| Author | Message | ||
     Dhays1775 |
Hey guys, its been a while since I've posted here. A few details about the CR, has 43,000 miles on her now. Had her since 6969 miles. Valve service every winter like clockwork. The problem is this: downshifted a couple gears to pass a very slow car yesterday and as soon as I hit 6500 rpms, she fell on her face and wouldn't accelerate. Ended up having to pull back behind the car I was trying to pass. Regardless of gear, 6500 and it hits a wall like there's a flutter in the airbox, almost like an intake leak. (I've had more than a few bikes do this to me.) I've reset the tps and nothing. I've checked the intake for leaks, nothing there either. Swapped back to the stock ecm, same issue. (I have an ebr ecm, TM intake stacks, k&n filter, and an awesome Keda RT3 exhaust for at least the last 20,000 miles.) If I ride it like a Harley, she's ok. But where's the fun in that? Anyone have ideas on where I can look for possible issues? Any and all help is greatly appreciated!! | ||
| Two_seasons |
I do not own a CR but, at the throttle bodies, there is a small hose that apparently comes off sometimes. Maybe your throttle cable is binding. Unless you have run it up past 6K rpm's since the last valve check rotation, it could have been like this for a while now. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
early bikes had a solenoid attached to the throttle linkage to pass govt regs. here's a link about it...if you have a race ECM it is not activated, but the linkage may be there and giving you a problem if it's not tied down. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/469640.html Check you fuel pump pressure...there is an electrical connection problem that causes power to the pump to become erratic...here's a link: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/ 425717.html?1230760907 Check your grounds...how old is the battery? google at the top of the page is your friend... hth | ||
| Dhays1775 |
Solenoid and cables were removed long ago. Cable and hose are good. I run to red line pretty much every time I ride, so I don't think THAT'S the issue. Fuel pump pressure is within spec according to the repair manuals. Grounds are good. I installed a secondary ground cable from the battery to the tank/frame and it helped the hot cranking issues. The battery is a Shorai, only 2 months old. Still strong cranking and balances just fine. I'm usually pretty good at trouble shooting, but this one has me stumped. | ||
| Panshovevo |
Air filter clean? Throttle valves both opening all the way? Any trouble codes? Like maybe TPS? Bad fuel? Bad spark plug or coil? Partially blocked injector? Intake snorkel open and secure? (Just wondering if maybe the snorkel is loose, and goes into some sort of resonant flutter at the rpm in question...) Intake air temp sensor okay? | ||
| Froggy |
Put it in diagnostic mode (hold mode and toggle on the dash, turn key to on), then tab over until you get to the TPS percentage, it should smoothly scroll from like 4% to 100% as you twist the throttle. I had the same issue in the past and it ended up being the throttle cables getting snagged and it wouldn't get past like 70%. In my case once I took airbox off I was able to get to 100%. (Message edited by Froggy on August 10, 2017) | ||
| Dhays1775 |
No codes on the IC. Air filter was cleaned about 1500 miles ago. Pretty sure it's not bad fuel, always go to the same gas station when I can, and the last couple fill ups have been at the normal place. Did the spark plug clean thing via the ecm. No change. I even removed the airbox cover and rode a few miles just to see. No difference there either. Before leaving the house, I reset the TPS. shows a smooth graduation from 2 to 100, just like she always has. I'm gonna try and rig up a hose to use a propane torch (not lit) to see if I get any rise in rpms around the intake tracts. Thanks for the ideas guys. I'll keep trying to figure this out. I'm still scratching my head. I might pull the rear plug just to see the condition. (Although, I installed new plugs at 36k, so I'm not super hopeful about that being the culprit.)  | ||
| Panshovevo |
I just noticed you have an EBR ECM and TM intake stacks. Just for the hell of it, try pulling the intake stacks off. Have you verified the integrity of the two small hoses that go to an adapter on the MAP switch, and the braided line that runs down to the clutch? Are you running the original coils? (Message edited by Panshovevo on August 10, 2017) | ||
| Stimbrell |
There have been a couple of posts like this where a rocker arm has broken and a valve is not opening, If I remember they were on the rear cylinder and it was an intake valve, look down the throttle bodies and turn the engine over and make sure the valves are all opening, hopefully it is something simpler. | ||
