| Author | Message | ||
     Pwillikers |
I'm at 24K miles and am planning a comprehensive service. It'll include servicing the forks. I gather, from several inconclusive sources, that the stock fluid is 7.5W. Can anyone confirm this? I've rebuilt many damper rod forks with gold valves and such but I've never serviced a cartridge fork. Any tips on procedure are much appreciated. | ||
| Sprintst |
Stock forks aren't cartridge | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Pw... Fork oil is HD type E (P/N HD-99884-80)...OR 20WT to us non HD types...set level at 117mm or 4.6" from the top of a compressed leg less spring...don't forget to work the cartridge up and down to expel any air) 1) use a six point socket on the top nut if you can...suggest you get it loose ( 1 full turn) before you take the fork legs out of the triple clamps...it's tough to do it on the bench...( if you don't loosen it first!) 2) there is a "lock nut" under the fork tube top "nut"...but to get at it you must pull down the "pre-load spacer" a metal tube with holes in it ... I used some "S" hooks, a couple of turn buckles and some chain from a swing set to pull/hold the spacer down while I broke loose the nut...( HD cost accounts must of attacked the costs and demanded a "short/low cost spring") 3) the bottom bolt is an allen head cap screw ...most likely 6mm allen hex...you'll need a long allen wrench cut down to fit a socket or a long allen socket (Harbor Freight) AND a impact wrench to get the bolt loose...I highly recommended an Impact wrench...or you'll be wasting time....suggest a new copper gasket/washer on the re-assembly and some blue lock tite on the bolt 4) get some PVC tubing and with a hack saw split it lengthwise to make a seal driver...or if you have a bench grinder...grind the OD of the old seal a little and use it as a tool to drive in the new seal 5) BEFORE you place the seal over the tube...put a piece of plastic shopping bag over the end of the tube (like a condom)...otherwise the tube end's sharp edges may cut the new seal... the bag is enough protection to prevent it ...pack the seal with some good synthetic grease before you start the installation process 6) "You Tube" is your friend...many movies on how to do this...remember we have Showa forks on these things... the same used by Mr Honda. Hope this helps | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Stock fork is absolutely a cartridge fork--if it wasn't, it would be a damper rod fork. Stock fork oil is something ridiculously light, like 2.5wt. Back in the day, most people recommended switching to 5wt. I went straight to 10wt--the result was much firmer, and just how I like it. I like really firm suspension, so unless you like yours rock solid, I wouldn't go any thicker than 10wt. Be sure you loosen the pinch bolt in the triple tree before you attempt to loosen the fork cap. The pinch bolt, when fully tightened, will make it a lot harder to loosen the fork cap. It's been a couple years since I had my 1125's fork apart, so I don't remember any other pointers off the top of my head. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
have to agree with Rocket on both points...I put in 10 wt ...the book ( page 2-55) calls out type E...and yes loosen the top triple clamp bolt before you attack the big "nut" on top | ||
| Sprintst |
Then........why buy Traxxion or EBR cartridge kits? I may be wrong here, please educate me, but I've done my forks several times, don't need the cartridge tools........ Why can I buy cartridge emulators if I have a cartridge fork? The closest thing to a "cartridge" is the J8139.AMB DAMPER ASSEMBLY........ are you saying that's considered a cartridge? (Message edited by sprintst on June 22, 2015) | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Sprint...early forks (like 1960s era) were "conventional forks" with the "slider" on the bottom...as the slider traveled up as the wheel negotiated a bump the oil inside the leg would be forced to move though a series of fixed holes inside a dampener tube...these early dampener "tubes" were sealed with "piston rings" that sealed against the ID of the fork tube. Many small dirt bikes and even some street bikes ( Suzuki SVs had them) still use the technology today. Along came Race Tech with their Gold Valves... an adjustable spring controlled disk valve in a brass housing (aka "gold valve") it sits on top of the dampener tube and controls the oil flow with more "precision and adjust-ability" than the just the fixed holes in the tube alone...if you have ever installed a Gold Valve, most of the instructions have you drilling large "cross" holes thru the bottom of the dampener tube to allow unrestricted oil flow up the inside of the tube and controlled by the Gold Valve. Tires got better, frames got stiffer, front forks started to flex...the battle between HP and Frame flex and Tires has gone on for years...some conventional forks received "cartridge dampeners" ...that is a small tube attached to the top of the fork controlled the vertical action of the gold valve type device inside a larger tube or cartridge when the fork was compressed or extended...this conventional fork with cartridge control were usually on early sport bikes in the 600 size ( Honda F4, 'Zuki GSXR, etc). As tires got better and frames got stiffer... front forks would start to flex under loads of braking and turning...the Upside down fork was introduced ( I believe on dirt bikes first) inside was the cartridge dampener with a series of adjustable "valves" available on the exterior of the forks...basically the cartridge come in sizes 20/25mm which most modern sport bikes