| Author | Message | ||
     Dark_Ninja |
***or saying they don't know their own concept, or they don't know how to market, is silly, arrogant, and ignorant. *** Actually Aaron, I don't mean to be nasty but Buell *DOES NOT* know the motorcycle market very well...at least not in some aspects. Perhaps it comes from being joined up with Harley. Buell would be TREMENDOUSLY more succesfull if they could just deliver more Horsepower to the rear wheel...and isn't that the point of any business? To be successful? Even on Labusas where the Buells are made fun of and poked at, LOTS of "Joe-Rocket" guys say they would buy one...IF ONLY they made some reasonable horsepower at the rear wheel. They like the bike, they like the fact that it's American, they like the whole Buell concept...but they DESPISE the performance! A complete market segment that Buell has no action in. I wonder how many sales they are loosing? Isn't it nice to know that the new v-rod's will smoke your stock or even moderately modified Buell in a straight line? They are getting 107.5rwhp at 5000+ feet of elevation. You guys at lower altitudes are in even more trouble. Isn't this kind of silly? That a *cruiser* can outrun your "sport bike"? Now obviously in the twisties this changes, but it's still mostly ridiculous. I think Buell BETTER be doing something about the anemic power output of their bikes...and pretty quickly too. What are they going to do when Ducati releases that 15,000 rpm fire-breathing monster of a v-twin they are working on? I'm hardly a Buell basher, I'm an enthusiastic supporter...but I'm also a realist. How many people even here on Badweather think the 'Bolt is cool, but won't buy one because it doesn't fit anything they want to actually DO with it? I submit to you that Buell needs to release a motorcycle that is on par with it's competition. And since perception is reality, it's competition are the other "sport bikes" on the road today. "Street-fighter" "Sport-Fighter" are just marketing spew...on the street they are ALL "sport bikes" and that is how Buell, like it or not, is being judged. *I*, and many other current and potential customers I assure you, *want* bikes with higher performance numbers! If we didn't then how come so much of the traffic this BBS generates is about how to GET more power?  If Buell won't deliver it...then customers will naturally migrate to those companies who will. Buell will die a slow horrible death or be forever relegated to putting out goofy "niche" bikes, like the ural, that very few people want to own. Know your market, the "sport bike" market is full of PERFORMANCE freaks. Arrrgh, I gotta get off this soabox...I'm using up all the air! Sorry for the rant fellas, it just bugs me to see the success that Buell COULD have...if only it could/would deliver what the sport bike market wants.  | ||
| Aaron |
Uhh, you must have me confused with someone else. Didn't I just say I want a 130hp bike? The XB is not my cup of tea, and the power level is one of the reasons. I suspect you're right, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Buell can make much more money if they kick the performance level up a bit. I'm just reluctant to tell them that the way they do things is afu. They know what they can and can't accomplish with what they've got. What they make is their call. Just like it's my call to buy it or not buy it. I'll refrain from speaking for other buyers, too. Sounds to me like they've got people standing in line to buy the bike. Yeah, you and I want more power. But who are we to say they didn't do it properly? Isn't that a bit self-centered? No, what I object to is standing on a soap-box and proclaiming "you're all screwed up! you should do it this way instead! I know it for a fact! I read it on the internet!". It's just amazing to me how many people think they know more about making motorcycles than the people doing it. Reminds me a lot of "high maintenance employees". You know the types, they second guess everything done at every level of management, just certain that they could do it better, but they're operating with a fraction of the information that the decision makers have. In the final analysis, they just like to complain, and they grandstand their ignorance in the process. Nah, life's too short to get all hung up on that stuff. You don't like it, walk. You don't like the bikes that company X makes, go buy company Y's bikes. Why get spun up over it? BTW, you need to learn the concept of SAE correction. You get much the same dyno readings at 5000' as you do at sea level. Often better. | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
I'm not going to argue SAE correction, all I will say about it is that M/C's have more power at 300' in Lincoln Nebraska than they do at 5000+ in Denver Colarado. It's noticeable to the pilot and measurable with a stopwatch. Even on Honda Blackbirds with a properly sorted Fuel Injection system. I deleted the rest of my massive missive I typed out as a reply. I don't want to argue and create hard feelings where none need to be. We're both Buell guys, we love some things about them and hate others. A lot of things are a.f.u. at Buell though, and refusing to talk about it doesn't change the reality. Peace | ||
| Jmartz |
Aaron: A 4 x 3.5 motor with a valve train that will return the valves at near 9000 rpm (like NASCAR) and individual port heads with a fully programmable spark an fuel curves and 6 speeds. That should satisfy both if us and a few others. Jose | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
