| Author | Message | ||
     Sir_wadsalot |
I've done a few track days but it's been five years. I'm looking for track day advice specific to the 1125. God knows I don't want to crash it.... I've been on it for one season now but it still feels a bit wierd. I love it, but I don't think I'll trust it until I've ridden it in anger. It's bone stock and I don't like the stock front brake. I won't be able to get the EBR rotor on it before I do a track day. I know EBC sintered pads made a huge difference on my SV1K.....also, it seems like It wants a lot of rear brake. I never used to use the rear, it was always off the ground. Not on this thing. What say you? I've also been toying with raising the front end on the forks a few mm. The old 1125R DSB had some kind of fork shims listed (in the race parts list)to relax the rake & trail figures and make them less twitchey. Common practice or a no-no? I lowered the front on the SV and it was perfect, but y'all would know the 1125 better than I do. Any suggestions? | ||
| Jdugger |
New tires. In your previous post you mentioned still having the original equipment... that's insane. New tires. Don't spend a time on anything else until you have new tires. Raising the front end (less tube showing above the triple) is a common geometry change, and I can recommend it if you go with a Michelin tire because of the higher, more angled rear end. Somewhere around 7-9mm showing above the OEM triple would be a starting point. The DSB-spec machines has front end collets that changed the rake angle. That's a whole new animal... don't worry about that just yet. | ||
| Chameleon |
Use the rear brake; it's up to 30% of your stopping power! Also, your front stock rotor will probably become warped after a track day. I went through 2 of them just riding on the street. You'll definitely need the EBR rotor afterward. Just take it easy; no reason to wreck. It's not like you're being paid to compete. My first trackday, I rode to the track and my wife drove her car to watch and, worst-case scenario, save me an ambulance and/or taxi bill. I took it pretty easy because it was intermittently raining and I didn't want to wad my shit which would defeat the purpose of having fun. I succeeded in all my goals, including riding the bike home. 3 other riders crashed that day, including one guy on a new Ducati.    Edit: Moved pictures to a vertical format (Message edited by Froggy on June 20, 2013) | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
Collets, that's it. Usually you lower a bike to make it turn in sharper, figured I would feel you guys out before I started fiddling more. As I said, I've done track days before, of course tires are a must! I bought the 1125 with 2000 miles on it last summer, the front Corsa has just worn down to properly slutty levels to necessitate a change. Hopefully in the next week or two here, as I would like to catch Summit Point in July if I can. I prefer VIR but it's a lot longer drive from Manassas than it was from Farmville! Funds and mileage concerns have dictated the "normal" Rossos, so I'll be taking it easy. Err...track easy, I guess. With almost a five year break that's not a bad idea anyhow. I was playing with Ye olde' SV1K last weekend and the Corsa 3's on it looked soooo nice, but no way I'm putting 5 year old trackslut tires on the sex machine. I pretty much hate NOVA....in southern VA I turned out of my driveway onto a killer road, connected to hundreds of miles of killer backroads in the middle of NOWHERE. Up here there's lots of awesome traffic and commuting. Lots of towing to get the bike out to the nicer roads, and sightseeing with my girl. I need track time. @Chameleon- I've never used the rear brake on a bike, much less at the track, but the Buell seems to like it, and I already need the damned EBR rotor, I can't stand the stocker! I was always "stuff half field on the brakes" guy, rear off the grund a few mm....not "trusting" the front brake enough to use it like a hammer and finessing the rear as much as I do now is a big style change for me. Any of you guys plan on runnign Summit or VIR this year? Maybe NJMP? (Message edited by sir_wadsalot on June 19, 2013) | ||
| Jdugger |
