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Nobuell
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2014 - 01:32 pm: | 
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I have been working on this issue for 2 weeks. I have gone through every connection, checked for broken wires and cleaned grounds. I have trouble shot all sensors per the manual and have not found any issues. I replaced the injectors, Crank Position Sensor, O2 Sensors, Fuel Filter, Ignition Coils and installed a known good Race ECM. It still runs rough from just above idle to 6K RPM. Some times it hesitates and then catches and goes. Seems to get worse as it gets hotter.
I just noticed today that the fuel pump pressure at key on is in the low 400s when hot and does continuously drops. The pressure when running is within spec. When cold, the pump pressure is within spec at key on.
Is the pump failing? I did notice that the motor sometimes does not pop to life instantly like it always did before. |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2014 - 01:50 pm: |
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I noticed at the last rack day that bike ran fine when relatively cold for the first few laps. Once I started to push harder and the temperature goes up, the intermittent cut out would occur. Normally I run the fuel level below full. I decided to fill the bike completely with cold fuel for the next session. The bike ran fine until almost the end of the session before cutting out. I also checked the fuel pressure with key on and the pressure would only go up to 400 or so.
I assumed that I had have a bad fuel pump so I ordered a new pump from Highflow Fuel Sytems.
Last weekend I started prepping the bike to pull the pump assembly. I planed to pump the most of the gas out of the frame by using the bikes pump. I pulled the fuel line from the sensor and connected a hose to a storage container. I separated the fuel pump connector and I connected a 12V battery the pump power leads. The pump did not operate. I plugged the connector back together and turned the key on and blew the pump 15 pump fuse. Replaced the fuse and it blew again.
I assumed the pump finally died and used a vacuum pump to remove the gas. After removing the pump assembly, I disassembled and replaced the pump. Before installing the assembly, I checked the resistance between the pump leads at the connector to see what the winding resistance is. I found that it had a closed circuit instead of a higher winding type resistance. It appears that there is a short somewhere.
Next I unplugged the pump from the leads only to find that I still had a short. I carefully inspected the connectors on both ends for a short and could not find any issues in the connectors. I checked wire insulation damage but the wires were like new.
The only place the short could be located was in the bulkhead fitting and potted leads at the bottom of the pump body. I decided to break out the dremel and started excavating the epoxy potting material. I figured I would need to get a new pump anyway so why not dig in. It was impossible to remove the epoxy without cutting wires were they entered pot housing. I choose to sacrifice the two leads for the fuel sensor to allow reaching and cleaning out the epoxy around the pump leads.
I was able to clean the epoxy away for the the pump leads and have approximately 1/2" exposed. I cannot dig in any further to reach the solder joints. I checked the leads for a short and all was ok. I think I may have cut out the shorted area when initially removing the potting material.
Theoretically, I can solder the pump leads together and re-pot like original. There is one catch, The fuel level wires cannot be re-connected without further excavation. I am concerned that further digging will damage the fuel pump wires.
Do I need to connect the fuel level wires? The bike is only used for the track so the low level indicator is not needed. As a matter of fact, I have not seen the low light come on for some time.
I am running an EBR race ECM. Will there be a problem with eliminating the level sensor? I can save $300.00 by fixing the existing pump.
What are the thoughts out there?
Thanks for your help. |
Dennis_c
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2014 - 11:05 pm: |
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I have 2 fuel level sensor go bad one is bad right now still runs good. |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2014 - 12:20 am: |
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I removed the level sensor leads and re- potted. Sounds good. Sunday I should get the pump reinstalled. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2014 - 08:37 am: |
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This thread rocks. Sorry about your issue(s) with your track bike, but your write up has been instructive!
Waiting for your update today. |
Nuts4mc
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2014 - 09:47 am: |
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there was a thread about fixing the sensor on the pump assy....here's link that references Al and American Sport Bike...might want to give him a call on Monday (before you put the pump back in!)
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/746468.html
running out of gas at ( or on) the track sux |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2014 - 10:13 am: |
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The sensor is not a problem. I had to eliminate the sensor leads that go through the pump housing.
I am getting ready to finish the pump assembly and install. I will send some pick soon. |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2014 - 10:26 am: |
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Last night I soldered the pump leads to the 1/2" existing leads. That was much more difficult than I thought since it was below the surface of the housing. Finally after multiple attempts, I soldered the first lead then realized that I forgot to slide the shrink wrap into place. Removed he solder joint and reattached. The other lead was a bit longer so it went a little easier.
