| Author | Message | ||
     Stevel |
I for one would like to hear an official statement from EBR on what 1125 upgrade support can be expected, if any. I am aware of Erik's non-compete clause with HD, but I would like to think it would exclude modifications and upgrades. If that is not the case, it would be nice to know. It would be also nice to know where others stand on this subject and specifically what they would like to see. | ||
| Court |
If you are "aware of Erik's non-compete" ..... There are a ton of folks, I suspect erik included, who would like to know about it. There was an agreement to allow use and sales of race support items but any sort of an upgrade' from EBR for another company's product, would seem a huge problem. I compared the concept, in a thread about EBR reintroducing the Ulysses, as Ford announcing a new model of the Camaro. T'aint happening. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Aw, c'mon Court. The Camaro has eight cylinders and four wheels just like the Mustang...why WOULDN'T Ford make a new version of it? I mean...it's the same thing, right? | ||
| Dannybuell |
Liability, Liability, Liability. | ||
| 1313 |
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| Stevel |
Court, Perhaps you are correct that it is not going to happen, but if this "agreement" is for only race related parts, then why is it EBR does the stator upgrade thing? It is clearly an 1125 upgrade. The modified stator is not race related. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that other parts could also be included as upgrades, not the least of which are the radiators and oil cooler developed for the RX. In point of fact, I had an email exchange with Michael Richter in February this year where he promised to get back to me with RX pricing for just those parts. He has not yet to date and he probably forgot with everything else going on introducing the RX and the a new dealer network. Perhaps EBR wishes to do this through that network rather than the web site. Hence the query. Supporting the 1125 is very clearly not a huge problem, EBR has been doing this quite successfully for a number years already. There are also several other parts EBR developed for the 1125rr and were adopted and used on the RS and never offered on the web site, like the adjustable cam drive gear. This was made under EBR license by Andrews. It is a valid part with a part number and should be offered as an RS spare. So how do we buy this? It is not on the web site. Are we to use his new parts network? These are reasonable questions that should be politely answered. I for one, do not take kindly to smart ass replies, so are you speaking from authority or is your comment just your best , wild assed guess? | ||
| Court |
It is my best smart assed guess. EBR could give a flying rat's ass about the 1125. There was a very good reason for doing the stator. | ||
| Mhpalin |
Really Court so all those years I supported EBR buying,shirts CDs,parts and tools for my 1125s that's their thinking.Thanks EBR. | ||
| Northernyankee |
Stevel, I am not sure if you have ever heard of the saying "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". It may be just me but some of your posts over the last few months have been a bit inflammatory IMHO. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Critical analysis is always welcome, even more welcome is when it leads to an improvement. | ||
| Court |
Be mindful . . . . when you say "all these years" that I suspect you are talking about BUELL MOTORCYCLE COMPANY . . . a 100% owned by Harley-Davidson, Inc. company . . . as opposed to EBR. The two are legally, as well as practically, separate and distinct entities with widely disparate styles, markets and products. EBR does PRIMARILY engineering work. You may recall the recent interview in which the Chief Engineer mentioned that 5, of the 200" folks, are "working on motorcycle design". They HAVE done some engineering work, on contract, with Harley-Davidson. Specifically in instances where there is a crocus of knowledge at EBR and it's a non-HD current product where it is easier and more convenient to contract with EBR. EBR has ZERO rights to the bike or any part on it. It's confusing since folks tend to see Erik and think "his company, his bikes". | ||
| Mhpalin |
I miss spoke since EBR Racing started up is what I should have said.Mind you I did get a e-mail from EBR that stated that I could buy from a EBR dealer anything I needed.I still think us 1125 owners were thrown under the Bus by both H.D.(spit) and EBR NO DEALERS IN CANADA | ||
| Sprintst |
EBR could give a flying rat's ass about the 1125. Slight problem with that attitude - if we are left high and dry with the Buell 1125's, then why should we risk it again with EBR? I know Harley shutting down Buell wasn't in Erik's control, and I know there are limitations place on him, BUT........if my Buell becoming an albatross, well, then I'm not likely to risk it again with EBR. I don't view BMW, KTM or Ducati to be much of a risk. Despite claims that the EBR is 100% incompatible with the 1125, even the valve caps won't fit, there are some shocking similarities.  I think I'm not the only one that will think that way. } (Message edited by sprintst on December 22, 2014) | ||
| Stimbrell |
Over here in the UK, as my 1125R sits, once again, on stands in my garage, I have given the issue of support some thought. My rotor is with Twin Motorcycles being modified following another stator failure, I await the delivery of the Oberon slave cylinder I have ordered to fix the clutch fluid leak, I am wondering if the coolant leak from the pump, which I still have after the warranty fix, can wait for attention until the next valve service and I can literally remove and rewire the ignition switch in less than an hour now (use thinner wire, it lasts longer). All of these were known problems with the bike when it was under warranty and when it comes to support I am feeling pretty let down to put it mildly. If it was not for the stated policy of support for the bike by Twin Motorcycles this bike would have gone. Because of the above, even though I love my other bike, a Sportster, I will never buy a bike from Harley Davidson ever again and even if EBR becomes available in the UK I really do not believe I have faith enough in the product to buy from them. You can tell me how HD, Buell and EBR are all different from now to eternity, fact is I got stuffed on my purchase of a Buell 1125 from HD. (Message edited by stimbrell on December 22, 2014) | ||