> Use the rear brake; it's up to 30% of your stopping power! I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with almost all of the advice in your post. The rear brake is essentially useless at slowing a short wheelbase motorcycle like the 1125r when the front brake is being used properly. At very best, the rear brake only provides a single-digit percentage advantage in total stopping distances, and realistically just makes the bike more unstable and difficult to control at maximum braking potential. Now, that's not to say the rear brake isn't tremendously useful for things like wheelie control, setting the suspension, bringing the rear around on corner entry (although I think the front/clutch does that better, too) slow speed maneuvers in the pits, etc., but it's simply not for slowing the bike. The front does that, and whoever told you that 30% of the stopping power comes from the rear rides a heavy cruiser, not a sportbike. > Also, your front stock rotor will probably become warped after a track day. > I went through 2 of them just riding on the street. I doubt it. Highly doubt it. Looking at your pictures, the issue you are suffering from is deposits on the rotor from not using the brakes hard enough, not the other way around. In 70,000+ miles in the seat of one of these things, and probably 30,000+ track miles, I have *never* seen a warped rotor. I've seen them have deposit issues, I've seen them have grip issues from wear, I've seen them need replacement for all kinds of reasons but NOT warping. I've seen the whole system fail from heat overload, but the disc itself was not warped. > You'll definitely need the EBR rotor afterward. A level-1 rider on street tires doing their first track day could get by with some 100-grit sandpaper. The EBR rotor and mounting kit is vastly superior to OEM, there's no doubt, but I teach on an OEM wheel and rotor/mount kit all the time and I've got 10+ track days on it without issue. Where I get in trouble is when we do a mock race for our race license class and I participate as an instructor in that -- it overheats and I lose braking power. The EBR parts start becoming a requirement as the rider progresses into level-2 and beyond and really works the brakes, IMHO. My advice remains: 1. Go buy some new tires. 2. Go have fun. | ||
| Chameleon |
I bow to Jdugger's superior knowledge and experience. I've only ridden 64,000 miles on the street and maybe 50 on the track. Clearly I don't know what the •••• I'm talking about. Have a nice day. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
I raced two seasons on the stock front rotor, no issues. I still have one on my rain wheels. Only reason I went to the EBR rotor is because I bought a set of bare wheels and it's what was available. There is nothing inherently wrong with the stock setup. Are some of the new options better....yes, but not to where you need to be worried about the stock setup. My only advice is to go your pace, enjoy, and don't stress about it. If someone passes you, don't go crazy thinking you need to keep up and get them back, this is where bad things happen. Ride your ride. Make sure your bike is fully prepped and ready to go well in advance so you can be fully confident in it. Also, tape over your speed display. If you are busy looking at your speed, you are missing the important things you should be looking at on the track. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I've got the fork caps literally flush with the top of the triple--lowered the fork legs as much as possible while still allowing the triple to have full contact with the tubes. Maybe a bit much compared to what some others have theirs set at, but I like it. In my experience, EBC pads are an incremental upgrade over stock. If you want to significantly increase initial bite and overall stopping power, get the Dunlopad HH+ compound. Part number for the 1125s is SDP993. | ||
| Lospice1 |
+1 to Jdugger post Chameleon, Rear brakes are useless under hard breaking when weight is shifted to the front. Trail braking and settling suspension, definitely use them. Warped front rotor from 1 track day is certainly an exception to the rule. In fact, I've never heard of it until your post. I have over 20 track days on my oem front with no such issues. I would recommend changing the brake fluid and ultimately getting a radial MC from a jap donor bike. That will make a world of difference and is probably the best bang for the buck upgrade. They can be had for less than $100. Have fun!! Will | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
