| Author | Message | ||
     Jj5cool1 |
Hello everyone, ever since I obtained Vicky I've always wondered if any 1190rx parts swapped over with eased as upgrades in either performance, maintenance, or even looks. So I ask if anybody is aware of such items, if they could do me and everyone else a favor by listing what they know works. With EBR in receivership and part quantities low, I'd like to get my hands on a few things (sorry EBR owners). So far I know the following: RX brake cooling duct I'm unsure but curious as to the following: Master cylinder (is this the same as the accosoto upgrade that was available from EBR a while back?) Slotted front rotor Is the EBR front caliper really lighter? Then if in time an 1190 is parted out I wonder about the following: Front forks and rear shock Upper triple tree (is this the same as the one offered by EBR a while back) and clip ons (it appears) Swingarm and chain drive system Front and rear wheels and the axle bolt/bearings Also heard of someone getting parts and attempting the cooling system swap. Be interested in hearing what they found. Although by the looks the front header will have to be swapped, too, along with the horn muffler system. Horn mounting is different and will need the RX/SX body work as well. And that's about all over found. So anything else you know or can confirm, I'd love to hear it. Thank you guys | ||
| D_adams |
No. The RX/SX has a Nissin M/C. | ||
| Ace117 |
A good amount of 1190 parts will fit the 1125. Im the person doing the cooling system swap BTW. So far I have purchased the left and right motor mounts (L brackets) left and right radiator brackets, left and right radiators and mounting hardware. I realized form day 1 that a good deal of MODs was in order to get this to work. My initial goal was the 1190rs race exhaust, I sourced that from Michael Ritter back in 2012. I was in Indiana for some training at the time so i gave shit him an email and drove up on a friday morning, I got to EBR around 3pm and got a nice tour to top it all of. Anyhow I wanted the straight header because to me it mad more sense for the header to go down and under than to the side, that and it looks 100 times better. I was told when I got that exhaust that the straight front header actually made more HP over the side exit front header so that was GOOD thing. Installing the exhaust required some cutting on the engine to gain clearance, EBR also cuts/grinds this area down on the 1190 to make room for the exhaust. After this MOD the exhaust bolts right on just like that! Which brings me to the cooling system, I knew I would need the 1190 setup so I waited for ever till the parts became available that too bolts on, almost as if these parts were developed on the 1125... Hmmmm? I still need to order the oil cooler left/right thermostat and all the coolant hoses and oil lines as well as fans shrouds and hardware. From what I have seen so far it will all bolt up and fire up fine. Some other parts that will cross over are the tail section, i asked while at EBR but you will have a gap between the seat and air box cover. The swing arm will for sure fit, I was told this when I got the exhaust. Michael said all future chain conversion kits for 1125s would be using the new style 1190 swing arms as apposed to the old 1125 swing arm with welded on axle adjuster. The wheels will also work but i think some MODs are required for the front wheel to fit the stock 1125 forks, I am not 100% sure. Im willing to bet the rear-sets will also fit, I am however not sure about the forks and trees. Also the twin motorcycles velocity stacks will not fit, the rear throttle body is blocked by the shower-head injector mount and will not all the rear stack to go in the throttle-body. The front throttle body for whatever reason (me thinks the stack sits a tad bit too high) will not hold the the spring that secures the stack in place it just snaps out (I tried this out last night). I have looked into/tinkered with this for a while and this is all i can think will fit but there might be more parts that I am not aware of. I hope this helps some, if you need part #s and prices for the parts i already bought ill send them your way. | ||
| Rick_fears |
Ace117, Pictures? Do you have a contact for parts? Looking into a 1190 front end on my 1125. Definitely interested in the cooling system. I have been looking into retrofitting systems from other bikes but this sounds much easier. Maybe a bit pricier though... Shoot me an email with some part numbers and prices if you have a chance. I'd love to hear more about what you have done to your bike. thegoosepage@gmail.com | ||
| Zac4mac |
If it's any help. the RS has the OEM 1125 radiused throat on front and a stack about 3/4 the height of Twin's on the rear. Pretty sure, but I may be backwards. I have the RS' airboxes off doing a noid-delete. I'll update if I dyslexed it... I'll definitely repost with some pix. I have a lot of fancy shit on this bike, but NOT the new RX/SX cams.... I want 2 sets. Z | ||
| Mrlogix |
Ace117, Pictures Please | ||
| Ace117 |
Rick_fears, I will email you some pics along with part numbers and prices. I don't really have a parts contact, I have just been dealing with San Diego BMW. The day I ordered my radiators they had told me they were getting ready to drop EBR due to unpaid warranty work, they pull all EBRs from their showroom floor. The parts guy, Matt Kary told me he could order all the parts I wanted because they are still able to order them. Mrlogix, I'd love to post pics but I am the worst at computer stuff and dont know how to resize them. | ||