| Dhays1775 |
Stimbrell, come to think of it, I'm fairly certain I was one of the ones who had this issue before.  The hard part is trying to dig through all my motorcycle parts to see if I have one of the followers lying around that wasn't torn up. I'll check the intake when I get home today and make sure both valves are moving when they're supposed to be moving. Fingers crossed that I don't have to buy ANOTHER set of used heads just for one part... More troubleshooting to follow this afternoon. I'll keep everyone posted on what I find. Thank again!! | ||
| Nuts4mc |
maybe...magnetic material/shavings/chips on the crank position sensor?...the ECM gets confused at RPM and the sparks don't happen when they should....? http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/636663.html | ||
| Panshovevo |
Nuts4, I haven't experienced that problem on a Helicon motor yet, but on a Harley, one of the symptoms is hard cranking, like the ignition timing is too far advanced. I've had it happen twice on a 96" Twin Cam. First time, I was able to clean the ferrous debris off the sensor, the second time, I had to replace it with new. Checking and cleaning is cheap and easy though, and ya never know... (Message edited by Panshovevo on August 11, 2017) | ||
| Dhays1775 |
Sadly, I believe it to be a broken finger follower. Removed the filter, wide open throttle when I hit the starter, and only one of the rear intake valves was moving. So... I started the engine rotation procedure. I may end up pulling the frame and front end like I did the last couple times. Not super excited about the repair simply due to trying to find parts. I dug through mounds of old parts, and I didn't find anything that might be handy for me. I'll keep this thread updated as I go. Thanks again for all the input!! Another reason I love BadWeb! | ||
| Panshovevo |
Check some of the sellers on EBay that part out 1125 motors. Pinhead Cycle comes to mind. (Oops, that's Pinwall...) One of them might have a stray follower lying around. | ||
| Stevel |
Fingers do not just break on their own. Normally, they are caused by valve float dislodging the valve shim, which jams between finger and spring retainer. This prevents the valve from returning to its seat. This causes a space argument between the valve and piston. In most cases the piston wins. You will have to pull the head to assess all the damage. On these engines the valve springs are weaker than they should be. Age makes them weaker yet. The motto of the story is don't over speed the motor, especially high mileage motors. | ||
| Willmrx |
If you have to remove the heads, be aware that getting all the parts you will need my be difficult. I just did a complete rebuild earlier this year and had to get the head bolts through Twin motorcycles. Also if you need any valves, Lance at St Paul Harley can help you out! He also has gasket kits that have valves seals and wrist pin clips which Harley no longer has. You may want to replace the timing chains and the lower cam chain guides with the 2010 ones. They are better at keeping oil on the chain and they all so quieted the engine noise a little. Valve springs are a must! Good luck! | ||
| Panshovevo |
Steve, have you found a source for a stronger spring? Have you looked into the 1190 springs? | ||
| Panshovevo |
BTW, LAP inventory shows 2340 1125 head bolts at $8 and change each. The suffix of the part number is different from what's in the 1125 parts manual, but if I needed head bolts, I'd look in to it. I'm curious though, unless someone just wanted to cut the heads off of a couple of head bolts to use as cylinder guides during assembly, why you would need new head bolts? Or unless they were building a higher than stock compression race motor? Or maybe rebuilding/repairing a very high mileage motor? Or is there something I don't know about these? (Message edited by Panshovevo on August 12, 2017) | ||
| Willmrx |
Because when you tighten the head bolts you end up stretching them to a specific state of yield. Reusing them is not recommended. I ended up getting 4 head bolts from EBR. They were for 1190, however the are different than the stock 1125R bolts. The overall length of threads on the 1125R is much longer than the 1190 by ,say 2/3 longer. I spoke with EBR and they could not give me the correct torque specs or method used to tighten it. The 1125R gives you a specific ft/lbs and than you twist it so many degrees, while EBR gives you a ft/lbs spec to tighten it to. They told me that the engines (1125R and the 1190) use different head and cylinder gaskets so they could not give me any specs. | ||
| Panshovevo |
