| Author | Message | ||
     Brokengq |
Alright guys, I'm sure I'm getting annoying by now, but please bear with me for one more post/thread. I wanted to go ahead and try and post everything I've tested and tried in one place, to make everything easier and not try to reference previous threads. As I'm sure a lot of you know, I'm having some serious starting issues. These issues tend to happen when the bike is hot, however it only starts cold once a day, where it probably starts 10-15 times while warm or hot. When it happens I get a nice clunky sound from the starter (usually coupled with a system voltage error), and the bike doesn't start. I would say that I get 4 good starts for every 1 bad start. I have tested: Stator: checked out good @ ~39VAC on all phases, and good resistance from phase-to-phase and phase-to-ground. Battery: Brand new HD battery, holding 12.85VDC with systems off, dropping to 9.6VDC on start. Wiring faults: The classic Buell "wiggle test" on the IC, ignition switch, and main harness while running, no changes. Hooked a test light to the negative post on my battery while it was disconnected. Lit up until I pulled the battery fuse, then it went out. Replaced battery fuse, test light lit, pulled ignition switch fuse, started flickering VERY slightly. No changes in the light with any other fuse pulled. I found a video of a CR making a very similar sound here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=HWoOLUOpSjM He said it was due to a stripped/chipped starter gear, and once it was replaced the issues were gone. And here is my bike trying to start (mine starts a little faster, listen to the sound the starter makes before it fires). This is a very minor showcase of the problem. It's usually much worse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11jbocwGJII This, however, is what my starter gear looks like.  Now I don't see a problem with this. All of the teeth look like this all the way around. There are a few burrs that will snag your finger on a couple of them, but nothing major. I did bench test it while it was off. Buell manual says that the current flow of the starter should be from 25-40 amps. Cold it was 32 amps. After testing it a few times to warm it up it dropped to 27.8 amps. Granted this was just hot to the touch. I could still hold the starter without being uncomfortable. When I pulled the starter I did find some small metal shavings on it, exactly like the ones I found in my oil screen when I pulled it last week. These pieces are a little larger than a pinhole, and very thin. I found around 40 in total between my filter and screen. Oil Screen  Now with the starter off I stuck my finger in the case and inspected the starter gear. It is in perfect condition. I spun it and had no rattling or noise come from it. It locks as soon as you trying to spin it in the starting direction, so (I'm thinking/hoping) that rules out the sprag clutch. A few other noteworthy observations. My fuel pump makes a sound I've never heard on another R/CR. It turns over like normal when you turn the key, but has a little grind to it at the end. I'm also only holding ~40 KPA (about 6 psi) when the bike is off and hot. When running I am at ~425 KPA (~60 PSI). Also, its been a long time since my bike did the whole "beep and whir" when it has just been shut down. One other one, my bike occasionally shuts down at/around idle speeds when you tap the throttle or put it under a load. It is very occasional, and I think it may be due to the system voltage being low after a start up. It is usually within 5 minutes of starting the bike. If the bike has been running for a while it never happens. I do have a new starter on the way (thank you Shawns), hopefully it will be here next week and I can try it out. Sorry for the length guys. I'm at the point where I'm completely lost. | ||
| Stevel |
At times like this, when nothing else seems to make sense, disassembly is the only route to follow. If the disassembly does nothing else, it will give you confidence of what it is not. You appear very reluctant to do this. Only you know why. My guess is that you have a faulty Sprague. They are very poorly oiled in the current design and it takes only 15 minutes or less to have it in your hand. Doing this will allow you to inspect the whole starter gear train in detail. First remove the alternator case screws, then the rotor nut with air wrench. The rotor will then slide of the crank spline. Six screws hold the Sprague and drive gear to the rotor. Let us know what you find. | ||
| Shawns |
No worries. Hope it resolves you issue. Keep us in the loop. | ||
| Brokengq |