@ Chameleon- Please resize your pics, you're blowing the whle Phorum, this is getting unreadable. To double clarify, I don't need general riding or track advice, I already run "Intermediate/lv 2, whatever you call it, and was a tech inspector at the last track day I did. Thanks for the noob advice, but I'm literally looking for setup advice for the 1125 because it's a unique bike. (I'm a Buell noob.) Such as- The SV had a heavy flywheel and I engine braked a lot, but the Buell doesn't, should I work on throttle blipping? Does the "slipper" clutch make that a non issue? Do you guys use/trust the slipper clutch? I know it's umm...hydraulic (or is it pneumatic?) It doesn't at all feel like the mechanical slipper clutch on the R6 I used to flog once in a while.... stuff like that. Also, I don't post in here much but I lurk a lot, and Jdugger is a wealth of information.  Normally I would agree with Jdugger's assertion that rear brakes are useless, hell that used to be my moto. It's stitched on the back of my leathers, and mere mortals read my embroidery as I blow by them on the brakes.....  That being said, the XB style stock rotor on the 1125R is the sloppiest, least confidence inspiring front brake setup I have ever used. It is the bike's only glaring weakness. I thought mine was warped, but then I rode a friend's XB and Lightning, and they both felt like crap too. All the motomags have panned the ZTL, and I defended it right up until I got one. It's good enough, but that's just not good enough. It may be the way the bike is engineered, or it may be that I just don't "trust" the front brake, but on this bike (and no other sportbike I've ever ridden) the rear brake does indeed do some work. I don't know about 30% but it's at least 20% Usually it's none percent, I friggin hate the rear brake. The wierdest thing? I don't "trust" the front brake, yet now I trail brake all the time, I never used to do that. Every other sportbike I've ridden, it was all front brake, get brakeing done hard and early, tip in. Now I'm hard front and rear, and I'm trail brakeing. Stoppies are out of the question though, which makes me sad. From what I've heard the EBR rotor and and radial brake master cylinder are fantastic, and are my next major upgrade. I've always run the EBC sintered pads, but Jdugger's got me thinking. My bike's previous owner was a sissy. Any grown man would buy an 1125, put 2000 miles on it in four years, and then sell it with chicken strips still on it, is a sissy. The mere fact he ever owned an 1125 is the only think keeping me from saying he had a giant vagina. But I digress. So my bike came from a sissy, and the Lightning and Firebolt I rode belonged to a 70 year old man, who rides like a 70 year old man. ( A very cool 70 year old man.) So it's possible, nay, probable that all three of those rotors are suffering from the buildup Jdugger mentioned. I'll take a whizz wheel (scotch brite) to the rotor and see if it clears things up a bit. Here's hopeing I can revise my poor stock rotor review. That's what I wanted to know about, thanks Jdugger!  Next question- I always run EBC sintered, should I go with that, or the EBR pads? What do you guys run? Next-next-question, paddock stands! My "el cheapo" rear stand doesn't work with the swingarm. I see in Chameleon's pics that he's got spools in the rear axle tube....I have spool hooks for my rear stand, but I still wouldn't be able to pull the rear wheel that way. Whats the standard here? Marvel at my halfassed body positionerry!!!  Brother in law chasing me on an AMA Supersport prepped bike....memories.  (Message edited by sir_wadsalot on June 20, 2013) | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Then there is something wrong with your system. There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to two finger at full braking floating the rear. I would be checking your pads for glazing while you're servicing it. I have used the EBR 2015 pads and the Vesrah's from EBR, both are fantastic. I tend to like the Vesrah a bit better, but my braking has improved from when I last used the 2015's and will be trying them again shortly. I have a set of EBC XX as a backup set, but have never used them. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
Thanks 99! Now we're getting somewhere! I get a pulsing in front at 20-35 mph at moderate to hard brakeing, and I def can't float the rear! I thought the rotor was starting to warp, but at high speeds or trail brakeing, it's buttery smooth, just not as strong as I'de like. The glazing is makeing more sense....it only starts acting up after the rotor's hot. It's funny, a guy I work just bought a '00 Gixxer 600, the first thing I did was bleed/clean his brakes and scrub his discs. It never occurred to me that a bike with this few miles might need it.  | ||
| Jdugger |