Do you still have the part number of the head bolts you got from EBR? I'm going to edit this in a minute with the number that the most recent inventory list shows as 1125 head bolts. (Near as I can tell, the difference between 1125 and 1190 head gaskets is .018" in thickness. The 1190 RX/S use thinner head and cylinder base gaskets, if I interpret what I see correctly.) CA0035.1C5 Rev A is what I see on the latest LAP inventory list. In case anyone is not aware of it, you should be able to buy anything on that list from EBR at list price, assuming the part exists. As I have posted before, things that haven't been in stock for two years have turned up on that list. A word to the wise...if you are planning to do a large purchase from LAP to get the discount, don't eat up EBR Tech and EBR parts time with questions about the parts... (Message edited by Panshovevo on August 12, 2017) | ||
| Panshovevo |
Willmrx, I have reused Harley Evolution head bolts and cylinder studs several times with no problems, even when going from 8.5-1 CR to 11-1 CR. I wouldn't worry a great deal about it. If I was flying it, I'd be more concerned. | ||
| Willmrx |
I am flying it! My ridding buddies and I ride theses bikes very hard, almost every ride. Plus I am not of the mind set of investing lots of my time and money to rebuild a (high performance) engine and then not use to new parts, especially when the manufacture recommends that you do not reuse a part. I come from a back ground in aviation, so I treat my bike just like it is a aircraft. I am glad you have been lucky reusing head bolts. I am not up to taking that type of risk. | ||
| Stevel |
Willmrx, You are correct to want to change the head bolts, but the risk of not doing so is a blown head gasket.....so what. Head bolts must stretch to function correctly and compensate for thermal expansion and contraction. However, never into the yield range. If you wish to replace the bolts, you should consider replacing them with studs. They are available from ARP. All EBR's race engines used these ARP studs. Pan, Yes, I have. It has taken me 2 yrs. to source the correct spring and retainer. I elected to use single beehive springs made from ovate wire, but they will not fit the standard head....they are too tall. | ||
| Mog |
Steve, could you offer a bit more detail on 1. If the beehive spring is too tall did you mill the base upon which it is seated?.2. From whom did you get the springs and retainers? For the studs, is ARP USA or overseas? Great knowledge!! | ||
| Stevel |
Mag, The head issues are many. I want to run 14mm of valve lift. The standard head will accommodate 10mm. EBR's race cams used 11mm, but to do that required cutting back the valve guide and the use of very thin spring seats. EBR used the standard spring on their race bikes. The standard spring has only has 11.5 mm of compression range before coil stacking occurs. The use of the standard springs actually reduced seat spring pressure on their race bikes. In order to run the 14mm lift requires a smaller base circle on the cams, taller valve stems and taller springs to accommodate the 14mm of lift. This increased finger stroke also changes the finger geometry a bit requiring finger contact patch extension to accommodate the longer swipe motion without contact patch edge interference. All of this is required because of the lack of space in the head. The amount of material below the valve seat is quite limited, so plunge milling the valve seat area would likely strike into the water jacket just beneath the seat. In order to conserve space as much as possible, I wanted to use a larger diameter spring coil and ovate wire rather than round wire. I did not want to use an inner spring, because it would require additional valve guide shortening and that would induce valve stem instability and increased guide wear. I felt the single spring solution was better and appropriate due to the space constraints. The beehive design also changes the springs effective speed range without encountering the springs critical harmonic and also reduces the reciprocating mass in two respects. The top coils are smaller and have less mass and the smaller diameter of the top coil also reduces the size and mass of the spring retainer. The weight change was so significant that the use of titanium offered very little weight advantage over steel. Steel also has much better wear and strength characteristics over titanium, so I made them in steel. Now that I had the spring design requirements solidified, I went looking for existing springs, as the cost of custom springs would have been prohibitive. After two years of searching, I found a company that made them, but they made them for another firm and could not sell them to me. When I contacted that company, they had them made after market for a racing cam intended for a Kawasaki quad engine. As you can see, the use of these springs are not a bolt in and run deal. |