Stevel, I agree with you, I want to disassemble the starter assembly, but, you are right, I am hesitant. I do not have access to the proper tools for the job. I am not worried about the difficulty of the job. It seems simple. Disassembly seems easy. But I do not have access to a crank locking tool. I would have to rent one from here. Again, no problem, but I do not have access to a 300 ft-lbs torque either. Nor do I have the correct loctite compound. I'm afraid if I disassemble down that far it may be extremely difficult to get it all back together due to this lack of tools. I'm posting again to see if there is anything else I can do before I have no other choice. I appreciate it Stevel, and I expect I will be disassembling the alternator case tomorrow. | ||
| Oldog |
I would swap starters before I tore in to the engine, lock tite 272 is not too expensive, harbor freight sells the tools at reasonable prices ( not the crank lock ) some things get my attention, 1 the low fuel pressure for re-start 2 burrs and debris on the pinion gear of the starter makes me wonder if the part is soft vs the gear | ||
| Stevel |
I hope you understand that you do not need the crank locking tool for this task. In fact, I'm not comfortable using a torque wrench exerting 300 ft/lbs on a 6mm pin. I have the tool, but do not use it for that purpose. I use a 3/4" drive air wrench for both removal and installation, as it is less stressful to the motor and tool. | ||
| Brokengq |
I only have access to a 1/2" air wrench. I think my plan is going to be: Replace the starter when it gets here on Thursday, Test bike, Take bike to service center to check fuel pressure/pump condition, Remove/inspect sprag (replace if needed), Partially reassemble and haul to service center to get nut retorqued, Finish reassembly. Oldog if you happen to be reading, would you be available at all in the next two weeks? Chances are that grinding sound the fuel pump is making means its on its last legs, and I do not have the equipment to replace it. Also, if you don't mind lending your expertise on checking/replacing the sprag I wouldn't mind the help.  | ||
| Mhpalin |
Ihave rebuilt my fuel pump with this unit http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Intank-Fuel-Pump-for-Bu ell-1125-1125R-1125CR-2008-2009-/271223281251?pt=M otorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f262ad663&v xp=mtr&_uhb=1 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/715938.html?1372693300 Hope this helps  Mike | ||
| Brokengq |
Thanks Mike. Was the retrofit difficult? | ||
| Oldog |
Chris I am out next weekend but available after, I have most of the tools and a table stand If you want to make a weekend of it, I can put you up The fuel pump is not an issue and I have access to snap ring pliers for the godzilla ring in the frame, I don't have the locking tool ( need to get one some time ) you need the gasket and other items if the sprag is to be pulled and examined / replaced. I have a dealer in the area but parts are always an issue ( have to order ) get the orings from your dealer or AL at American Sport Bike as I think he has them. I have had the pump out in my hand with 1313 when we did his sender ( LFL ) its a bit of a mess but not huge. I missed the inter-engine rotor thing with 1313 so I may not be of any extra help with the clutch / rotor I would hesitate to use air impact on the alternator rotor (magnets / glue) the locking tool and the mega torque wrench are the published method | ||
| Brokengq |
The fuel pump may be all we look at. I spoke to the local stealership and they are willing to take off my rotor nut and put it back on for a very small charge. I just have to take off the cover and trailer it to them. Chances are I can get a second opinion on the sprag while I am there. Regardless I think I am going to order a fuel pump this weekend. Most likely order the retrofit kit that Mike suggested. Is there a way to get up with you other than here? | ||
| Oldog |
I recently updated my e-mail addy reach me thru the pm function on the board I will reply cover the open engine well for the trailer trip to the dealer dirt does bad things ... Btw you remove the swing arm to get to the pump... | ||
| Brokengq |
I know I need to remove the swing arm. That's what I'm not equipped for, as was hoping to get some help with. I will cover the open engine well. I will probably just take the cover off when I reach the dealer. | ||
| Mhpalin |
It was a easy job as long as you have the right size snap ring pliers Mike | ||
| Brokengq |
Thanks Mike. I'm making a big order tomorrow most likely. 36ml bottle of 272, a rotor nut, the fuel pump kit you mentioned (maybe 2 at that price, get em while its good), and the fuel pump o rings. All in all probably around $100 ballpark for everything. If I have to get a sprag new castle wants about $200 for them and I think I saw them for $176 on surdyke. Stevel has me convinced its a pretty simple job. With the shop willing to pull the rotor nut and replace it for me, it just makes it that much easier. | ||
| Brokengq |
Oldog, I sent you a PM. If you get the chance let me know. | ||
| Mrbaz |
