| Author | Message | ||
     Sarodude |
Personal feelings regarding the air vs water cooling debate and how it may or may not relate to the Firebolt... Please let's just leave it alone! When you go RIDE on the street or your favorite road, what are you doing? Are you RACING or are you out to ENJOY yourself? If (you think) you're racing, buy another bike - one that offers better HP potential. If you're trying to enjoy yourself, buy the bike that makes you happy. The XB doesn't really have a direct competitor. It is its own bike. Imagine a Lotus or Caterham Super 7... Sure you could buy a more poweful car with better aero. That's not what the 7 is about, though. Probably not what the Firebolt is about, either. If (you think) you like the XB9R, you need to accept what it's about. I have. I LOVE it. Though it's more bike than I can make use of, it's on the short list of seriously cool, unique, and desireable bikes without resorting to dyno numbers to generate coolness. Just a silly squid's opinion... -Saro | ||
| S320002 |
Now there's a guy who gets it. Saro, you said that a hell of a lot better than I did. Thanks. Greg | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
My S1 is not the fastest bike around or the quickest. BUT Being the only one on the Island of Newfoundland I certainly get the most looks and questions when I pull up to a group of other bikers or gas station. I would love the Firebolt but would not trade the S1 for anything at this point. If you wanna race then go buy a Busa but I just love the looks and handling of the S1. These bikes are unique and different to themselves and should not be compared to the crotch rockets in the market place. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
So more hp=racing, huh? The ability to enjoy oneself on a bike is limited by hp? Dyno #'s are just one part of an equation...and all other things being relatively equal, I'll take more hp. Do y'all also think 500hp street cars are unnecessary? Yeah, Miata's can be fun on a track, but I'll guarantee you that you'd rather spend the same $$$ for something equal w/ more hp...care to take the pepsi challenge? What, no-one here does track days? "Racing" and enjoyment are not mutually exclusive ...the last time I checked. Hell, the most fun I've ever had has been on the track. Go to a track (in a car or on a bike) and I'll guarantee you we'll quickly seperate the cruisers from competitors. ================ tangent mode on You wanna talk fun??? Come out of turn 9 at Roebling Road Raceway @ 110mph, go to pass the guy in front of you only to see a Porsche 930 t-boning the concrete wall, and be sitting sideways in front of you....and thank God when it rolls forward enough for you to squeeze between it and the wall while vainly attempting to stop in time!!! ...or be all over the backend of the Carrera 4 (in my wifes Mustang GT) in front of you and have his instructor tell him to let you pass as your quicker!! (he had me on the straights - 400+hp vs. 260hp, but was SLOW in the corners) He later spun twice the next day...instructor later told me, whenever I caught him, he'd get so pissy cause he felt his expensive car should kick our POS mustang's ass...that he'd start trying to drive WAY over his head...I woulda loved to have another 100rwhp for that front straight. Just did this last weekend at a Porsche Club of American "Drivers Ed" event (the closest thing to racing w/ full coverage insurance)...already signed up for the next event! ================ tangent mode off And you sure as hell aint gonna win any races on a Busa...those things are a bus...oh, wait, you can't mean in a straight line?!? Think you need reevaluate your tag line sarodude...that sure aint a very squidly attitude. ...and exactly why does it not have any competition??? There are plenty of supersport bikes that are it's direct competition (even BMC says it's to go up against the 600cc supersport crowd)! Neil Garretson X0.5 ...ah the rationalization of some folks. | ||
| S320002 |
"After draining the cooling system, there's no difference." Let me think about that. Radiator, water pump, fan motor, thermostat, hoses, temp sensor, water jacket, temp gauge, leaky hoses, leaky radiator, bad fan motors, bad thermostats, bad temp sensors, water in the oil, anti freeze in the winter (you do want to ride on those warm winter days right?), antifreeze on the garage floor, antifreeze on the tire, freeze plugs, cracked block, a pound here, two pounds there, eight pounds for a gallon of water. Hmmm??? Wonder what parts and labor costs will be for those "no differences". Aside from those, a lot of other things, there isn't much difference. I worked on water cooled engines for a few years, they even paid me for it. There are advantages to water cooled engines but there are also some disadvantages. Greg | ||
| S320002 |
Neil, I've ridden Buells on quite a few race tracks. Lots of fun. Kinda like your story about the Mustang. Didn't have the most HP but passed bikes with more. By the way. What kind of engines did those high HP Porches have in them? Greg | ||
| Sarodude |
