| Author | Message | ||
     Robhughes |
Sorry about this taking so long to get this done but we've been real busy around the shop and it took a while to get a bike in to install a pipe on. The Test: Stock XB12 Vs Xb12 with Tiforce Exhaust, K&N air filter and TFI. [img]http://img234.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img234&image=buellxb12tiforcedyno3af.jpg[/img] My dyno techs were less than impressed with the TFI and said over all it's limited adjustability compared to a Powercommander held back the ability to make all of the power the pipe is able to across the entire range. They were only able to get proper tuning in short sections across the powerband, if they got good top end it killed the low end if they got the low end it killed the top...the dyno you see here has been tuned to give the most power over the widest range, which happen s to be right in the mid range. We're pretty confident that there is a bunch more power to be had in the "holes" once we're able to rebuild the entire map at the required intervals to get it right. Oh yea the max torque didn't show up on my sheet for some reason and I tried to add it back in, but it's not too clear 75.39 stock max 78.13 modded max. (Message edited by RobHughes on March 03, 2005) | ||
| Robhughes |
Rob  (Message edited by RobHughes on March 03, 2005) | ||
| Barkandbite |
So if I'm reading that right, you tuned approx. a +12 Torque and a +11 HP gain in the midrange over the stock config? That must be fun to ride... What do you think it's going to take to smooth that torque curve out in the 3.7K-5.5K range... it looks like if one were riding it she'd pull hard and then let down right when the going got good? If you shifted the tuning up the powerband a little did you see more of a linear torque progression? That dip @ 5K is annoying  Some nice #'s in terms of overall gain, however. I wonder how the 9 will respond... | ||
| M1combat |
That looks pretty much exactly like what I expect my Force pipe to look like. I'm thinking the curve on my bike with the way I have it tuned will be smoother and higher from 3K-6K, but with a bit of a loss compared to the Ti-Force below that. I still think I can tune that out. That's also with the baffle in place, so there's more in it for a race track... removing the baffle kind of kills the low end, but only because it's too fat. I'm working on something for that right now... What settings did you end up with on the TFI? | ||
| M1combat |
In any case, I'm thinking you may need to lower the price by about 60%. Maybe not though... Maybe get a Power Commander and see what that does? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
The TFI is MORE adjustable for the XB's then the Power Commanders. Unless Dynojet makes a new PCIII for the XB's your using one that is limited to changes above 3500RPM. The PCIII is unable to affect the blackbox area of the ECM operation. Oh and Rob, thanks for taking the time to put together a Dyno run. (Message edited by wyckedflesh on March 03, 2005) | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Love your work Dave, you've done something no one else would, thanks. I can't say I'm impressed with the TiForce now, though... I mean the TFi and K&N would have added a bit to the stock bike, so it's not like all the improvement was in the exhaust... And the 12 and 11 numbers B&B was saying are right where the stock bike is neutered the most, even the pro series ECM will eliminated that hole, the TFi should remove it too... It's proly good for 4-5 ft/lbs right there on it's own. Not only that, but it is my experience that out of the entire Pro Series kit, the single part responsible for the most gain is the air cleaner... Sorry Rob, I just can't say I'm impressed... I would like to see a series of charts of different TFi settings, though, that might go towards showing it's strong points... Sorry to sound like a little bitch... But here is two runs comparing the same set-up, one with stock ECM, the other with Pro series ECM, neither with TFi.   Now, bear in mind, the muffler being used in both runs was totally unacceptable and was quickly thrown in the bin, but at least these two different shaped curves show how much can be gained in the middle with a better fuel map, even though the Pro Series is not adjustable. Now that I've rained on EVERYONES parade, I'm gonna go cook dinner!! | ||
| Blake |
Similarities?...  XB9S with D&D Muffler We need to run a new test with the swiss cheesed 12 version airbox. | ||
| Noface |
Wycked, The PCIII for the X1's that are used on the XB's can most certainly be used to manipulate VE tables below 3500 rpm. That's what the Hi-Perf O2 sensor is used for. If you run the stock O2, it cannot be adjusted, but if you use the Hi-Perf sensor, it most certainly can. | ||
| Noface |
Trench, we haven't seen DaveS dyno results yet. Rob Hughes posted these. | ||
| Ingemar |