Sounds like the whole problem is the starter just getting weak when it's hot. I seen this many other times. The sprag (starter clutch) I think is working correctly since it turns one way & locks up the other when you stick your finger in. So basically the starter engages but the starter motor just doesn't have the balls to turn the engine over. I say if the starter is on it's way out, just want for it and put in a new one so see if that fixes the problem. If it doesn't, then start looking further. | ||
| Brokengq |
I hope so. Sounds like a good plan to me. | ||
| Firemanjim |
IIRC I got the fuel pump out without removing arm, just shock bolt and such--- | ||
| Brokengq |
Back to sprag thoughts. (I know Stevel, just pull it and be done). I'm working on pulling it. I pulled the stator cover the other day, and ordered a new gasket for it. I did a quick look around when I pulled it, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I got the gasket in and decided to reassemble to try the new starter. As I was scraping the old gasket I noticed something small and shiny on the rotor nut. I wiped it off and looked at it. Its more of that epoxy like stuff. So I did a close look at my stator. Nothing wrong with it. I looked in the bottom of the stator cover and found more of that epoxy like stuff and some ferrous metal flakes, all of which I've been finding in my oil. Going to try and pull the rotor nut this weekend. I'm really backed up with work. | ||
| Brokengq |
Hey guys, I worked all afternoon and I'm stuck. Cover is off and handily zip-tied out of the way with slack in the stator wires. Rotor nut is off and the 6 bolts that hold the sprag on are loose. Now...that damn rotor will NOT come off. I'm trying not to use conventional methods to get it off (I.e. pry bar) I know damaging that rotor is a bad idea. So how have y'all gotten it off in the past? I know there are tools I can buy to do it, but I'm trying to avoid that if possible. Thanks. | ||
| Shawns |
You can use a pry bar. My Mac prybar came wit a protective rubber boot(I guess for shipping). You can try plastic panel tools. I would also try and heat it up by the spline, locktite may be preventing it from coming loose. Did you get the starter? | ||
| Brokengq |
Yeah I got the starter. Haven't mounted it yet. Wanted to look at the sprag first. Figured I'd rule it out while waiting on the starter. Just been hung up with work. | ||
| Brokengq |
More news gentlemen. Sprag is out, and showing serious signs of wear. Couple of the bearing "barrels" have some flat spots, couple nice size metal chunks are holding on to the sprag by oil. I think I caught it just in the knick of time. It also decided to wear a nice highway into the housing. Not deep, but its there. Probably the source of the metal in my oil. Everything is going to get swapped, then I'm going to do a nice oil flush and try and clean it out. ***Edit*** Ok just to confirm. Trying to order parts from new castle today. Can someone validate these part numbers? Sprag Clutch y0536.1am Sprag Housing y0537.1am Rotor nut cd0032.1ama I think that's all I'm going to need. I'm going to order some loctite 272 from amazon. (Message edited by brokenGQ on May 19, 2014) | ||
| Dennis_c |
check the gear that the sprag runs on that was chewed up to on mine but my sprag was worse than yours | ||
| Brokengq |
The sprag housing was toast if that's what you mean. The piece that is bolted to the back of the rotor. | ||
| Stevel |
This is a design fault. That spague requires a continuous supply of oil, as those rollers are in constant contact with the race. It is now only getting vapor oiling from the waste oil exiting the main bearing. I have thought about a good fix and the best I have come up with is using the stator mod by EBR AND the air cooling mod to the magnet (drilled holes). In that way, the cooling oil will be slung on to the outside face of the Sprague where there is the largest opening in the roller cage of the Sprague. | ||
| Brokengq |
Alright, here's the plan. Chime in and let me know how you feel Parts come in Friday, reassemble, and trailer to dealer to get the rotor nut torqued "properly". Finish reassembly, and put in fresh oil. Run 5-10 miles then drain oil and replace filter to remove any possible flakes remaining in the oil. Refill with oil and ride. Few questions before I start though. Is there anything against using some 272 on the sprag bolts? Also what is the torque for those? I can't find it in the manual. Is anyone against using some assembly lubricant (like main bearing grease) on the sprag? I'm thinking that might extend the life a little. Might be a stupid question. Thanks guys. | ||
| Oldog |
The sprague is oil lubricated assembly lube unless its called for may cause issues, stick with engine oil 272 is harder to break and you may wind up having removal issues and replacing the bolts use the correct material The people who designed that engine are competent engineers and they specified the materials to use for a reason. second guessing the engineers may cause you some grief YMMV |
