| Author | Message | ||
     Nobuell |
08 1125R set up for track - During the last session of my last track day, the bike started to cut out. Since it was the last session and I ran through my fuel, I just assumed I was low. It started doing it on the track and occasionally riding back to the pits. Last night I check the fuel and found that I really was not all that low. I have not had the opportunity to run it and check things over yet. Aside from the standard things like ground checks, battery cable, various electrical connections, any thoughts on other things to look at? It is a stock engine with a barker exhaust and a matching EBR ECM. All lights and street stuff has been removed. I still have the BAS on the bike. I can remove it for track use. The air temperature was approximately 86 deg F. I did notice the temperature was up to around 225 deg F. Any thoughts? | ||
| Nobuell |
I was able to get to the garage and start the bike. It idles fine and did not cut out. The check engine light is not illuminated. I went into the diagnostic mode. I found 2 DTCs; Comm Error - U0001 and Fuel Pressure error - P0087. All of the display parameters match the manual specified values. The fuel pressure is 550 not running and 410 to 420 when idling. The fuel pump appears to be operating correctly. I will go over the connectors and grounds. I did recheck to fuel level. It does appear to be lower than I thought. Perhaps the lean angles were low enough to starve the fuel pump? It was a left hand turn when it first occurred. Regarding the Comm Error U0001, I am not sure what I can do there. There was no error display on the IC. Perhaps check to make sure the terminating resistor is in place and check the resistance? Any thoughts? | ||
| Stirz007 |
Recheck the engine and chassis grounds (total 4 locations). If CT gets above 225 (if I recall, somewhere around there), ignition will start to cut out until temps go back below the set point. I don't run fans, so on a hot day if grid time is long, it will creep into the 220 plus zone and it will rattle pretty good until I can get moving. You can try a different oil and/or water wetter - sometimes that helps drop temps 5-10 degrees. | ||
| Nobuell |
Stirz007, I use the old style Flexi-glass lowers that use the fans. I currently have propylene glycol in the radiators. I had that in there because winter cold weather and laziness to change it out. I think we'll switch back to Water/Water Wetter. The Autobahn north track that I was on is shorter but flowing. I tend to run the engine at higher revs more continually. Perhaps it was getting into the skip spark mode since it was pretty hot outside. I will check all of the ground points and check for loose connections. I will also dump the Propylene and go with water wetter. I just freshly changed the oil. I run Motul 300V 15W-50. I don't think much is to be gained by changing oil brands. Thank you for your help. | ||
| Nobuell |
I started checking out the bike and look what I found:  It wasn't the motor cutting out but the belt slipping on the front pulley due to 4" worth of teeth missing. It did start slipping (cutting out) after one of the harder braking areas of the track. Good thing it happened a couple turns before pit lane. It surly would have broke or tore more teeth off if I went another lap. Thats what I like about my 1125R, it was courteous enough to wait until the end of the track day before having a problem. If you look at the picture closely, you will see even the Michelin Man warning me of the problem.  I guess my wife is right about listening, at least I think that is what she said. I have a new belt in stock. I will get it installed before the next track day Monday after the Indy GP. I believe I will get the water wetter in anyway. Can't hurt to lower the temp down a bit. I can see a chain drive kit in my future. Anyone have one for sale? | ||
| Nobuell |
At another track day this past Monday. The bike is cutting out after all. It was not the drive belt teeth as original thought. That appears to be a coincidence. It runs fine for a few laps before it starts cutting out. It is like turning off the power for a second. Sometimes it will do it once, sometimes multiple times in a row. While at the track, I went through many of the electrical connections. I did find that the speed sensor wire insulation was melted due to contact with the exhaust header. I separated them and temporarily individually taped them. That made no deference. It idles fine and does not cut out. The check engine light is not illuminated. I went into the diagnostic mode. I found 2 DTCs; Comm Error - U0001 and Fuel Pressure error - P0087. All of the display parameters match the manual specified values. The fuel pressure is 550 not running and 410 to 420 when idling. The fuel pump appears to be operating correctly. Regarding the Comm Error U0001, I am not sure what I can do there. There was no error display on the IC. Perhaps check to make sure the terminating resistor is in place and check the resistance? Since I was on the track at speed, I did not see if I lost power to the IC. . I will start taking things apart in my shop. I am not sure where to go from here. It is setup for track so there is no ignition switch. Powered with a Toggle Switch. Some thoughts on what to check: 1. Fuel pressure sensor - Perhaps and intermittent failure 2. CPS - perhaps a intermittent failure once hot 3. Check all wires under the fairing looking for loose connections or broke wires. 4. Ignition relay - perhaps it fails intermediately under load I am open to suggestions. | ||