| Mrlogix |
Z-I have a lot of fancy shit on this bike, but NOT the new RX/SX cams.... I want 2 sets. Did you get a price yet? I've been looking at getting a set of the Daniel Crower 1125RR cams because I didn't think the EBR's would be available. Ace- appreciate it. If it's not a problem I'll pm you my email. I bought a spare engine 09' CR 6K miles from a buddy on another forum. I'd like to see what it would be with 1190 overbore, 13.4-5 CR, Crower cams, RC Engineering Fuel Injectors (would like to find a fuel psi, injector combo to get around showerhead inj. If I have to go with 2/cyl would like to modify the TB to head manifold for two inj. Problem is the intake is too short to keep from shrouding one or the other)and maybe a different ECU/Firmware. | ||
| Stevel |
Zac4mac and Mrlogix, You both have mentioned you want a set of RX/SX cams. I have to ask why? Do you know the timing and specs of them? The same question towards Dan Crower's cams. I contacted Dan Crower and specifically asked that question and never got an answer. I deduced that the cam profile originated from another motorcycle and not developed for a Buell. So, I would like to know why you feel either of these cam sets offer any advantage. Please help. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Steve The new cams have one intake valve opening a few degrees before the other one. That offset starts a swirl in the chamber that has a couple of benefits. Better(more) fuel charge and better mixing for a more consistent flame-front. It's the source of the RX/SX HP gain over the RS, even with all it's race parts. I am very interested in your views on this since you know way more than I on this subject. Z | ||
| Mrlogix |
I have enquired into the lift, duration, valve overlap spec's of the 1190RS and RX from EBR and Crower cams also with no reply. I do know that the 1125, 1125RR, 1190RS and the RX/SX cams are all different part numbers and different grinds. I don't think Erik would have went to the trouble and expense of developing new grinds if they are not beneficial. I am aware of the pattern separation that Z mentioned, to induce swirl into the chambers. The progression of grinds reflect the progression of HP/Torque increases of each iteration. I realize that the cams by themselves may or may not be the major contributor of the increase. I have requested info/spec's on the heads, ports, combustion chamber design. I have requested info on the 1190 BBK and the piston crown design in relation to the squish band of the 1125 heads. Hell I tried to find out the damn compression ratio of the EBR 1190 BBK with the replies being 'I don't know' and engineering is too busy to answer right now. Honda and Suzuki tried cam profiles where one valve opened a few degree's earlier back in the 80's but ran into problems of loss of laminar flow in the ports at low to mid-range. Evidently EBR engineering found an answer to this. I even asked EBR if I could replace the entire cylinder assemblies from the cylinder base gasket up. They said no. I guess I will have to wait until I can find an insurance buy off of a wrecked one to find out. | ||
| Stevel |
What I know for sure is that the head needs very serious help. The ports are very lazy and there is very poor flame propagation under partial throttle conditions. Cam profile change cannot be a stand-alone mod and see a meaningful gain. I absolutely would not buy either the Dan Crower cams nor any Buell grind with blinders on. I want to measure the cams first. I personally give no credence to any advantage in phasing the cams as has been stated by Buell. I am pretty sure it is fiction. I am now making a set of masters to grind a cam set that I think will help dramatically, but these cams will not bolt in and run, several changes must be performed on the head casting. In addition, the valves must be longer and the change also requires new springs, spring seats, guides and retainers. In summary, if you can't get the data, don't buy it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The 1190 heads also have a "bypass" intake port that apparently only comes into play at low throttle openings.  I'll bet that has a lot to do with the 50+ MPG EPA mileage figure. | ||
| Mrlogix |
I agree Steve, the cams are only part of the picture. To realize any serious gains and maintain street-ability there are other systems that need addressed. Until I can get my hands on an actual set of Crowers or EBR 1190's so I can profile them, I'll never know. Right now I have neither and the manufactures are not giving me any info. The quench area of the 1190 BBK, piston compression height and CR, ring stack, port volume, etc., etc. It's kind of like starting from scratch. I agree that the swirl capability of one valve opening a couple of degrees before the other isn't making any huge change. Most of the work of swirl technology developed by Honda and Suzuki was aimed at efficiency for anticipated EPA requirements, The performance R&D wasn't to impressive. That being said power and performance gains after a certain point are typically small and the $:HP ratio changes dramatically. The best gains are synergistic with mods complementing other mods. | ||
| Mrlogix |
Hughlysses- where did you find the image illustrating the By-pass Port air flow, if you don't mind me asking? | ||
| Hughlysses |
That one came from Cycle World, but I saw it on a bunch of sites around the time of the 1190RX release. | ||