| Mhpalin |
I agree 100% that is why there is a KTM 1190 adv in my garage | ||
| Nobuell |
"EBR could give a flying rat's ass about the 1125" Court, thanks for the clarification. The 1125 is a different situation. It has virtually nothing to do with HD. The 1125 is more closely related to the EBR. I have supported EBR every chance I could buying parts from them for my 1125r track bike. Court, that statement hits me wrong in so many ways and you will not find a bigger supporter of Mr. Buell's products. | ||
| Court |
>>> It has virtually nothing to do with HD. That's inaccurate. Harley-Davidson, Inc. owns the 1125 and all derivatives, 100%. It has nothing to do, or damn little, with any liability and it's not that the folks at EBR don't want you to be happy with your bike . . . but I'm not sure that one company, totally unrelated to another, can start assuming responsibilities for shortcomings in another's products. The Ford and Chevy analogy works pretty good . . . If Chevy started offering a fix for something like a recalled headlight on a Mustang . . . well, I think you'd have problems on a number of levels. But who knows . . . . perhaps next year EBR will buy the rights to the name and the enduring trademark (which has legally been abandoned) and start making parts and providing service for 1125s and Ulysses. Who knows . . . what'll happen. I do confess that during the time Ducati and Burger King were owned by the same company (Texas Pacific Group) I threatened to try to get replacement parts at a drive thru window. Be interesting to see . . . now that Pierre Terblanche, arguably the heart and soul of Ducati, is an employee of Royal Enfield, if the Indian firm will begin making parts for the 999. Could happen . . . . | ||
| Court |
Just so we are clear:
If . . . EBR has ANYTHING to do with the 1125 it will be at HD's written and legally negotiated invitation and the subject to an engineering support contract. Which would, frankly, be kind cool as that's pretty much the primary business EBR has evolved into. It worked for the stator. | ||
| Ljm |
I have bought 1125 "race only" parts from EBR and been happy with the parts and the service. Fried an ECM, but getting another. That's the way it goes. For the RS, I just ask. They are always prompt with the answer, etc. Seems to be a little outside their usual service network, but the bike is a little unusual too. FYI, over almost two years, they have responded immediately every time. | ||
| Court |
The support for the 1190RS is, and well should be, excellent. It was started, and continues, to be an effort from a couple folks that goes back to when the bike was rolled out about 3-1/2 years ago. The folks doing it preceded the "consumer" bikes and we quite well aware that a $45,000 motorcycle owner was going to expect excellent service, as well they should. The numbers have never materialized (and least that I can find). EBR says on their website that they built 100 as 2012 models (we all recall the glee when the FIM came and saw them with their own eyes and we got the wonderful word that EBR would indeed be a WSBK contender) and then followed up with:
I suspect . . . and stand eager and willing to be proven wrong . . . that there are only a couple dozen that ever got titled to "owners". This, having only a couple dozen out there, makes the effort more manageable. A key to success will be to scale the gallant efforts as more consumer level bikes are sold. Some of the basic rules of customer service will apply . . such as don't send replies plum chucked full of squishy "we hope to learn" . . "we don't know" and "we'll try to find out". When that's the honest answer, it's appropriate. When it's the response to each and every concern, it's problematic. Also, and this is perhaps just me, but I am no fan of getting notes from "the department". If you want to make an impression, take a lead from the best firms in the world when it comes to customer service with something like a real persons name and direct phone number. Owners say they want solutions . . they REALLY want faith and confidence. For more reading, check out some of the great books on customer service and some of the fabulous writings in the Harvard Business Review. A key is determining what the CUSTOMER perceives as service. Interesting times. | ||
| Stevel |
Sprintst, You are very correct. There are a lot more similarities than dis-similarities between the 1125 and 1190. This fact is very frustrating to the 30,000 (ish) 1125 owners. The very fact there are differences at all states there were better solutions available. Hindsight is 20-20 after all. These differences for the most part are upgrades and improvements to the 1125. Whether EBR wants to acknowledge it, the 1125 is its legacy, it carries Eric's name. It's all about perception. Even the cycle press believes it, just read about how Eric's motorcycles have been reborn with the new EBR models. A couple of years ago right here on Bad Web, I stated that I thought there was a time limitation for HD 1125 support and it was something like 7 yrs. Court went out of his way insisting there was no limitation. So here we are in 2014 with Court saying there is now only 18 mos. of support left by HD. To be honest, I don't know what that means. I suspect it means that the only parts that will be available will be NOS and no replacement spares will be manufactured. No matter how you look at it, we, the 1125 owners, are being thrown under the bus. Support for the 1125 has never been good anyway. You folks should know that there has never been available service bearings for the crankshaft......ever. If you wish to regrind a journal because of damage, it isn't possible because oversize bearings were never offered and probably not offered for the 1190 either. If you need them for a Ducati, Honda or Yamaha, no problem, they're in the catalog. Is this a problem, not if you have deep pockets, you just order a new crankshaft with standard bearings. No salesman, when you go to put your name on the dotted line, is going to tell you this. You, the owner, only discovers this when your in need. Nobody can convince me this support dilemma will not impact future sales of EBR products. Throwing all the 1125 owners under the bus will have unfortunate consequences. I sincerely hope that Court's statement "EBR could give a flying rat's ass about the 1125" is his alone. | ||