> should I work on throttle blipping? Yes, or at least rev matching/sliding the clutch out slowly. The 1125r has more engine braking than you estimate... you absolutely can make the rear step out on the clutch. > Does the "slipper" clutch make that a non issue? Do you guys use/trust the slipper clutch? No, and no. The 1125r does not have a traditional mechanical slipper clutch. Instead, vacuum from the throttle bodies is used to slightly actuate the clutch disengagement action. You can get a feel for this by taking note of the required lever pressure during acceleration vs. off-throttle while coasting to a stop. Calling this a slipper clutch is a big stretch, IMHO. Because, it means for the action to work at all you have to be absolutely ham-fisted about how you ride to benefit from it. If you make any effort to rev-match, you are defeating the vacuum and the "slipper" effect entirely. If you want a slipper clutch, get the Suter. I have one in my race bike, and I love it. On my teaching bike, I use the OEM clutch. It's *just fine* for track days and having fun. Just remember to put some thought into the smoothness of your riding... feather the clutch out and add some gas while doing it, just like the old days. > It may be the way the bike is engineered > The wierdest thing? I don't "trust" the front brake, > From what I've heard the EBR rotor and and radial brake > master cylinder are fantastic, and are my next major upgrade. I don't think it's the engineering at this point, I think it's poor component selection. The OEM rotor, mounting hardware, Master Cyl and other bits are fairly poor quality, IMHO. The MC in particular is a dated piece of junk that only performs well when absolutely freshly rebuilt. It should be discarded immediately if it's had old fluid sitting in it for some time. The Brembo RCS19 is an excellent upgrade, as are using Japanese OEM parts such as an MC from an R6. You will appreciate the lever feel much more from these parts over the OEM stuff. The EBR 5mm rotor and hardware mounting kit are also excellent upgrades. Highly recommended. Fresh RBF600 fluid works wonders. I change mine 3-4 times per year. That's your starting point for sure, followed by pads, MC & rotor kit. There are some more exotic things you can do to help, too, but as a level 2 rider, I'm going to suggest you don't need them yet. The braking system on the 1125r as implemented in OEM kit really is a weakness of the bike when it comes to track days and racing. The good news is most of the braking issues have been sorted on these bikes, and the parts to upgrade it to an acceptably performing system are readily available. Plan on doing it. > I've always run the EBC sintered pads, but Jdugger's got me thinking. The "race" 4HH pads from EBC are "OK". I ran them for a long time. They dust enormously. They are probably fine for you, but aren't my first choice. My personal favorites are the "fatback" 2015 Nissin pads from EBR. They are probably not a good street choice, but make an excellent race choice. Very durable, strong initial bite. Confident. While expensive, I find they are so durable they are actually not so bad measured in cost-per-lap. > So it's possible, nay, probable that all three of those rotors are suffering > from the buildup Jdugger mentioned. This is what a rotor that's getting use looks like:  I've got a pic around here somewhere that shows it getting almost black at the edges from the heat, but couldn't find it quickly. Anyway, you get the idea. A brake on one of these bikes that's getting use is NOT silver colored. It's gold, blue, red and all the colors of the rainbow. It looks like someone took a torch to it. > I'll take a whizz wheel (scotch brite) to the rotor and see if it clears things up a bit. Eh, some 120 grit done by hand is awesome. > Marvel at my halfassed body positionerry!!! I struggle everyday with making the best of how I am on the bike, trying to let the bike so what it does best -- go fast. I know I am the problem, and it will always be that way. but... once in awhile, it all comes together. This is yours truly having fun at Circuit of the Americas a couple of weeks ago... http://www.hart-photography.com/photocart/index.ph p?do=photocart&viewImage=2088421 | ||
| General_tso |
sir-wadsalot, As Jim suggested, at a minimum change your brake fluid, brake pads (Nissin 2015s rock) and deglaze your rotor and you will find stoppies are no problem. Upgrading the rotor and master cylinder will provide better feel and will almost eliminate fading late in a race / track session. To editorialize on this, I routinely get the rear wheel dancing off the ground when entering corners on the race track. I find I have to release brake pressure ever so slightly at the turn in point to get the rear settled and will still trail brake the bike into turns that require it. Front brake confidence is not an issue when properly set-up. Another recommendation is that you not run a race rear tire with the stock shock. The spring rate is too soft and from my experience you will destroy tires due to cold tearing over a day or so. Best bet is a good Trackday tire. If you decide you like the bike enough to invest more $$ the Showa Race Rear shock offered by EBR is a great deal. Jim, You look like a GP Star with that body position!} | ||