have and 30mm or Big Piston Forks on some Kawis...here's link to an article on BPF and a gold valve modification: http://www.trackdaymag.com/categories/coverstories /793-race-tech-30mm-gold-valve-fork-kit-2398681 so what to you get with a premium suspension "cartridge"...precision in the components that make up the cartridge, ( vs mass produced tolerances)...here's a link to Race Tech's gold valve offerings for our Showa suspension components: ( click on the Yellow product names for better description and pictures) http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Buell/1125R/20 08-09 if you would like further info suggest you try and find a copy of Kevin Cameron's "Sportbike Performance Handbook" although it was written back in the late 90s (1998)...Kevin uses his writing and drawing skills to explain the subject in further detail...hope this helps (Message edited by nuts4mc on June 23, 2015) | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Nuts4mc summed it up pretty nicely--just have one correction to make. Gold valves ARE for cartridge forks, or for shocks, but not for damper rod forks. The things that go in damper rod forks aren't called Gold Valves, they're called emulators. The name is because they are intended to make damper rod forks emulate cartridge forks by separating the compression and rebound damping into two different circuits. In a damper rod fork, the compression and rebound damping are both handled by the damper rod, effectively making them part of the same circuit. Any change to the damper rod will affect compression AND rebound damping. With a cartridge emulator installed, the emulator controls compression damping (and is adjustable) and the damper rod continues to control rebound damping. You can then vary the weight of the fork oil to control rebound damping, and then adjust the spring on the emulator to control compression damping. Cartridge forks can either be female slider (traditional style with the smaller tube up top) style or male slider style (aka upside down fork). Damper rod forks are always female slider style. | ||
| Sprintst |
Thanks guys | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Dang, I wish I had taken a picture of the stock cartridges compared to the Buell upgraded cartridges. Like night and day. The stockers looked like cheap low grade components compared to the upgraded cartridges. Upgraded cartridges were significantly thicker and more substantial as well. I thought about taking pics, but your urge to grab the phone is lessened when you have fork oil everywhere. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I don't doubt that the aftermarket cartridges are beefier, but I bet that even a discerning street rider would be happy with the stock fork with some heavier oil, provided that the bushing and seals were in good shape and not stictiony (LOL that's a new word). | ||
| Pwillikers |
Thank you Ron, This is exactly the advice I was seeking: 2) there is a "lock nut" under the fork tube top "nut"...but to get at it you must pull down the "pre-load spacer" a metal tube with holes in it ... I used some "S" hooks, a couple of turn buckles and some chain from a swing set to pull/hold the spacer down while I broke loose the nut...( HD cost accounts must of attacked the costs and demanded a "short/low cost spring") Dave, a correction: Race Tech Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators (Race Tech's full name for the devices commonly referred to as "Gold Valves" are most definitely intended for damper rod forks). Their primary benefit is to improve high speed and low speed compression damping. Here's an excerpt from the Race Tech website: Fork Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators Damping rod forks are notorious for being both too harsh yet too easy to bottom. This is the nature of damping rod fixed orifice forks. In the past all that could be done to improve these forks was change spring rate, oil viscosity or damping hole size, until now. Cartridge Emulators make damping rod style forks perform like well-tuned cartridge forks. These tunable valves sit on top of the damping rods and are held in place by the main springs. This makes them both simple to install and completely tunable for all conditions and rider preferences. Track tests have consistently produce lap times that are 1 or more seconds a lap faster while Cruisers and Gold Wing owners rave at the increased control and ride quality. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
PW...you should seek out JDugger ( aka "wizard of whoa")...he uses his Buell for track day instruction and lives in your state...I know - you have a BIG state, but his insight to maintenance issues would be helpful...good luck with the rebuild...do your best to keep things clean. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Pwillikers, we're apparently just talking about the same thing, just with different names. I thought they were just called cartridge emulators, but it looks like Gold Valve is part of the whole name. | ||
| Sprintst |
So I just found out that the Buell repair manual incorrectly has you putting the fork seals in upside down - they have the spring facing the dust seal, and it should be facing the oil Well that certainly explains the problems I've been having UGH | ||
| Steeleagle |
Yep! I noticed they came out opposite of what the manual said, and I started to assume mine were leaking because of it. So I asked the brain trust here to be sure...before I installed them wrong. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/762846.html?1431943430 Sorry about your luck. I (almost) feel your pain! |