| Tq_freak |
They HAVE done some engineering work, on contract, with Harley-Davidson. Specifically in instances where there is a crocus of knowledge at EBR and it's a non-HD current product where it is easier and more convenient to contract with EBR. Court - I had to chuckle when I read this, if it wasn't BLATANTLY Obvious before that EBR had there hands in "project livewire" it should be now. Since I first saw that thing it screamed of Erik's handy work to me. Right down to the 1125 kickstand | ||
| Dannybuell |
I agree 100% with this "Owners say they want solutions . . they REALLY want faith and confidence." HBR :-) | ||
| Nobuell |
Court, I understand the actualities of HD/Buell ownership. I do not need a lesson on that issue. I understand that EBR is a separate, non affiliated company. The shut down of Buell by HD is an unusual event. It has left many Buell owners with the uneasy feeling of being between a rock and a hard spot. Fortunately for me, HD support for spare parts has been great. I have not had a single issue getting parts for any of my Buell's. I have 3 in my garage currently. As Spintst said, there are more similarities between the 1125R and the 1190. Many of us 1125 owners have looked at EBR as a stop gap should we loose support from HD. I understand that, as a separate company, there is no requirement to support 1125 owners. I also understand that there is now no reason in the world to be loyal to EBR because of the original connection with Buell and the hope we would get some support with our Buell"s, especially the Rotax variety. Court, I do thank you for the clarification. It will have a significant impact on my next bike purchase decision making process. | ||
| Dannybuell |
i agree 100% with this too! "Nobody can convince me this support dilemma will not impact future sales of EBR products." The average Buell/EBR buyer finds this website after or just before buying, like court says "they REALLY want faith and confidence". Bad web provides this. An EBR buyer sees the 1190 as a next generation Buell without deep corporate pockets. Hero support compares to Harley? Having lousy resale and an uncertain parts future is two strikes against the 1125. The 1190 has two strikes as well with it's design and racing history. | ||
| Captjoe |
"HD has, (not legally, but by their own statements) continuing support responsibility for another 18 months." I hope not! I still have 3 more years left on my extended warranty!  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone! } | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
It's really simple. EBR has no obligation to the 1125. Any support they offer is merely a courtesy, period. They've spoiled us into thinking they are obligatory. I'm grateful for what they have done. It's obvious they are weaning us off their apron strings and onto dealers (still a courtesy). | ||
| Sprintst |
It's not a courtesy It's an existing market It's potential customers It's leveraging your expertise and development work on your 1190's | ||
| Nobuell |
Throw away the loyal and now EBRs job is to convince those that would have nothing to do with Buell originally. That will be one heck of a marketing/sales job. From what I have seen of their sales and marketing plan, good luck. EBR may end up being an engineering company as Court identified. I stopped by my local EBR dealer the other day. I wanted to buy a chain idler gear and spacers for my track bike. Getting a price for the parts was interesting to say the least. They wanted me to leave and they would get back with me on availability and price. I hung around long enough that they were able to provide a price. The spacers were reasonably priced. The idler gear was in excess of $200.00. Needless to say that that transaction did not go through. That particular dealer sells KTM, Triumph, Ducati, Norton and MV. The EBR bikes are very industrial looking compared to the other bikes. The Ducati's and MV's are down right beautiful. An industrial looking bike will take a very special buyer. I am attracted to the industrial look because I am an engineer and like no nonsense.designs. That is probably one of the reasons that I have Buell's in the first place. It was said many times over the years that had the Buell's been in boutique dealers like above, they would sell. After being in that dealer, I am not to sure of that. It is also the little things. Have you tried to pull the clutch in on an EBR? Now go over to the 1199. It has a light springy feel with less than half the force required of the EBR. How long has EBR been playing with that engine. Once again, that is not a deal breaker to me because I only use the clutch half of the time on the track. It will be noticed by a routine buyer. I understand that there is new a retrofit kit available. What? I do not wish bad luck to EBR. I hope they are a wild success. But it is going to be a tough sell. | ||
| Sparky |
Re clutch pull on EBRs, of course it's stiff when the engine is off but not when it 's running because the clutch is vacuum assisted. I've been told that by several of the gals that own them! No problem for them! | ||
| Nobuell |
Unfortunately they are not running on the show room. I understand it does lighten some when running. I am talking perception and sales. Good for those girls by the way. |