| 99buellx1 |
J - how did you like COTA? Man, i hunted all over the place for this rotor picture. This was after one 7 lap session on a brand new rotor with the Vesrah pads. From here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/694597.html?1348777187  And, since we're posting track shots, this is probably my favorite:  And here is a vid showing my throttle hand, yup, I blip: | ||
| Jdugger |
General brings up a good point about tires on these bikes... I have really struggled with setup and selecting tires that are shredded in just a few sessions. Right now, I'm running the new "B" compund Michelin 190 slick on DSB-spec 5.75" wheels, with 26.5 hot-off-warmers, and I'm having very good results... finally. I find that the A and B (soft and medium) work well on these bikes, but the C (hard) compound actually tears/wears faster at many tracks than the B. It can be rather counter-intuitive. Up until the Michelins, the only other tire that didn't tear to crap was the Pirelli Superbike Pro, which is a trackday tire. It's not as fast or nearly as grippy as the Michelins, but it wears like nails. | ||
| Jdugger |
> J - how did you like COTA? It's like a dream. You simply cannot imagine the experience. Do you drag your fairings? I cut a hole in mine this weekend at NOLA!  | ||
| Froggy |
Yea something for sure is wrong with your bike, stoppies are quite easy bone stock (assuming nothing wrong), in fact the world record for the longest stoppie was done by Craig Jones on a stock Buell Firebolt with the stock ZTL setup.
I also agree with this, the stock components are sufficient for most on typical street riding, but for what you are doing you will want to upgrade to more race ready components. The engineering and design of the ZTL system itself is solid. The pulsing you are experiencing can be due to several things, but a EBR rotor and mounting hardware will cure it for you. | ||
| General_tso |
Sir wadsalot, Was cleaning out the garage and realized I have an OE front rotor laying around. It's used but didn't exhibit any pulsing when I removed it. It has a little flash rust on it. I'd be willing to send it to you if you can't deglaze your current rotor. Send me a PM if interested. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Nope, hasn't been an issue, though they have been cut back just a touch where they would normally go over the clutch cover. Though, mine just don't look like they stick out as far as yours. (different manufacturers also) | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
I just got a rear Rosso2 a few months ago, when I was broke, had a giant bolt in my stock rear tire, and wasn't planning on doing a track day. So the front will be a Rosso2 or Corsa.....I know you're not supposed to mix, but I used to run Corsa 3 front and standard Diablo rear for front end stick and rear highway mileage. I assume the Rosso2/Rosso Corsa combo will feel much the same. That being said, my prior track days were done on matched Corsas, so feel free to make with the "don't mix tire profiles" advice and horror stories. I'll take them into account. If I had the funds to play with I'd go with the Corsas or SB Pros, but I don't, so this will be a "fun day" not a "Fast Day". I was willing to Wad the Suzuki in the name of speed, I'm not willing to wad the Buell for anything. I just wanna stretch it's legs, work on my body positioning, and hopefully hurt some gixxer thou feelings in the curves. Them I4 superbike guys get all butthurt about it, it's funny... so yeah hopefully I'll just run beginner and feel the bike out, make myself a hole and try to stay in it, or start at the front and just stay there. Whatever works. So I'll change the fluid, I was gonna do it anyway, scrub the rotor, and try the EBR pads. Going by what you have said I'll invest in some good brake fluid as well. Thanks for the offer of the stock rotor, I would take you up on it, but I don't think I need to. We'll save it for another young'n on another day. I'll get a pic of my rotor tomorrow, it's just kinda' black, I think. Oh yeah, and you guys look fantastic, and thanks for all the good advice! Some of you are way advanced....Jdugger, what do you teach? | ||
| Jdugger |
> Jdugger, what do you teach I teach for a local track day organization called RideSmart. We do events on mostly Texas tracks, but in previous years have had events at NOLA, Topeka and Barber. I usually teach our new Level-1 riders, where I feel I can make the biggest difference, but also do some intermediate classes and one-on-one program. I really enjoy it... | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