| Stevel |
Bypass port? What does this bypass? I can't tell what this port is, how big it is or from where to where it goes. Has anybody got a cylinder head to take a few photos? | ||
| Stevel |
Perhaps this port is an EGR port controlled by a valve? If so, please explain how this creates more power? For those uninformed, EGR introduces spent exhaust gases into the fresh intake charge to reduce combustion temperature below 3500 F above which nitrogen oxides are created. When the exhaust gases are introduced into the fresh air/fuel charge creating greater space between fuel particulate to particulate space slowing flame propagation reducing peak pressures and temperatures. Unfortunately poor flame propagation and thermal efficiency is a inherent fault with this engine. This technique works reasonably well with small squish chambers, but fails miserably with open chambers like ours. If my guess is correct, it will further reduce both power and economy. | ||
| Stevel |
Mrlogix, You are correct to assume that the info we need will not be forthcoming, but judging from the observed performance of both the Buell race engines and those engines equipped with the Dan Crower cams, it would not help the cause anyway other than tell us what not to do. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Steve- It's not EGR. Here's an explanation from a Roadracing World article:
Link to article: http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ebr-1190sx-fir st-ride-magazine-feature/ | ||
| Mrlogix |
Jj5cool1- sorry about that. Kind of got off on a tangent. Sounds like Ace is your best resource right now on the cooling upgrade retrofit info.  | ||
| Stevel |
Thanks to Mrlogix. John has provided to me an explanation of a similar system used on the Panigale. H-, you are correct, it is not EGR. I believe the correct explanation is that this port satisfies the reflected exhaust vacuum at low speed partially preventing this vacuum from sucking the fresh A/F charge directly into the exhaust system during camshaft overlap when air column inertia is not strong enough to prevent gas reversion. It is clever, but I have read nothing on this subject, so I have been unable to evaluate its effectiveness. | ||
| Stevel |
Jj5cool1, My apologies for hijacking your thread. The original thread's point is very valid, but perhaps a bit inverted. You should be asking yourself what 1125 parts are usable on the 1190, not the other way around. Even that will dry up pretty quickly in about a year. Our only hope is that a white knight shows up and bails the 1125/1190 effort out. Personally, I don't see that happening. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
With the prices dropping on 1190's it seems to me it would be much cheaper to sell the 1125 and buy an 1190 rather then buy 1190 parts to make the 1125 look like one. I realize its the fun of modding though. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
^^ BINGO!! | ||
| Zac4mac |
I feel real comfortable with my Buell/EBR bikes. The RS, officially Black Betty(Dan's favorite song), has almost 600 miles and is smmooooottthhh compared to fresh. The Uly is a Pickup with 2 wheels and runs like a tank. Loretta, previous role as "hot-rod" will become a Sport-Tour. on steroids... So far H-D has done well with parts, just got a bunch of stuff for Loretta AND Betty. Don't worry, ride! Z | ||
| Rick_fears |
I really love the technical conversations on this thread. It's about the only reason I hang around here anymore. I appreciate the insight. All this talk about the heads, am I incorrect to assume the block itself is identical between the 1125 and 1190? As far as I know it is. Confirmation? Paging Ace117. Still wanting to see those pictures!  | ||
| Stevel |
Rick, I assume you mean cylinder, not block. When discussing motorcycle engines it is head, cylinder and engine case, as they are usually separate parts. In which case, I don't know. This question has been asked many times and no definitive answer ever emerged. A couple of years ago, I specifically asked this question to Court. He replied that the cylinder casting has indeed changed, but when I asked how and where, Court never replied. Since then, many 1190 engines have been built and yet no one on this forum has ever submitted 1190 cylinder dimensions, which would be very helpful. In my opinion the original 1125 cylinder is not dimensionally stable under load when the bore is opened up from 103mm to 106mm. In other earlier threads I have been very specific on why and how, so I won't repeat that here. You may also note that very same concern existed at Ducati when they opened up the 1199 bore to the new 1299 dimension. To satisfy that concern, they sleeved the casting with an iron sleeve. | ||
| Mrlogix |
the 1190RX/SX is still new enough that most owners haven't tore into them yet. Some of the RS people may have or anyone racing the 1190, but those people probably don't want to share what they have found. I'm sure that the Pegasus race team has this info as they received two of the 1190RR's. Us little guys are on our own. Same capabilities just takes longer to get our hands on what we need. | ||
| Ace117 |
I will post pics tonight along with part numbers and prices. I have been busy, Im in the process of relocating my family TN and while finishing up my workup for deployment. I wish i had more time to finish my project and report my findings but im only home for a week at a time between training trips. |