I slid the heat shrink over the solder joint and applied the heat to shrink.
Next, I mixed a large batch of JB WELD and pushed it into the housing. I then pushed the wires down into the epoxy. I let it set up for an hour. I mixed another batch and filled the rest of the housing.
I left it to set up over night. |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 06:13 pm: |
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The replacement pump that I utilized did not work correctly. The pressure was much lower than specified and jumped all over the place. I am not sure if the soldered wires are a problem or if the pump is not correct for this application. Based on the pressure I think that it may be for an XT model.
I called Al at American Sport Bike and he sent me a pump posthaste (great service as always). I installed the pump and reconnected all of the wiring. Went to turn on the power switch and it was already on. I forgot to turn it off when last trouble shooting things. Add a dead Shorai Battery to the list purchased parts relating to this problem. I temporarily connected a spare and viola, the bike started right up. Fuel pressure looked good. Let it run and get good and hot. Sounded great.
Last Saturday I went to Autobahn for the first track day since the pump replacement. First session, bike ran great. Second session, the cutting out resumed. I was not a happy camper. While talking with my wife about the problem, I told her it was just like somebody is hitting the kill switch. Then it hit me, what would act like a kill switch? I zip tied the start/stop switch cable to the handle bar to make sure there was no tension at the housing causing a short, I reinspected and added additional zip ties to the wire bundles coming from the ECM, I disconnected the speed shifter and added zip ties to support the loose connectors.
Went out during the next session. No problem. The bike ran great. I now assumed that one of the three areas filled with was the problem. So I figured I would finish the day and look at the three more closely at my shop.
I went out for the next session and made two laps before the cutting out started again. The bike was a lot hotter since I regained confidence at started pushing the bike also the day was getting warmer. This time however, the cutting out became much worse and continuous. While exiting the track I wiggled the wires going to the kill switch with no change. When I got back to the pits, I started thinking that it became worse when it became hotter. Of the remaining two track fixes, where is the heat the highest? The ECM location is warm but not all that hot, The speed shifter wires run into the area under the front pulley cover. That area get hot with the belly pan and fairings. I started tracing the wires from the speed shifter switch back towards the connection under the cover.
Let us back up to the day that I installed the speed shifter. The two speed shifter wires are required to connect to the existing side stand switch connector. Since the OEM connectors do not match the speed shifter connectors, I cut the OEM connectors and soldered the speed shifter wires to the existing side stand switch wires. I fashioned a Western Union wire connection (do any of the young readers remember those?) and soldered the joint. I used heat shrink insulation on each wire joint and used a larger shrink to cover the two wire joints.
Back at the track - As I was tracing back the speed shifter wires, I discovered that the heat shrink connection was very hot and flimsy. I grabbed a small side cutter at started slicing the heat shrink. The heat actually turned the separate wires into a single mass of soft rubber. The two solder joints had migrated next to each other through the soft rubber. When it became hot enough and the vibrations and possible track roughness were just right, the wires made contact and killed the engine just like a kill switch. Apparently, when I re-zip tied the wires, I must have moved them into a functional position then eventually they would make contact. Fortunately the intermittent condition became constant making it easier to resolve. Rode the rest of the day with no cutting out issues. The bike actually ran better than I can remember. The original pump was under pressure so perhaps the new pump and all of the new sensors helped in that area.
Thinking back, it was at this same track when the problem first started. It was the end of the day, the ambient temperatures were high and the bike was very hot after some fast laps. It started cutting out a bit right after a hard braking section in a bumpy area of the track.
It all makes sense now!
Lessons learned:
Be very careful when using heat shrink, especially in hot areas
It may be best to not install heat shrink over a bundle of wires that have shrink on them, especially in hot areas
This became one very expensive bad connection
Oh well, hindsight is 20-20.
Did I mention that I hate intermittent problems?
I will have a spare EBR ECM for a Barker Exhaust for sale soon, possibly some stick coils and some assorted sensors! Let me know if there is interest.} |
Nuts4mc
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 06:23 pm: |
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...back in my aerospace days we specified this stuff from teflon (PTFE):
http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-shrink-tubing/=tytv1 o
...gotta have an industrial heat gun to shrink it...glad to hear you found and fixed the problem |
Nobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - 09:34 pm: |
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Good idea, I will pick some up. It was definitely a slap your forehead moment. |
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