| Author | Message | ||
     Tbowdre |
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/22/2014-erik-bue ll-racing-1190rx-first-look-review-photos/ They start off pretty badly saying THREE years after the termination of BUELL but follow with a semi quote about an RX putting down better numbers than a panigale. Then some pretty awesome tech information about the "swirl" port intake. Man I hope the road tests go better than the 1125R roll out | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
Now that was a good article! So excited to see the road tests! Jake | ||
| Longbeard |
Guys I work with who know very little about Buells were impressed with its debut and liked the bike. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Matching a Panigale's peak power and trumping it in the midrange will go a long way towards helping justify the Ducati-esque pricing of the new EBR bikes. Thumbs up! | ||
| Kesnei |
The only problem is that they just say a Panigale 1199, the S and the R are definitely different animals. The base model is 'old'. A win is a win though. | ||
| Crowley |
It's interesting that they say the Panigale lacks the traditional mid range of a Duc, because that's what I found when I rode one back to back against my 1198. All the power seemed to be top endy. However, I had to completely replace the 1198 suspension with KTech DDS fork cartriges and rear shock to get it to go around corners - and that added considerably to the price of the bike (nearly 3k GBP!) I love the RX and hope Erik does well with it  | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
If I recall correctly, the Panigale S got some lightened engine internals that allow it to spin a little higher (11K instead of 10.5K, I think), which allowed it to have a bit shorter gearing and hit the same top speed. I don't recall there being a significant improvement in power, either up top or in the midrange, as a result of the lightened internals. A few hp, maybe? | ||
| Longbeard |
I thought Ducati made the engine to perform more on the top then the middle? Seems like thats what I got out of the Cycle World mag article I read when they were comparing it to the BMW. Personally the Ducati looks great but unless you are all torso the bars are a loooong reach. I was laying on the tank and literally couldnt straighten up. I am short though. I also read another article in another mag that slips my mind and the test riders prefered the ZX10 on the track to the Panigale. I like the EBR. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
I’ve read many reviews of the 1199 Panigale by itself, or in comparison to its peers (S1000RR, F4, RSV4, and EBR 1190RS). I’m actually thinking of getting one until the RX was announced! All of these reviews rave about the 1199 motor. It does have a bit of a midrange dip, but it makes up for it at the top (per the reviews). But when it comes to outright power and control the BMW S1000RR is the bike to beat. When it comes to rider enjoyment and confidence, the RSV4R appears to be the bike. The 1199 Panigale is generally praised, including its user friendliness and street comfort (yes comfort in a Ducati) but it’s peers beat it in other areas. The EBR 1190RS is also generally praised for its amazing handling but it does NOT have the power of its peers, and it still has some low RPM fueling issues. Based on these results, the EBR 1190RX, which is very similar to the RS, needs to solve several issues that kept the RS up top: The EBR-RX needs to have perfect or near perfect throttle response…none of that herky jerkiness that afflicts so many previous bikes. Today’s liter class+ and other current machines have this part perfected already. It also needs to have great Traction Control and ABS. When you have that much power on tap a great TC elevates the bike to the next level of control. Today’s modern ABS adds a level of braking ability than bikes without can’t match. The rider interface of the electronics also needs to be better or at least as good as the best (Aprilia). Nice to have TC but if it’s too complicated to access quickly, it will fail against better company. I also hope it has a quick shifter that works well and not just at the track. Overall, the bikes that win these comparisons are the ones that has it all—big power, control, great electronic rider interface, at least very good street manners, and of course the character that always wins the hearts of testers. Simply being good at one or two things is no longer enough when pitted against the big hitters. Not that any of the 1199 Panigale’s peers are bad. They’re all excellent bikes, although some have a few quirks, which is what keeps them from being rated high. In any case you just can’t go wrong with any of them. In the end, those who must have a Ducati and are convinced they need an Italian bike to fit their image will get a Ducati or Aprilia no matter what. And those who are Buell fans will buy the EBR 1190RX. Those who actually buy these machines based on pure logic, get a CBR1000RR! LOL! | ||
| Longbeard |
I think all youre gonna get is 21 levels of TC. I agree though, ABS and shift assist are really going to be the norm. | ||
| Ridenusa4l |
I'm sure that EBR is working on an ABS option, but I'd be surprised if the ZTL wasnt more difficult to manufacture ABS for; I have no doubt that a quick shifter will at the very least be made optional. The only fault i can see for the TC as of this point is that it looks like you can't adjust it through the handlebars and must toggle through the settings on the gauge cluster; that seems like it could be quite cumbersome and there is no word if you can do it on the fly or not yet...that I could find. these are all speculation from pictures and reason and regardless of that....I LOVE the RX, just wish there was a White Version lol Jake | ||
| Longbeard |
I dont think any of the bikes in this price range have TC you can adjust on the fly. I think you have to gete up in the $23,000 + range for that kind of luxury. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
I think all of them have to stop b4 TC can toggle through. Even the Ducati. The testers generally complained about how easy or tricky it is to toggle through. They all prefer adjustments that were easy to understand and get to, which the Aprilia seems to have. | ||
| Crowley |
The TC on my 1198 is quite easy to set, and works very well, but it does require some toggling through menus. If it was my only bike, (X1 is my bike of choice if going out on my own) I'd probably remember hope to do it more readily. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Traction control, without ABS, is IMHO a good first step for a 185 HP all out sportbike. When the AX comes out, it should have ABS right out the door I think... | ||
