics 2001 HD/Buell Shipments from the 11/06/01 quaterly report
From the 2000 anual report
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