| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Budo: Maybe you are right, I dunno, but I'd think a shootout for the XB9R would also include a Duc 750SS or a Duc M900 or even a Duc Monster S4, maybe an SV650. The BIG advantage the XB9R has over the 600 cc repliracers is that while cruising down the road in 4th gear at 3500 RPM, the XB9R rider can simply whack the throttle and have VERY good results. The 600 cc rider needs to be in a lower gear at double the rpm to see similar results. What this means is that from a relaxed cruise mode, the 600 cc rider will need to downshift to get into a semblance of a powerband. How many 600 riders really push their engines hard enough to see peak power. I'd bet that the majority are short shifting at around 8 to 10 grand. It seems that the discussions along these themes always concentrate on either pure performance or the uniqueness/character factor. I offer that BOTH are significant factors affecting the market viability of the XB9R. Why has Duc sold sooo many Monsters? They sure as hell are not the fasted, best handling, or best at ANYTHING. They are however very competent bikes with heritage and character and enough exclusivity to make them very attractive at prices well above those of the 600 repliracers. Can you imagine, if the S1 had been rock solid reliable, no recalls required, how many more would have sold? I see the XB9R one-upping the Duc Monster market. The performance is VERY cutting edge, the uniqueness/character factor is there in spades, and I'm betting the reliability will prove itself VERY quickly. The fact that over a dozen Firebolts were thrashed around a racetrack track for two days solid without a single failure is a HUGE testament in that respect. I think it's also reasonable to root for the home team; "home" meaning America. Sure, we'd like to see 100 RWHP on a production Buell. Give Buell some time to do the job right. Blake PS: I REALLY liked the silver R1 I saw at the Dallas IMS. Very pretty bike. | ||
| S2no1 |
Blake, I'm starting to get real worried about you. Do you have a certificate from you doctor? Stil in therapy? Last count we only had 5 Bike on Order. This is a BUELL ENTHUSIAST WEB, OVER 10,000 HITS PER DAY AND ONLY 5 XB98R's ON ORDER. Whoa, that ain't exactly shipping 'em out the door. Production is slated at 7k units, only 6000 or so to go. Don't look good. Arvel | ||
| Josh |
Dark_Ninja, You realize that while yes you have more un-corrected power at 300' than to 5000', both bike will have to be at the same altitude to race, giving them the same advantage. My 95 Firebird does 13.79 @ 101 w/me behind the wheel at 330' in StLouis. My buddy in Denver does 14.00. So if he comes down here will I beat him? 130RWHP @ 1300RPM, hmm my last toy had 410HP at <2000RPM acording to Chiltons*. Josh *I think, anyone got a Chilton's around? Look up a 70-71 Olds Station Wagon w/ a 455. Ungodly torque and HP ratings. Yes I know the "standard" has changed, but it's fun to quote. | ||
| Aaron |
Look at what it takes to bring a product to market. You've got the engineering, the testing, the parts sourcing and supplier relationships and associated NRE's, the cost of the tooling, setting up production lines, the cost of the materials themselves as well as the direct labor, marketing costs, warranty costs, the list goes on an on. It's a damn expensive venture. When you decide to make a product, you've got to look at all that and the life cycle of the product and decide what you'd have to charge for that product and how many you'd have to ship to recoup your investment and make a little profit on top to make the whole venture worthwhile, no? My guess is that a business case could be made for the XB9, but not for a Superbike. I don't think it's any coincidence that the XB motor is so similar to the Evo, either. That's what they could afford to do. So when we sit here and second guess and say "but they could be so much more successful if they only did X" or the company is "a.f.u.", whether we say it constructively or not, we're operating without some key information that they have. It's damn easy to make statements like that, particularly when you have no data other than the market research you have from reading LABusas, it's a whole lot harder to make a business case for it. We like to think we're really smart but in reality we're speaking from a position of ignorance. Now, I may be all wet. It could be that they didn't bother to do the exercise. That they're *really* just interested in being a niche player, so that's all they focused on. But I doubt it. Let me toss this question out to you Neil. Why do you think they chose to go the way they did? Do you really think they just don't know any better? AW | ||
| Pammy |
I don't mean to step in the shit on this one...(oh but I will) Logicly speaking...why would any of us want these antiquated, paint shakin', part breakin',oil spewin',pieces-o-shit? And pay a primo price to have the honor of owning one? And put up with the bad treatment we endure to maintain the above mentioned P.O.S.? Well fella's, there is NO logic to it! It's purely an elitist(go figure)yet emotional decision to own one. We are a unique group of individuals who revel in our loyalty to a guy(and company) that makes our hearts race by offering to us(albeit at a price) a bike built on imagination and determination and not much else. I can say this(with impartiality) because I have seen the other end of the spectrum, inside and out. The technology is mind boggling in the asian bikes. Yet not one of them makes me smile like my big, bad, American, ground pounding, motor scooter! I have no reasoning for it. I am a logical person for the most part, yet logic leaves me when presented with this bike that I love. You can wish and want as much as you desire. You can like or dislike, agree or disagree or agree to disagree. As far as I am concerned, you can do it here, I don't mind. I can't speak for Blake but I believe he has created this forum for just the kind of debates and discussions that develop here. Man, I am sooo long-winded... Sorry, for the long post! | ||
| Josh |