| Jdugger |
I know lots of riders that use TC. The verdict on ABS isn't so positive around the guys I ride with. It's been known to fail on the BMW and cause crashes -- brakes just simply were not there. | ||
| Trojan |
It's been known to fail on the BMW and cause crashes -- brakes just simply were not there. That is a bit like saying that my Grandmother smoked 40 cigarretts a day until she was 95, so they must be good for you! Most crashes blamed on ABS actually turn out to be rider error and ham fisted riding rather than an actual traceable fault in the ABS system. If BMW ABS was causing accidents you can bet your bottom dollar that it would be widely publicised. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Like the BMW 650 fork casting failures that made the national news? | ||
| Jdugger |
> Most crashes blamed on ABS actually turn out to be rider error and ham fisted riding I appreciate that, however in this case it was a rider with an AMA superbike license, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. | ||
| Georgehitch17 |
I know a guy who raced a S1000RR in AMA and said they electronics were junk! and I think he wrecked the bike twice due to ABS and TC. | ||
| Hootowl |
Don't people who race motorcycles for a living turn ABS off anyway? | ||
| Jdugger |
The guys that I know that have bikes with ABS and TC options either use the TC or upgrade to Bazaaz, but remove the ABS stuff entirely. Track/race guys, not street. I get the point of ABS for street. | ||
| Sprintst |
Rogue_biker - you state Overall, the bikes that win these comparisons are the ones that has it all—big power, control, great electronic rider interface It also needs to have great Traction Control and ABS. Those who actually buy these machines based on pure logic, get a CBR1000RR! LOL! You do realize your choice, the CBR1000RR is down on power, and doesn't have TC, yet you state it's the winning choice?? Ridenusa4l - ABS for the ZTL shouldn't be hard, just add a small ring (about 8" diameter) at the hub. They could use existing Bosche parts that are used on other bikes. Or notch the rotor and mount a sensor on the caliper (Message edited by sprintst on November 07, 2013) | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
The CBR being down on power was the "literal" winner in the massive 2012 Cycle World Superbike test (1190RS's first mag appearance too), they ran all the 16K and below bikes- the CBR beat the S1000RR too. So he has a point. And also the general point that that's why the Japanese have owned the sportbike market for twenty years, they're just as good, if not better, for way less money. At least until recently. But traditionally nobody could justify the cost of a 999R when a gixxer would eat it's lunch for 12K. At least you get stonking performance for the extra money now, but you know what I mean. The ZTL doesn't do ANYTHING like a "normal" motorcycle brake system does, so yeah, I would think would be more difficult to set up ABS. Maybe not ring hardware and whatnot, but as Jdugger has pointed out, the caliper has so much flex/deflection, it would be hard to get the programming right. I would think the actuator's thousands of piston strokes "bouncing" off the caliper wall deflection would be an issue. Remember, the ZTL has been in production for ten years now, and the current iteration is literally the first one that hasn't been widely panned as weak or wonkey in some way. Even Brembo experimented with a perimeter mounted rotor system and scrapped the idea beause they couldn't make it work to their standards. If Brembo can't do it..... If it took Erik over ten years just to get it up to par, it's not unreasonable to think that automating it is going to take some time. As far as the general discussion, I think the moto-press in general has been pretty positive. It's the douchebag haters in the comments sections who are negative. The true test will come this summer with the head to head testing- bring it on! | ||
| Jdugger |
Knowing Erik's penchant for making a single part do many things, I wouldn't be surprised to see the fins on the current rotor become notched as the source of sensor input to an ABS system. The way the EBR caliper mounts, the inside edge of the rotor would be easy to use, and the optical sensor could be in the caliper itself. I have been experimenting with caliper deflection here in the shop, and I'm considering using M10 bolts to hold the clam-shells together instead of M8, and possibly using a thread insert so I can safely up the clamp torque to 35-ish ft lbs instead of the 18-20 the existing M8 flange head bolts use. I'm having an engineer friend look into it and run some numbers for me to give me an idea of what outcome to expect before I put my caliper on the drill press! Some of this is honestly a very masturabatory excercise. Sure, I might reduce deflection from 5-7 thous down tow 3-4. Measurable outcome! Woot! But will a hack of a rider like me really feel that in the lever? | ||
| Sprintst |
I would actually miss the belt drive, but I certainly understand why EBR switched to chain That said, I don't really understand why they didn't just cave and go with a standard dual disk setup. I like my ZTL, but the air scoop looks kludgey | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Yeh I prefer dual disk as well. Much better braking in my opinion. Looks better too. The ZTL just seems to be a bit of oddity to me. I also would rather have the belt drive on the SX. The chain is great for the track but the SX is more for street riding to me. | ||
| Tbowdre |
The only time I really notice the ZTL versus a duel disc set up is when checking my tires air pressure. Major PITA with duel discs in the way. I prefer a belt as well. Yes changing sprockets for altered gearing is nice but man chains seem so high maintenance and messy compared to a belt | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Yes indeed once you go belt you never go....ummm chain? | ||
| Jdugger |
> Yes indeed once you go belt you never go....ummm chain? Boy, I have really changed (chained?) my tune on this. I was once a gigantic belt fanboi. They are just too compromising without the upside for anything but basic street cruisers. Can't adjust gearing, wheelbase, they aren't really any lighter as a system, and on and on. Other than not needing lube (they do have to be cleaned!) I just don't see the upside anymore. I think it will be interesting to see what is done with the brake in World Superbike. I'm not sure the single-rotor is up to the task just from a heat management standpoint at that level of rider. At the club race level, it's fine, especially now with the upgrades from the RR/RS programs. |