Track Days != Racing I don't know bikes. I DO know vehicular enjoyment and racing - be it wheel to wheel or time trials. I got out of racing (hopefully temporarily) partly because the days of turture preparing for 30 minutes of pleasure was wearing thin on my nerves and bank account. I don't know if I had ANY FUN or ENJOYMENT at the last couple of events. For track days, I imagine a Firebolt would be mighty fine. Track days have no purpose other than FUN. Racing, although fun for most, is at its root about REGULATED COMPETITION. I personally don't much believe in equivalency formulae. The XB likely will not really be competing against the 600cc bikes. Wanna know why? Go ask the 600cc riders and racers. Does the XB not have enough power to be fun on a track? I'd find that difficult to believe. In my book, if you want FUN and you think you don't have enough horsies, get less sticky rubber. It creates the impression of greater HP by increasing your braking zones, making throttle management more critical, etc. What? You'll get passed by someone? Who cares! This was supposed to be FUN - not a competition. Track Day - not Race Day. FUN is not about one bike's performance RELATIVE TO ANOTHER BIKE. That's my whole point. Fun is about ONE rider & ONE bike. Got 15 bikes? Forget about the other 14 when you're riding #15. The minute you start comparing, you're racing / competing. Whether you compete at the track, strip, on this BBS, on the dyno, or in the magazines, you're competing. It isn't that you don't need horsies. It's not that you can't enjoy 10 more. It's that the Firebolt is what it is. Wanna stuff that water cooled VRod motor in there? Man, it sure won't be a Firebolt anymore. Be it via OHC, 4 / 5 / ? valves, improved cooling, whatever - more power is rarely bad (no comments from tire engineers, please). However, it is likely that any means Erik Buell had to produce a more powerful XB would take away from what he was trying to do. Just run the scenarios while keeping in mind that they had enough trouble cramming everything the bike needed in the existing package. Does Buell need a real import killer? From the market's perspective, he probably does. Even if he had it, the import buyers wouldn't pay so much for it. They're already moaning about $10K for Now, go ride the XB and tell me it ain't ENJOYable... -Saro | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I don't know bikes. I DO know vehicular enjoyment and racing - be it wheel to wheel or time trials. I got out of racing (hopefully temporarily) partly because the days of turture preparing for 30 minutes of pleasure was wearing thin on my nerves and bank account. I don't know if I had ANY FUN or ENJOYMENT at the last couple of events. Sounds like you got out at the right time. Racing is too expensive to do if your not having fun. For track days, I imagine a Firebolt would be mighty fine. Track days have no purpose other than FUN. Racing, although fun for most, is at its root about REGULATED COMPETITION. I personally don't much believe in equivalency formulae. The XB likely will not really be competing against the 600cc bikes. Wanna know why? Go ask the 600cc riders and racers. No, go ask the AMA. If E.B. had had his way, it would be in 600cc supersport (where it had a chance to be competative)...alas, in AMA's infinate wisdom, it's in 750cc supersport and will get creamed. ...I'll end here, this will shortly turn into a pissing match as, I think, your just rationalizing...or we're just talking past each other. You have yet to explain the racing v. enjoyable. Really not trying to be contrary, just don't understand the mentality...you seem to clearly distinguish between 2 different 'worlds' and the XB, by your view, seems to only exist in the street world. The track/racing world is just as valid, and IMO, more valid for comparison...there's more to getting around a track fast than high hp, but track (and dyno) numbers are a VERY VALID quantifyer of a vehicle. Neil Garretson X0.5 This particular Carrera 4 was a grey market turbo 6 cyl. w/ ~400hp...beautiful car...but WAY too much money, even if I could afford it! | ||
| Anonymous |
Air cooled? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Pic's from RRW of the Pro Thunder Firebolt, the Lightning Series version and another one of me!     | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Agreed. For Buell to expand it's market, they need a modern race bike, and it's corresponding street version. The fact is, the current BUELL racing bikes do not get much respect, because they are not competitive unless you race them all by themselves or you create a class with the rules so tilted in your favor that it's not funny! Buell is considering pulling out of the Pro Thunder series this year. There will be no Pro Thunder races at the Superbike double rounds, so there will only be five Pro Thunder rounds at AMA events this year, and they want more exposure than that. Well, why not have exposure at every AMA race by designing and building a proper SUPERBIKE? Just imagine, a real 1000 cc Vtwin AMERICAN SUPERBIKE, WINNING races every Sunday on Speed Channel. The squids would pay $20K for it, easy! | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Oh, I've imagined it...talked about it...written email begging BMC for it...mention it everytime I've spoken to someone at BMC...on and on. Alas, we got the XB. I really don't see any potential for [in the short term] BMC coming out with another new bike that would be competative in superbike (if the rumors are correct how much development $$$ went into the XB). I just don't think BMC, or mother HD, want to attack that market. Hell, look at the comments made by HD when they killed the VR program...in short, they didn't see the justification for spending the BIG $$$$ it takes to run a successful superbike campaign. Your talking BIG $$$ here, constant evolution