Or you look at the current crop of 600s, see how many are still sitting on the floor and figure if they're not selling out, what's the chances that a duplicate will? Remember, Erik said he didn't build bikes for the racer-ricks that only know how to twist a throttle, he builds bikes for people that actually want to go fast... ;) Josh | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Hey Blake, have you ridden any modern 600 for any length of time??? You'd be surprised how much midrange they have nowadays (esp. compared to a few years back). From guestimates here on the XB, any modern 600 won't be that far behind in midrange, drop a gear and whack that throttle...big deal. ===================== Even though you won't answer my question Aaron...I'll take a stab: My best guess would be $$$. In that, HD probably didn't give them sufficient funds to develop a totally new motor (along w/ all the other R&D work that had to go into the frame, oil tank, brakes, etc...), so (as Dave suggessted the other day) they tried to use as much of the evo tooling as possible to save money. Great, dandy, that's pretty clever given the restraints. However, you have to balance the $ saved v. what's going to be lost with a continued weak position in the market place. I'll profer that those fancy brakes won't sell one bike, but the lack of hp definately will not sell quite a few! Different heads and/or valvetrain alone could have easily produced hp equal to any 600 supersport...would it have really been that expensive? And who fucking cares??? Geez, we're just BS'ing about what-ifs and other silly bench-racing-type, enthusast fun. We're hurting no one, doing no harm to BMC, and I certainly am casting no stones...yet, you sure seem to take an awful lot offense (at least towards me) of this. ==== well said Pammy. ==== Remember, Erik said he didn't build bikes for the racer-ricks that only know how to twist a throttle, he builds bikes for people that actually want to go fast... ;) Yes, and that also seems to contradict statements that he wants be a direct competitor to the Big4...which has a very large segment comprised by said ricky-racer crowd...unless he's going to start building dirt bikes, cruisers or atv's?!? Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Aaron |
great post, Pammy. | ||
| Aaron |
Neil, let go of it already. I think it's stupid to second guess them, you think it's constructive. We disagree. But we're men, not petty women. We're supposed to be able to scream our heads off at each other and then go play golf together. Well, if I liked golf. Stupid game. Let's go riding instead. Except we got 6 inches of !@#$ing snow last night. I guess I haven't caught the article in which Erik or anyone else at Buell expressed an intent to compete with the Big4. In fact, I've read several things that said the opposite. Where did he say this? | ||
| Aaron |
"Different heads and/or valvetrain alone could have easily produced hp equal to any 600 supersport...would it have really been that expensive?" Well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but my guess is yes, it would've added significant time and money to the development process as well as cost to the product. How many other components would have to be re-engineered to make that work, and work reliably? It's one thing to do that to your own bike, it's something else to take it to production. Look at how our motors are designed. They're TORQUERS. Long strokes, big heavy stuff. A horsepower motor is short stroke with lightweight everything. Now they took a step toward that with the XB. But to take real advantage of OHC and/or 4-valve heads, you really want to change a whole bunch of stuff, no? What I'd personally rather see them do is just make the motor bigger. That's the direct route to more power. I want a bike like JVV's! But I don't want to have to buy a bike and then go buy an aftermarket motor to get there. | ||
| S320002 |
The way I see it there are two primary reasons for the air cooled engine in the XB. 1. Erik likes air cooled engines. I have heard him say so on several occasions. 2. It takes lots time and LOTS of money to design a completely new engine. If you know the history of Buell you know that kind of money was not available until after Harley bought Erik out in 1998. And please don't bring up the VR engine. That engine failed to win a race for Harley. If Erik intends to compete you know he's going to do it with something inovative. Greg | ||
| Josh |
So why don't we take the HD crowd's route and build whatever we want? Maybe Buell could start selling their extra tube frames (now that they don't need them), doesn't S&S make a bolt-in 100in XL motor? hmmm Josh | ||
| Spike |
Pammy, I'm going to argue that one, I think there is logic in my Cyclone. For $5160 I got the torque of an open class bike, the wheelbase of a 600cc supersport, the ergos of a standard, the fuel range of a tourer, unlimited aftermarket, cheap insurance rates, and more character and attitude than anything else on two wheels. Did I mention this all comes in a ~435lb package with room for a passenger? Hell, it's even easy to work on. I'll admit, the paper rockerbox gaskets are about retarded and so is the old exhaust mounting system. Both of these are easy fixes, and if you spend a little time wrenching you end up with a kick-ass motosickle. I guess my idea of logic is a little different. Illogical to me is spending $15k on a 700lb bike that can't get out of it's own way just so you can have an image, or buying a bike so high-tech you can't even do the basic maintenance yourself. My Buell? Perfectly logical. Spike '99 Cyclone | ||
| Aaron |
Hey, now *there's* an idea! Maybe we can start a motorcycle company! Sign me up for one of those. | ||
| Josh |
I heard of a guy once that bought some excess parts off a major MC manufacturer after they discontinued a model. I think he started his own company too. Nah, if I went through that much trouble to make something no one else has I wouldn't sell it. Did I tell you about my dad's custom Springer HardTail? All catalog + used HD springer front & "crate" Evo motor. $13k, kick only, almost no maint. I think he's got 20,000miles on it in 2 years. 'course he rides it wearing a multicolor Bieffe fullface just to make sure no one waves at him ;) What was the topic again? Josh (but it would be kind of funny to start a company after buying Buell's leftovers) |