But to sit here and throw rocks at the company, Throw rocks??? How? I have not personally insulted (or assulted) anyone, nor the company as a whole. ...and say things like it's not the "proper" way to do it, Well, as I've said more time than I care to count, *IN MY OPINION*. That is neither arrogant, insulting, or throwing rocks. It *IS* providing feedback from a segment of the motorcycle market that I don't think BMC understands! ..."shit or get off the pot", IMO! Many higher ups at BMC have made comments about their goals (i.e., to be a competitor to the Big 4, both in sales & the track)...IMO I don't see them moving in that direction. Again, not a stone in that thought. ...or saying they don't know their own concept, Where did I ever say that??? I *did* say that you will probably point out that I have no clue after I profered my view/definition of the concept behind Buells. You are NOT reading what I'm saying, and you ARE reading what you want into what I'm saying. ... or they don't know how to market Wrong. I said they don't know how to market to the sportbike crowd (which is obviously the market they're trying to go after). See Dark_Ninja comments above for yet another view towards this. , is silly, arrogant, and ignorant. Silly...maybe, that's your opinion Arrogant...I don't think so, I've been trying to convey the thoughts/desires of another segment of the market that I don't think they really understand. Ignorant...I don't think so. I've backed up everything I've said, and will continue to do so. So where's the 'stones', where's the malice, where's the hate that you seem to see in everything I say??? Interesting...Dark_Ninja just profers a very similar viewpoint, neither do you attack him, you throw a slight barb at me. I will kindly walk away from the lock-step of the Badwebber army... Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Aaron |
Uncorrected power is very different, no argument. But you quoted a dyno figure, which is generally a corrected number. In other words, the dyno (or the dyno operator) measures environmental conditions and applies a correction factor to the result, so that the result *looks* like it was taken at sea level. One of the things that I've noticed is that the SAE formula doesn't do a good job with humidity. On humid days, I get a lower result, even when tuned properly for that day. It seems to do a good job with temperature and barometric pressure, though. Just not humidity. And, since higher elevations often have lower humidity, my suspicion is that we actually get a little better dyno numbers up here, on average. Anyway, no hard feelings at all. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. I just reject these arguments that we know so much more about what they should and shouldn't be doing than they do. I think it's arrogant and ignorant. We have a tiny portion of the information they do. AW | ||
| Aaron |
Well, Neil, I think you should go back and review your posts. You rarely represent those things as opinion. And yes, making statements like that without all the information is ignorant, that's the definition of the word. | ||
| Aaron |
Jose, I agree, except I wouldn't attach a 9000rpm figure to it. If they can get me my 130hp at 7000rpm, I'll take it! | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
If I could get 130rwhp at *1500* rpm I'd take it! | ||
| Detroit |
"Reminds me a lot of "high maintenance employees". You know the types, they second guess everything done at every level of management, just certain that they could do it better, but they're operating with a fraction of the information that the decision makers have. In the final analysis, they just like to complain, and they grandstand their ignorance in the process." People second guess because they care. If all I cared about was the fastest bike I would buy an R1 or some other Japanese rocket and I would not be writing on this page or looking at it. Problem is WE want an American company to build it. Polaris does not seem interested right now in Sportbikes (although they do build DOHC 4 valve singles for there atv's) niether does Indian. So Buell is our only hope (no star wars reference intended). | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Boy the Buell lurker must be loving this..... Neil, This sounds like Martha Stewart or something but "It's not what you say but how you say it" I have that problem all the time! Don't go away Neil! | ||
| Aaron |
Well, that's the part I don't understand and nobody's explained to me. Why does it have to say "Buell" on the tank? Man, a person could end up waiting a long time to get what you want if you're married to a certain brand. My guess is they have neither the resources nor the cost structure to compete head to head in that market. But it's only a guess, I don't have the information. Maybe they'll surprise me, that'd be cool! | ||
| Budo |
We have all seen the reviews of the Firebolt, and they are positive in some areas (handling). Now the bike mags will probably do a group shoot-out, probably with 600s. The Firebolt will probably come in last because every 600 out ther puts about 100hp to the ground, the Firebolt considerbly less than that. Do you think guys reading that review will rush out to buy a Firebolt, for $10k, when a CBR600 retails for $8,200.00.? I know the Bolt handles great. But most of the guys I have seen don't ride well enough to exploit that. Especially the younger guys the Bolt is supposed to sell to. These guys are not going to take the MSF class or do a track day. What they do tho is whack the throttle open for the acceleration and top end rush. Just what the Bolt does not have. I have ridden with these guys and they are not going to tolerate being left behind and that is what is going to happen because the Bolt is not going to keep up the the 600s, 750s, or for sure the 1000cc class bikes in a straight line for any distance. I have seen that first hand. Sure you can put hi-perf parts in the Bolt to get it to 100hp, are you really going to sink another $2-4k into a bike you paid $10k for just to get the hp up to that of a CBR600? I know I don't need to point out Buells reliability record and the various new and trick things on the Bolt. I have a 98 S1W with 26k miles on it. I like the bike alot in spite of the problems I have had with it, and of course my dealer is a joke. I could have had a Ducati M900 for the same money. Considering what I have had to put into my bike I could have had a Ducati S4. Don't even mention the maintenance on the Duc because of the money I have had to spend on my Buell I would have saved two thousand dollars just owning the Duc. But that is neither here nor there. The Firebolt is not the bike I wanted, thats fine. The factory can build what it wants, and you should spend your money on what ever tickles your fancy. But I am not going to wait for Buell to build the bike I want. I'm done waiting and hoping. Sorry for the long post. | ||
| Blake |
OMG!  Ladies and Gentlemen, and the rest of y'all too It appears Neil and Aaron have ripped their thongs off exposing their true feelings for each other! It appears they both have good points.  | ||
| Aaron |
Blake, you're losing it. Fantasizing way too much over this! Budo, I suspect you're right. We'll see. |
