| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Neil: Keep it coming. I enjoy considering all points of view. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake, Could an engine like you describe be EPA legal? That's where Buell has always had a problem. The reason for our funky airboxes and mufflers are to create power but still fall within the EPA sound tests. Air cooled engines do well in the Emmisions testing, however. The combination of intake, exhaust, and ENGINE NOISE can't go past 80db. What's the quickest way to quiet down a noisy engine? Put a water jacket around it! That lets you get away with more intake and exhaust noise, thus making more power. But air cooled bikes will be around for a while, however. But Buell still needs to make a "race rep", purely for marketing reasons. Works for Ducati and Aprilia, eh? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Worth reading again.... | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Aw, come on Blake, a large displacement 2v engine is not inherently more reliable than a high reving anything. Personally, I see more talk about har[d]ley engines breaking than any sportbike powerplant...but that's neither here nor there. But, in a round about way, you've still hit on my bitch....they could of kept the lovely torque, and still produced reliable high hp on the XB design (and if this will be a later model to follow, I still say shame on them...and a bad marketing move). 4 or 5valve heads, especially w/ ohc would not of done a thing to hurt reliability, would increase hp, not hurt torque (significantly)...god forbid we get a little crazy and employ some cutting edge technology, like variable valve timing and then we get the best of all worlds!!! Tangent...why is it whenever I start questioning engines, calling for more hp, every counter-argument immediately uses I4's as the comparison/counter??? I like twins, want them to stay twin, but it's a cop-out to stay pushrod, 2v w/ medicore hp in this day in age if your trying to market a sportbike. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Sarodude |
Neil- Believe it or not, I'm actually with ya... This isn't lodged necessarily as a Firebolt complaint as much as a general 'they need to get their heads out of their Buellholes' suggestion: I'd like to see 'em START simply with a 2v OHC (ghasp) head. I think you could still retain a lot of the character of the current motors while extending their abilities. Whether or not 4 valves would be doable (reliability / cooling, packaging, yada, yada) on an AC head I don't know - but that's where I personally wish they'd start. Anyway, we can keyboard engineer all we'd like. Unless we can all bust our little pink piggybanks and get someone on the INSIDE on OUR payroll, we'l just have to stay with a 'wait and see' attitude... -Saro | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Yeah, I was really surprised w/ the pushrods still being used...especially after all the rumors that the blast design was purposfully done to accomodate OHC's. Go figure. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| S320002 |
Quote: "...for someone who "thinks out of the box" on frames, he sure is square in the middle of the box on engine design...IMNSHO." I would say that Erik is way outside the box. How many air cooled, pushrod, V twins making 101 hp are there? Water cooled, multivalve, high reving, OHC. THAT is the middle of the box. A few more questions for the "It won't sell unless its a racer" types. 1. How long do you suppose it would take to develope this race engine you think Buell needs? 2. What do you think the development costs would be? 3. Do you think Buell could justify the kind of budget neccessay to compete in superbike racing? 4. How many many of you are silly enough to believe that World class superbikes use more than a small handfull of stock parts? Greg | ||
| garyhoov |
While anything can potentially be improved, I'd like to ask a simple question. Is this or is this not the best American sportbike ever made? You have to walk before you can run. | ||
| Davegess |
SPORTBIEKS IN BUELL PARKING LOT In the HD parking lot pretty much no sport bikes, in fact pretty much only Harleys which is not too surprising when you get a 20% discount, but at Buell they are in the majority. Several of the engineering staff are current or former roadracers. Many Buell employees have never owned a Buell but are lining up for the XB. I can't wait to get mine, EVERYONE I talk too says the thing is nuts. This includes folks who have ridden pretty much every bike on the market. And folks who love big horsepower. Dave | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Uh, there have been 100+hp sportster and big twins around for 30+ years...nothing new there. Superbike? Been talking supersport, much tigher rules, very close to the off-the-shelf product (compared to a superbike). I think the point being made by use racer-type-wannabes (as your implying) is that the develpment cost that went into the XB engine, could have paid for a "better" design...in our not so humble opinions. Further, *if* buell does have that 130hp engine that will be coming out later, as is oft rumored, I say shame on them for not releasing that first (and a poor marketing move)! Sportbikes are a win on Sun, sell on Mon market...if buell is going to be a credible sportbike, you gotta race! HD has the money. They don't think it's necessary for reasons that aren't worth speculating about. I'm saying, they need to shit or get off the pot! If your going to play at being a sportbike, then do it 110%. If not, then don't call yourself one (when was the last time anyone called a Moto Guzzi a sportbike????). Best American sportbike, sure...but not exactly a whole bunch of competition. Sorta like winning the beauty contest when your the only participant. No personal slings here, but here's my speculation.... Buell and the vast majority of it's customers are current or former H-D owners. Sure, compared to a har[d]ley, a buell is a powerful, well handling machine. For those like me, who are squids first (then I had a har[d]ley and promptly sold it), a buell lacks compared to any other sportbike. If your going to talk the talk...you damn well better walk the walk! With that said, these same individuals who are the majority will rationalize (for lack of a better term)...you have to walk before you can run, for example...walk/run where, they aren't doing anything competative?? The whole point of my many diatribes is trying to point out how a large share of the market feels about motorcycles (in general) in hopes that the BMC folks will 'get it'....or get out. Combine all the above w/ HD's unquestionned marketing success over the past 10 years and you've got mediocre product development, arrogant decision making, etc...study IBM corporate strategy from the 80's and you'll see where I'm coming from. Again, none of the above is directed at anyone person, just generalized observations...please don't get your panties in a wad. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
but at Buell they are in the majority "They" = what? Buells or foreign sportbikes? Well, if I got 20% off an XB, it'd look a hell of a lot better too...that's *RIGHT* where I said they should have priced that thing to begin w/ $8k. For $10k, I'll buy something else. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Buelliedan |
Neil, What STOCK sportster or big twin came with a +100hp engine?? Yes, there have been many modified by their owners to get +100hp but I believe Buells were the first ever to have it come stock off the showroom floor. | ||
| Davegess |
Foreign sportbikes | ||
| Davegess |
One of the major cost constraints in designing a new Buell engine was the cost of production tooling, partially tooling to make castings etc. but also the tooling to machine parts and assemble motors. Every dollar not spent on this stuff could be spent on the rest of th ebike. By leaving in place most of the sportster tooling a very large number of dollars was saved. Has to be in the millions. Dave | ||
| Aaron |
Neil, with so much disdain for the concept behind Buells, why do you own one? I know a number of people who think it's a crummy way to build a sportbike, and I know a number of people who think it's a terrific way to build a sportbike. But generally, the folks who think it's a crummy way don't own one, and the folks who think it's a terrific way do own one (or more). You're the exception. Why? |