Jdugger- Best job ever! When I get myself straightened out a little better I'de like to become an MSF instructor.... ....and I have the MC from my SV1K, you're saying I could just bolt that on and it would work more betterer than the stock one? There's not ummm...pressuer diferential issues or anything like that, just any ole MC will work? Still don't know what to do about a rear stand. Here's my rotor. Sorry the pic's not great, but my phone was dying as I took the one I got. I'm guesing that light black color is the buildup?  | ||
| Jdugger |
> Jdugger- Best job ever! Sure, it's tons of fun. But, you do it for love, not money. I actually lose money coaching -- it costs considerably more than I'm compensated. > ....and I have the MC from my SV1K, you're > saying I could just bolt that on and it > would work more betterer than the stock Possibly. If the bore and ratio are 18x20, you are probably fine. If not, it may not work so well. > Still don't know what to do about a rear stand. The pitbull made for these bikes is ideal. It really works best and allows for easy wheel changes. It supports from beneath and behind the swing arm. > Here's my rotor. Yea, I can see the spotting typical of a deposit problem. Some 100-grit by hand on that rotor and then some hard stops to re-bed the pads will work wonders. Fresh pads aren't a bad idea at all. ... and USE the brakes, dang it!  As one of my friends put it this past weekend when getting passed on the inside going into a corner:
| ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
Hmmm....Pitbulls are expensive....it's on the wishlist. What about an "El Cheapo" solution? maybe something to work with a "normal" rear stand? Spools of some sort? I have an ATV jack I can use but that' won't work once I go to an aftermarket exhaust and lose the stock muffler as a jack point. I'll definately be changing pads, and I'll check on the bore & stroke of the SV1K's MC. Damn Bernoulli and his laws! Trust me, the brakes will get used, I used to float the rear at all stops for practice when I lived back up in'nem woods. I also looped the SV once so I'm afraid of wheelies, thus I would make up for this shortcoming with stoppies. Bass akwards, I know. That was my one glaring problem on the track, I would pass.....large groups of, well, let's say, more sensible riders,on the brakes, I never ran off but I would push the shittastic SV brakes so hard I'de end up too deep and charging the turn sometimes. I was really bummed out about the brakes on the '25, I was honestly considering not tracking it because of them. I guess since it had 2K miles and not a sratch on it, I was looking at it like a new bike. As a veteran mechanic with 8 years riding, I should really know better. I can't wait to fix it! My life will be complete! Thanks again, this would have all been wonkey to figure out on my own at the track! If I can get the brakes where I want them.... | ||
| 99buellx1 |
That rotor is really shiny. Glazed pads, I would almost make a bet on. A simple thing to try is to take the pads out, and scuff them up. I've always done this by placing them on some concrete and doing some figure 8s. (you dont want polished concrete, but not crazy rough either) | ||
| Jdugger |
> Hmmm....Pitbulls are expensive....it's on the wishlist. So is dropping a bike off POS stands. The "problem" with the 1125r is the very wide swingarm to account for the belt and such. So, standard stands don't really fit that well, and the '08 model doesn't have spools, anyway. You CAN get the brakes where they need to be, it just takes some money. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
EDIT- The EBR pads are $185, I shall be running the old EBC standard for $35! Do you mean to say the later model (2010?)had spool threads? Naaah, it'll just take some work and better pads. I always say get it to proper stock condition first, then improve. Need to learn to take my own advice.  I watched your rear tire change vid on youtube, I see what type it needs now. Don't think I can get those type of cradles to fit my POS stand, but they make a T-Rex for it. I have a T-Rex front stand, half the price and definately not a POS. I'll probably get that....budgetary constraints and all. But no, the dirt cheap, red, Ebay special I have now ain't gonna cut mustard. By the way, that digital torque wrench is pretty trick. (Message edited by sir_wadsalot on June 21, 2013) | ||
| Chameleon |
2009+ bikes have the spools on the swingarm. | ||
| Johndb |
My 1125R with a date of April 2008, VIN ending B02093 has 6mm tapped bosses on the lower edge of the swingarm. I have not seen many 2008's with this.  |