| Captjoe |
So are all those stitches coming apart normal for these belts? I'm asking because I just got a brand new one, took 2 months for HD to finally send it, and it looks much like that one... but no missing teeth though  I would've expected a much nicer finish on it. | ||
| Puddlepirate |
Following the electrical manual, mine was diagnosed as a bad ECM. I also had the Comm Error. Do you have the troubleshooting guide for that issue? I ended up getting the EBR ECM a couple weeks ago and it seemingly has fixed the problem. I chased my tail for a while on it before finally believing the manual and getting the ECM. | ||
| Sl33py |
Fuel Pressure loss? Looking up the P0087 error, there are some pages in the manual that may help?:  Then section 6.19 for Fuel Pressure Sensor error PT0087 troubleshooting: P1:  P2:  P3+4:  P5:  HTH! Rob | ||
| Two_seasons |
Are you running the stock ignition switch? You may have some trouble either on the backside of the switch (electrically) or maybe you are shorting out when turning through a specific point. Zac4mac had a problem with his harness coming up through the fairing stay. It was shorting out there. | ||
| Nobuell |
Intermittent problems are a pain. Hopefully I can get started on the investigation tonight. Stirz007 - you said there are 4 ground locations. I know the swing arm and by the triple tree. Where are the other two? Puddlepirate - you ended up replacing your ECM. What symptoms do you have. I do have the electrical diagnostic manual. Two seasons - I have no ignition switch. It is set up for the track. Thank you for suggestions so far. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Neck ground - notorious on the forum as cause of comm error and other maladies. Located on the front of the neck, just above bottom triple. (Most likely culprit) Engine ground - located on front cylinder, left side in a place particularly well suited to be a pain to get to. Motor rotate/removal required to get to that one. I had mine go down on a cool-down lap with no symptoms before. It just quit running, a brief 'com error' code flashed up, then it went to 'theft error'. I too went through the diagnostic manuals, checked everything and kept coming back to either replace IC, or replace ECU. (I now have a spare IC as part of the exercise in futility). When I finally got disgusted enough to drop the motor, sure enough ..... loose engine ground. A couple of turns with the torx driver and I was good to go, albeit pissed and out some coin I didn't need to spend. | ||
| Nobuell |
Stirz007, I did the valve shims 1.5 track days before the problem occurred. I do not remember a ground point on the front cylinder. Is that the ECM ground that I have seen mentioned in the wiring diagrams? You defiantly have me thinking about that one. I do not remember removing a ground connection on the motor when I lifted the frame. Do you have a picture per chance? | ||
| Rodrob |
It's the ground wire in the loom at the front that attaches to the frame at the steering neck. | ||
| Dennis_c |
figure 7-92 engine ground connection in the 08 service manual | ||
| Dennis_c |
 It is hard to see flash light and look up you cant see it from above (Message edited by dennis c on August 13, 2014) | ||
| Stirz007 |
No good photo handy, but engine harness ground is roughly here:  Photo courtesy JD | ||
| Nobuell |
Ah, I see. I did not remove the radiators when I lifted the frame. It appears to be behind them. I will check it out soon. I was stuck at work late so did not have a chance to start trouble shooting last night. As a matter of fact, I have not unloaded the bike yet from the trailer. Thank you for your help. I will report what I find. | ||
| Stirz007 |
No need to remove rads - just unbolt K-bracket to frame bolts (2) and keep engine/rads as a unit when you lift frame. Rads do not restrict access to the ground bolt identified - the problem is the frame is in the way until you drop/rotate motor. | ||
| Nobuell |
Stirz007 What a nice place to put a ground point. I did not mess with it when I had it apart. Do you think I can get to it by just rotating the engine and not remove the frame? How loose was your connection or did you have damaged ground wires? Could you see that they were loose before you rotated the motor? Did you have any other codes in addition to the Com Error. Thank you for the information thus far. | ||
| Nobuell |
One thought that I had regarding the Fuel Pressure error - P0087 that is shown. I did run out of gas at the end of last year. It surly would have reset by now if that was the case. Any thoughts. I do not want to chase a historical code. | ||
| Nobuell |