Yeah, that was gonna be my question, DaveS didn't do this one, did he? | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Oops, sorry guys... It will be interesting to see Daves results, then... My point still remains, though, add a bit of fuel and the midrange dip dissapears altogether, even with a •••• muffler... I might see if I can dig out the curves again, I am sure I have one that compared the difference between the air box and air box eliminator, but suffice it to say, it's better everywhere. | ||
| Daves |
No, I haven't gotten them done yet. Sorry to Rob and everyone else that this is taking soooo long. If I could stop selling bikes for a few days I could get it done. | ||
| Robhughes |
With the AF.  | ||
| M1combat |
And what settings did you end up with on the TFI? | ||
| Robhughes |
To be honest M1 I'll have to check with my dyno guy to see.... | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Noface thats interesting, the 2 shops here that install and tune PCIII's for XB's locally both stated that the PCIII wouldn't affect the kind of change that was needed below 3500rpm. Their findings showed it would work, if you spent most of your time from 3500 on up. | ||
| M1combat |
No problem Ron... I am curious though. Thanks in advance  . | ||
| Noface |
Wycked, I've been messing with my 9R w/new Gen II Force pipe lately. I can tell a noticeable difference when i change numbers in VE cells under 3500 rpm. It makes a world of difference. For instance, whack the throttle WFO at 2k in first, it would stutter, buck and kick like a pissed off mule. I richened it up and nothing changed. Leaned it out, and it smoothed out considerably (I still have some more work tuning it). I was really surprised that it wanted less fuel, but it did. FWIW, i've given up trying to tune it w/Race ECM and PCIII. The stock ECM is the only way to go. I plan to get it close as I can, then take it to get dynoed. | ||
| Hogs |
Sorry for being off the thread here, But wd. anyone know the part number for K&N power commander that I could use on MY xb12 r ,THanks .. | ||
| Robhughes |
Funny how I got jumped all over before when I posted pics of the system way back when........ The silence is golden.....well...Titanium. LOL Have a good night guys. (Message edited by RobHughes on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Barkandbite |
Rob: You got jumped on because you made claims without... Oh, nevermind...why'd ya have to go an drag that up? +11/+12 is a very nice gain! Now you've shown that it's not a Corey James vaporware product. You have anyone lined up for an install on a 9? I've got the TFI and race ECM (I also still have my stock ECM) I'll do it as long as I can get some help with the tuning (I'm on the left coast)...I'm going to suggest either the swiss-cheese 12 box or the FAST system, however. You think that the midrange gap in the dyno above might be due to airflow? Sorta looks that way in the A/F graph? Chris | ||
| Ingemar |
I think I wait on DaveS before I pass any judgement on the product. I believe its a good system, but this comparison is apples to oranges and doesn't prove much other than how easily you are all misled. | ||
| Noface |
you mean stainless Rob?  | ||
| Robhughes |
Well the can and dumps are Ti.... | ||
| Trenchtractor |
'Funny how I got jumped all over before when I posted pics of the system way back when........ The silence is golden.....well...Titanium.' I dunno where you get that idea from... I asked you post the different charts with the different TFi settings, since you claim 'the dyno you see here has been tuned to give the most power over the widest range, which happen s to be right in the mid range.', which is fine, but you are blaming the apparent lack of gains on the TFi. I go and post a chart that shows an almost 10 ft/lb gain in the same place JUST BY ADDING THE PRO SERIES ECM on a 12, then Blake posts a chart that shows an 5 ft/lb gain on a 9 simply by adding the pro seties ECM and the D&D, no custom fuel map... If the pro series ECM is good for 10 ft/lbs at the same place, how can you think that your pipe PLUS K&N PLUS TFi being worth 12 ft/lbs is good... What were the horsepower gains you were claiming again??? Perhaps some of us are waiting to see the results from Dave... | ||
| Robhughes |
Sounds like I need to get a ECM....to see what the real deal is. Anyone got one I can borrow? | ||
| Fullpower |
Rob: put the exhaust on a stock bike, see what the AF curve looks like. then have a custom ecm burned, and sell the package. no tuning, no bs, just bolt on the exhaust, plug in the ecm, and ride. the stock ecm is a very inexpensive part, the race ecm is only about $180 or so. just find a good hacker to diddle the internal map to suit your pipe, maybe bump the rev limit by a few hundred rpms or so, and you can start selling your Genuine Documented Ti-Force 105 rear wheel horsepower system. really thats all you have to do. if you allow a stock xb12 to breathe through 2 inch primaries, and rev to 7000 you will be laying down 105 hp easy. | ||
| Hogs |
Noface do you still have that ECM ??? Send me an email Thanks |