of the product, little to no profitability (from that particular product, but the collateral sales should offset that), blah, blah, blah. H-D doesn't have a competative spirit. Without your leaders pushing you to go out and win, you won't! Think I'll save my pennies for a Tornado. At least they've got gumption to try, killer styling, and finally gonna bring 'em to market. Hell, even the Hinkley boys had the gumption to enter the toughest racing market w/ the TT600 - even if they haven't done very well, it takes balls. As long as the cruiser's dominate the committee meetings and boardrooms, you won't see it happen. I'm still waiting for one of our esteemed 'insiders' to let me know how many squids work @ HD and/or BMC? How many sportbikes are in those parking lots???? How many employees have a foreign made sportbike as their only bike???? I bet it's few to none. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Sarodude |
Neil- You've piqued my curiousity. Just how much did BMC spend developing the Firebolt? Inquiring minds... ...track (and dyno) numbers are a VERY VALID quantifyer of a vehicle. Indeed they are. Actually, you said the magic word - QUANTIFYER. I don't think one needs a quantitatively supreme vehicle to be fun to ride. However, if you're basing a purchase based on quantities, price and horsepower are fantastically important. Hell, you can't test-ride most bikes, sometime's they're all you've got! What I'm talking about is visceral QUALIFYER types of stuff. Someone find me a Fun-O-Meter. We might both be made happy! Based on what EB says in the product literature, he was trying to build the ultimate back road bike. No real mention (or selective memory, perhaps!) of killing import bikes at the races. Not trying to enter the pissing contest - or perhaps just doing a bad job of leaving one I started! It wasn't my intent. Apologies if I offended... I just like discussions. Hell, if you SAW me talk, you'd think I was Itallian... -Saro | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I have no idea of any $$$ figure (though I'd love to know). There was lots of mention from some of the 'insiders' that the development costs were significant - and I'd believe that, any new engine development program is expensive. Couple that with the fact that its been oft said that if the XB doesn't turn it around for BMC, that might be the end. No offense taken...I think we both have selective reading. There was lots of talk from EB when the XB was first announced that (a) he wanted it to compete against 600cc supersport bikes (which is the TOUGHEST market segment in sportbikes); and (b) that he wanted to provide a place for these bikes to compete - hence his petition to AMA to get the XB legal for 600cc. AMA, like many other decisions of lately, made a poor one and made the XB legal for 750cc supersport (where it doesn't have a snowballs chance unless they really relaxed the rules...I haven't read all the changes yet)...and if they did, that bike won't have a thing to do w/ the production ones. EB used to race, and supossedly still has the racing passion. I think the XB would of been ok in 600, but 750 is dominated by gixxer 750's (with significantly more hp, and they are not limited by cornering ability) so the XB really has no trump here and is WAY down on power (even at the rumored 125'ish race-trim hp). You 'see' the backroad, canyon carver potential...I see a wasted effort to *maybe* go racing...2 sides of the same coin. Ok, analogy time....buells are to ducati's as lamborgini's are to ferrari's. Why? Lamborgini really doesn't race, therefore they don't have the 'credability' that Ferrari does. Same w/ Buell and Ducati. Even if they didn't win much, if Buell raced (equally w/ other makes, not in BS Pro Thunder type stuff) and were at least competative...they'd have credability. As it stands, they're fun, different, whathaveyou but not a *real* sportbike. Wierd hair-splitting I'm sure, but the truth of the market none the less. And on a personal note/side...I *really* wanted the XB to be a supersport killer as I really love that class of bike (yeah, litre bikes are fun, but not all that either). Any off the shelf 600 supersport is right at 100rwhp, around 108-110 w/ pipe and jet work. I'll bet it'll take much more than that to get the same hp from a XB? If not, shame on Buell for not selling it that way. If they really wanted to be compeative, why not *make* it competative? How hard would 4 or 5valve heads have been? Or better yet, 4 or 5 valve heads w/ ohc? Could easily have spun over 8,500 then, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you'd get hp right up there, or more, than 600's WITH that lovely torque down low! But for whatever reasons, they copped out, went safe, standard 2v har[d]ley...for someone who "thinks out of the box" on frames, he sure is square in the middle of the box on engine design...IMNSHO. Neil Garretson - I'll 'discuss' till Blake kicks me outta here...which might not be too much longer  X0.5 | ||
| Blake |
Like I've heard some guy calling himself "Erik Buell" say. The simplest way to achieve a more powerful IC engine is by increasing displacement. I would MUCH rather have an air cooled 1500cc V2 putting out a reliable 135BHP at 6500 rpm than a liquid cooled 750cc IL4 putting out 140 HP at 11000 rpm. Which engine is more suited to a "Sport Bike"? Personally I'd like to have a lot more than 2.6" of stroke when I'm out riding the curves in the real world. Got torque? |