I was able to get the bike unloaded and into the garage. I noticed that the bike was running slightly rough between 2k and about 4k rpm and the exhaust had a slight pop to it. The fuel pressure was consistent with the specification. I stuck my finger and pushed on the ground wires at the bottom of the headset and I could easily move them. Tomorrow I will remove the fairing and steering damper and clean / tighten. Let's hope the problem is that simple. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Nobuell - my ground screw had backed out at least a full turn when I found it. I think rotation should get you access. Just look on the bottom of the loom as indicated on the photos and you should find it. Check the neck first though, much easier. | ||
| Two_seasons |
Great write-up so far guys. I'm learning, so keep posting  | ||
| Nobuell |
I spent the weekend going through the bike. I will put together a full report tonight. | ||
| Nobuell |
This past Friday evening I was able to get the bike started and let it idle until it was hitting 180 deg F. As it was warming up, I did notice that it was running rough below 5K rpm, it did hiccup a couple times around 5K rpm and there was slight popping when the motor was decelerating. Saturday morning I started pulling the bodywork, seat fairing , air filter plate etc. to gain access to electrical and fueling components. It should be noted that all parameters shown on the IC when in Diagnostic Mode were within specs. First thing, I installed new relay in the off chance that the ignition/fuel relays were lifting when hot. It made no difference. Next was verification of ground points. The battery was tight as was the cables. The cylinder head ground screw was tight (yes you can reach it with a long home made box end wrench). The steering head ground was another story. Since the bike is set up for track usage, I have an EBR Steering Stop Limiter installed. The limiter bolts to the stop lug using the ground screw. A slot in the back of the limiter engages the steering stop to keep it from rotating. Over time the limiter rotates slightly when engaging the lower clamp. This rotating eventually loosens the ground screw. There is the smoking gun I was looking for. Not only is the screw loose but also it is trying to ground through the limiter and then the frame. I removed the limiter (will now need to watch my thumbs) and installed a new screw with serrated and lock washers. I started the bike and let it warm up only to discover the roughness; occasional stutter and slight popping was not corrected. So much for the simple fixes. Next on to the second easiest checks. I pulled all electrical connections clean /inspect and look for broken or bare wires. Start the bike and no luck. Now it starts getting more difficult. Next I pulled both spark plugs. Both plugs were slightly loose. The plugs were torqued to spec when I did the valve clearance check not long ago. I am not sure why they were on the loose side but both plugs looked OK however, the rear had a bit of a glassy look whereas the front insulator had a slight tan color. I did resistance check on each coil. They both had similar resistance and exhibited no sign or arcing. I reinstalled the plugs and coils, start the bike and no change. Next I removed the EBR Race ECM and replaced it with a known functional OEM ECM. The bike ran worse. The symptoms were more pronounced and I had a number of codes flash. Most of the codes were as expected on a track bike; the BAS, Active Intake and so on. The code that stood out was the F-R AF Fuel System error. The rear was 110.5 and the front was 100.0. The higher value possible indicates a lean condition. Perhaps the rear cylinder was running lean. Interestingly, I noticed that the rear header pipes were getting very red and putting out a lot of heat when running. The front headers were not red or at least very slightly red. I my first post, I noted that the VSS had melted. I originally assumed that it was to close to the header, perhaps there was a lot of extra heat near the pipe. It should be noted that the trackside repaired VSS wire electrical tape insulation was also melted. I had it zip tied well away for the header. I reinstalled the EBR ECM and found that the F and R Adapt Fuel reading was 100.0 for each. I believe that the Race ECM will always show 100.0. I pulled out an old PC to try and verify the AF variance using TunerPro RT. This proved futile as the software would lock up every time I tried to play a recorded run. I fiddled with it for a couple hours and gave up. I suspect the 12-year old cheap laptop does not have the required HP. I need to get windows on my MacBook Pro for future use. At this point, I unplugged the O2 sensors as an experiment. The bike actually seemed to run better. At this point I suspected that the rear injector valve was malfunctioning and perhaps the O2 sensor was causing a leaner condition or incorrectly driving the ECM. I pulled the injector cables and did a quick resistance check on the solenoid. The Rear/Front Injectors indicated 12.2 / 12.0 ohms resistance respectively when hot or cold. I removed the injectors and soaked them in carburetor cleaner and Sea Foam. I energized each injector while running cleaner through. After reassembly and installation, I crossed my fingers and started the bike. It ran much better and actually sounded normal. Before the cleaning, if I held the throttle at a specific point the bike would rev up like normal but the RPM would tend to float up or down a couple hundred RPM. Now it stays at a very constant RPM. The roughness and popping are gone. The rear header was no longer glowing red. Ultimately, I think there were at least two issues. The loose ground more than likely caused some intermittent issue like is normal on all Buell’s. The injectors seems to be the primary issue. I am inclined to think that some junk made it through the fuel pump filter and partially blocked the injector. I suspect this because the bike was running fine at the track all day then all at once started acting up. I was also running low on fuel since it was the end of the day and I burned all that I had. I am not sure if that had anything to do with it but perhaps there is some crud floating around in the frame. End Result - Not known yet because I have not been able to actually ride the bike. I did order 2 new 09 fuel injector valves and a new Brembo rear caliper. I know, the caliper has nothing to do with the original problem but I did notice that OEM units did not appear to be releasing completely and a more fun mod that trouble shooting. Its only money! I checked with EBR for the injectors, but they do not stock them. They did tell me the 09 injectors would work fine with the EBR Race ECM. The injectors should be in on Thursday I plan to install the new injectors and new O2 sensors at the same time. I am also considering adding an inline fuel filter to help protect the new injectors. I will post the outcome. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
my belt and suspenders approach to the ground issue...go here: scroll down for pix and P/N http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/674577.html?1336678989 I've installed a Fuel filter from Pingel: http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp? key=7E7622113D4345F3ADF10F45442A1825 it is NOT for the average shade tree mechanic to try...you're messin with a thermal plastic fuel line... after cutting the line (gulp)I used a heat gun to soften the fuel line but before that a piece (1" long) of fuel inj approved rubber fuel hose was slipped over the end prior to heating...once the plastic line was semi soft the fuel filter was slipped in...the fuel hose was then slipped up and clamped with a miniature hose clamp. That completed the intake side of the filter...on the output side I peeled away the thermal plastic line from the quick disconnect fitting and used the approved rubber fuel line with clamps to complete the "circuit"...I insulated the fuel filter as it is too close to the exhaust to survive without it...been working for a couple of years now ( haven't set myself or the bike on fire)...be careful if you decide to attempt this. (Message edited by nuts4mc on August 19, 2014) | ||
| Nobuell |
Nuts4mc I never had a cold or hot starter problem however, I agree with your grounding issue assessment. The battery ground on the swing arm does not seem correct since the power must travel through the swing arm bearings. In the electric motor world, bearings are often insulated to assure power does not pass through them. I believe that I will add an additional secondary ground to the motor and frame. It certainly cannot hurt anything. I just purchased a Golan Peak Flow Fuel filter with a cleanable / replaceable stainless Steel 10 micron filter. It is similar in appearance to the filter you referenced. Regarding your installation technique, I am not following you on the inlet side of the filter. Did you use the rubber fuel line as a clamping surface after inserting the filter into the plastic line? Was it difficult removing the plastic line from the from the quick disconnect? I assume you added the rubber hose to allow disassembly of the filter? Thank you for your suggestions. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
yes...the rubber fuel line as a clamping surface after inserting the filter into the plastic line no...Was it difficult removing the plastic line from the from the quick disconnect...if you score the plastic line at the "barbs" of the QD...the plastic line can be "peeled" back reveling the QD "fitting" yes...you added the rubber hose to allow disassembly of the filter Hints/notes: a) plan the routing of the new filter and hose carefully...you need to access the clamps with a 1/4" drive ratchet...make sure the clamps you use have hex heads b) the O-rings on the QD (the discharge end of your plumbing job) are important to leak proof performance a little lube doesn't hurt. c) Ford (F series trucks) and Triumphs utilize a similar material for fuel line ... that's where I "learned" how to make "splices" d) Once you cut the line, try to "wick" out the fuel ( paper towel)so you don't start your self on fire with the heat gun. e) Insulation can be installed( slipped over fuel line) BEFORE the filter is installed...and BEFORE you re-connect the QD...proper planning promotes premium performance...good luck | ||
| Nobuell |
Nuts4mc Thank you for the clarification and great suggestions. I plan to install as you describe. Since the bike is setup for track with a modified sub-frame, there is plenty of room to install the filter and support it correctly. I will safety wire the clamps to preclude loosening also. |
